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Why do the Steelers keep there 1st round pick?
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troofax wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
Troofax wrote:
Steelers101 kids.

Someday I'll be like 43.


FIFY
I used to do that........10 years ago,or at best when you and 43 jumped on the wagon...


Still obsessed with me, I see.

Your constant need to talk about me just proves how Im in your head all the time.

Keep jawing Trollfax....like I said, no one here takes your uneducated opinion seriously...except you of course.
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JDLefebvre


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Keep jawing Trollfax....like I said, no one here takes your uneducated opinion seriously...except you of course.


Laughing


I see what you did there!!! Wink
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steelerfreak76


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
You need a trading partner and you have to get value for your pick, the second round despite all our beliefs doesn't always pan out as well so it would depend on the year as value in the 2nd is a season by season variable.


THIS X1000000000000000000000000, and is pretty much the only thing that needs to be said.

It gets annoying when fans act like trading down is as simple as just wanting to do it and then doing it. I, as much as anyone, would like to see us trade down this year. Im not holding my breath and I wont be upset if we dont.

The only way Id ever be mad that we didnt trade down is if I somehow got info that the Steelers had a good deal to move down and didnt take it, and then reached on a player.

Ill also add that the Steelers stay true to their board. Colbert has said that they have listened to trade offers in the past, but said if there is a player they like they will take that player. Fans may not like the player on their draft board, but its not our call.


Just because fans and talking heads say said player is a reach at a certain spot, doesn't mean anything. Every team makes up their own draft board and ranks players accordingly. I'll use Cleveland as an example, when they drafted T.J. Ward a couple years ago. All the talking heads ranted that he could've been had 2 or 3 rounds later. Ward is one of the top safeties and no one is questioning that pick now. And last year they drafted Mitchell Schwartz with the 37th pick. Browns fans were PO'd, but Schwartz started day 1 at RT and did very good.

Teams pay scouts a lot of money, so they know better than us and the talking heads. Sometimes the talking heads are right, but the majority of the time the scouts are right.


As to the OP, I didn't read all the replies. So I apologize if this has already been stated.

Why do the Steelers keep there 1st round pick? First their track record in the 1st round is much better than that of the 2nd. Most of the time the Steelers were picking at the end of the round, so any trades would've kicked them into the 2nd. JDLefebvre put a list of some of the first rounds picks since 1998 that were key contributors in keeping the Steelers successful the past 10+ years. But for every first round star, their's a terrible second round pick to follow. The question you should be asking is "Why do the Steelers keep there 2nd round pick?

All the great selections the Steelers have made in the first, are usually followed by a terrible 2nd round pick. Players like Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Limas Sweed. Those are the picks that are killing this team, not what they've done in the first round.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelerfreak76 wrote:
Just because fans and talking heads say said player is a reach at a certain spot, doesn't mean anything. Every team makes up their own draft board and ranks players accordingly.


Did you not read the sentence immediately after the one you bolded?

43M wrote:
Ill also add that the Steelers stay true to their board. Colbert has said that they have listened to trade offers in the past, but said if there is a player they like they will take that player. Fans may not like the player on their draft board, but its not our call.


So yes...I agree with that.

But while everyone has their own personal rankings of these players, there are still picks can be labled as a reach.




steelerfreak76 wrote:
All the great selections the Steelers have made in the first, are usually followed by a terrible 2nd round pick. Players like Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Limas Sweed. Those are the picks that are killing this team, not what they've done in the first round.


I completely agree with this.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelerfreak76 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
You need a trading partner and you have to get value for your pick, the second round despite all our beliefs doesn't always pan out as well so it would depend on the year as value in the 2nd is a season by season variable.


THIS X1000000000000000000000000, and is pretty much the only thing that needs to be said.

It gets annoying when fans act like trading down is as simple as just wanting to do it and then doing it. I, as much as anyone, would like to see us trade down this year. Im not holding my breath and I wont be upset if we dont.

The only way Id ever be mad that we didnt trade down is if I somehow got info that the Steelers had a good deal to move down and didnt take it, and then reached on a player.

Ill also add that the Steelers stay true to their board. Colbert has said that they have listened to trade offers in the past, but said if there is a player they like they will take that player. Fans may not like the player on their draft board, but its not our call.


Just because fans and talking heads say said player is a reach at a certain spot, doesn't mean anything. Every team makes up their own draft board and ranks players accordingly. I'll use Cleveland as an example, when they drafted T.J. Ward a couple years ago. All the talking heads ranted that he could've been had 2 or 3 rounds later. Ward is one of the top safeties and no one is questioning that pick now. And last year they drafted Mitchell Schwartz with the 37th pick. Browns fans were PO'd, but Schwartz started day 1 at RT and did very good.

Teams pay scouts a lot of money, so they know better than us and the talking heads. Sometimes the talking heads are right, but the majority of the time the scouts are right.


As to the OP, I didn't read all the replies. So I apologize if this has already been stated.

Why do the Steelers keep there 1st round pick? First their track record in the 1st round is much better than that of the 2nd. Most of the time the Steelers were picking at the end of the round, so any trades would've kicked them into the 2nd. JDLefebvre put a list of some of the first rounds picks since 1998 that were key contributors in keeping the Steelers successful the past 10+ years. But for every first round star, their's a terrible second round pick to follow. The question you should be asking is "Why do the Steelers keep there 2nd round pick?

All the great selections the Steelers have made in the first, are usually followed by a terrible 2nd round pick. Players like Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Limas Sweed. Those are the picks that are killing this team, not what they've done in the first round.


I disagree with the second round pick thing as you mentioned just a few but there were some good 2nd round players taken since 1998

2000 Marvel Smith who I believe was a very good pick

2001 Kendrell Bell if not for injuries he was the first L. Timmons. I'd consider him a good pick

2002 Antwan Randel El was a good pick

2005 Bryant McFadden was a decent 2nd round pick

2007 Woodley no explanation needed

2010-2012 Worilds, Gilbert and Adams the jury is still out.

So the years that produced nothing aren't as many as some believe. Also there are a few years the Steelers traded out of the 2nd round.

1998, 1999, 2003, 2004 and 2008. That's just 5 2nd round picks since 1998 that gave the Steelers nothing.

2000, 2001, 2002, 2005 and 2007 have all produce for the Steelers maybe not all of them were Pro Bowlers or All Pros but they did produce.

These last few drafts will go a long way IMO in determining how bad it can/could be.

Now I agree that the success rate for 2nd picks isn't as high as the first, but I believe the Steelers gamble a bit more with there second round picks. Looking at the drafts since 1998 it seems like almost every pick was a project.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
steelerfreak76 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
You need a trading partner and you have to get value for your pick, the second round despite all our beliefs doesn't always pan out as well so it would depend on the year as value in the 2nd is a season by season variable.


THIS X1000000000000000000000000, and is pretty much the only thing that needs to be said.

It gets annoying when fans act like trading down is as simple as just wanting to do it and then doing it. I, as much as anyone, would like to see us trade down this year. Im not holding my breath and I wont be upset if we dont.

The only way Id ever be mad that we didnt trade down is if I somehow got info that the Steelers had a good deal to move down and didnt take it, and then reached on a player.

Ill also add that the Steelers stay true to their board. Colbert has said that they have listened to trade offers in the past, but said if there is a player they like they will take that player. Fans may not like the player on their draft board, but its not our call.


Just because fans and talking heads say said player is a reach at a certain spot, doesn't mean anything. Every team makes up their own draft board and ranks players accordingly. I'll use Cleveland as an example, when they drafted T.J. Ward a couple years ago. All the talking heads ranted that he could've been had 2 or 3 rounds later. Ward is one of the top safeties and no one is questioning that pick now. And last year they drafted Mitchell Schwartz with the 37th pick. Browns fans were PO'd, but Schwartz started day 1 at RT and did very good.

Teams pay scouts a lot of money, so they know better than us and the talking heads. Sometimes the talking heads are right, but the majority of the time the scouts are right.


As to the OP, I didn't read all the replies. So I apologize if this has already been stated.

Why do the Steelers keep there 1st round pick? First their track record in the 1st round is much better than that of the 2nd. Most of the time the Steelers were picking at the end of the round, so any trades would've kicked them into the 2nd. JDLefebvre put a list of some of the first rounds picks since 1998 that were key contributors in keeping the Steelers successful the past 10+ years. But for every first round star, their's a terrible second round pick to follow. The question you should be asking is "Why do the Steelers keep there 2nd round pick?

All the great selections the Steelers have made in the first, are usually followed by a terrible 2nd round pick. Players like Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Limas Sweed. Those are the picks that are killing this team, not what they've done in the first round.


I disagree with the second round pick thing as you mentioned just a few but there were some good 2nd round players taken since 1998

2000 Marvel Smith who I believe was a very good pick

2001 Kendrell Bell if not for injuries he was the first L. Timmons. I'd consider him a good pick

2002 Antwan Randel El was a good pick

2005 Bryant McFadden was a decent 2nd round pick

2007 Woodley no explanation needed

2010-2012 Worilds, Gilbert and Adams the jury is still out.

So the years that produced nothing aren't as many as some believe. Also there are a few years the Steelers traded out of the 2nd round.

1998, 1999, 2003, 2004 and 2008. That's just 5 2nd round picks since 1998 that gave the Steelers nothing.

2000, 2001, 2002, 2005 and 2007 have all produce for the Steelers maybe not all of them were Pro Bowlers or All Pros but they did produce.

These last few drafts will go a long way IMO in determining how bad it can/could be.

Now I agree that the success rate for 2nd picks isn't as high as the first, but I believe the Steelers gamble a bit more with there second round picks. Looking at the drafts since 1998 it seems like almost every pick was a project.


Think he is talking about more recent picks.

I wouldnt limit it to 2nd round picks though.

I think some fans have unrealistic expectations of the type of success to realistically expect in a draft, but good teams have to be able to find some players after the first round....which has been our problem over the last 8 years or so.

The need to hit on players beyond the 1st round is even more important for a team that doesnt use free agency outside of signing backups and role players.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
steelerfreak76 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
You need a trading partner and you have to get value for your pick, the second round despite all our beliefs doesn't always pan out as well so it would depend on the year as value in the 2nd is a season by season variable.


THIS X1000000000000000000000000, and is pretty much the only thing that needs to be said.

It gets annoying when fans act like trading down is as simple as just wanting to do it and then doing it. I, as much as anyone, would like to see us trade down this year. Im not holding my breath and I wont be upset if we dont.

The only way Id ever be mad that we didnt trade down is if I somehow got info that the Steelers had a good deal to move down and didnt take it, and then reached on a player.

Ill also add that the Steelers stay true to their board. Colbert has said that they have listened to trade offers in the past, but said if there is a player they like they will take that player. Fans may not like the player on their draft board, but its not our call.


Just because fans and talking heads say said player is a reach at a certain spot, doesn't mean anything. Every team makes up their own draft board and ranks players accordingly. I'll use Cleveland as an example, when they drafted T.J. Ward a couple years ago. All the talking heads ranted that he could've been had 2 or 3 rounds later. Ward is one of the top safeties and no one is questioning that pick now. And last year they drafted Mitchell Schwartz with the 37th pick. Browns fans were PO'd, but Schwartz started day 1 at RT and did very good.

Teams pay scouts a lot of money, so they know better than us and the talking heads. Sometimes the talking heads are right, but the majority of the time the scouts are right.


As to the OP, I didn't read all the replies. So I apologize if this has already been stated.

Why do the Steelers keep there 1st round pick? First their track record in the 1st round is much better than that of the 2nd. Most of the time the Steelers were picking at the end of the round, so any trades would've kicked them into the 2nd. JDLefebvre put a list of some of the first rounds picks since 1998 that were key contributors in keeping the Steelers successful the past 10+ years. But for every first round star, their's a terrible second round pick to follow. The question you should be asking is "Why do the Steelers keep there 2nd round pick?

All the great selections the Steelers have made in the first, are usually followed by a terrible 2nd round pick. Players like Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Limas Sweed. Those are the picks that are killing this team, not what they've done in the first round.


I disagree with the second round pick thing as you mentioned just a few but there were some good 2nd round players taken since 1998

2000 Marvel Smith who I believe was a very good pick

2001 Kendrell Bell if not for injuries he was the first L. Timmons. I'd consider him a good pick

2002 Antwan Randel El was a good pick

2005 Bryant McFadden was a decent 2nd round pick

2007 Woodley no explanation needed

2010-2012 Worilds, Gilbert and Adams the jury is still out.

So the years that produced nothing aren't as many as some believe. Also there are a few years the Steelers traded out of the 2nd round.

1998, 1999, 2003, 2004 and 2008. That's just 5 2nd round picks since 1998 that gave the Steelers nothing.

2000, 2001, 2002, 2005 and 2007 have all produce for the Steelers maybe not all of them were Pro Bowlers or All Pros but they did produce.

These last few drafts will go a long way IMO in determining how bad it can/could be.

Now I agree that the success rate for 2nd picks isn't as high as the first, but I believe the Steelers gamble a bit more with there second round picks. Looking at the drafts since 1998 it seems like almost every pick was a project.


Think he is talking about more recent picks.

I wouldnt limit it to 2nd round picks though.

I think some fans have unrealistic expectations of the type of success to realistically expect in a draft, but good teams have to be able to find some players after the first round....which has been our problem over the last 8 years or so.

The need to hit on players beyond the 1st round is even more important for a team that doesnt use free agency outside of signing backups and role players.


Fans have to also consider what kind of team the Steelers are when your consistently competitive there sometimes just isn't much room for new players. Now if the Steelers are a 8-8 team or worse for multiple season then I get the logic of hitting on more picks, but to piggy back on that. If thats the case then those later picks would get more chances as the opportunities would be there to become key contributors.

But since 2004 the Steelers haven't had much turnover, so the position are far few and in between.

Max Starks was a 3rd round pick for instance and I believe he gave the Steelers just what they expect and maybe moe.

Trai Essex same position but he gave the Steelers a viable backup wasn't starter material but for a 3rd round pick he contributed. Even though it was on a lesser level. Same goes for Chris Kemoeatu.

I just believe fans are expecting to much out of the Steelers drafts when there really wasn't or hasn't been much room. Especially with how the Steelers value there veteran players.

The Steelers believe in there starters even when the media/fans don't.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josh C Smith wrote:
Trust me if these trades where out there the Steelers would probably make the trade. Its just most teams only trade future 1s unless they are desperate to trade up for a guy and that guy they are desperate for usually doesn't fall the the Steelers picks since we usually select towards the end of the round. I don't think we should trade back this year though unless all the impact guys, potential stars like Jarvis Jones, Star (whatever you spell his last name is) are gone which could definintly happen. But I don't see to many teams willing to morgage their future for the guys in this draft class at 17.



That is a very good point. If you really think about it, if you really look at the 2013 Draft and you had to pick a few teams that you would say might be desperate, who would it be?

Here's my list, in order of most desperate (I listed 5 teams):

1) Buffalo Bills: They NEED to get a QB, preferrably Geno Smith but at least EJ Manuel; They pick at #8..there's 0 reason to even consider a trade with us..makes no sense.

2) Arizona Cardinals: All you have to do is look at their recent history of FA signings to see how desperate these guys are. Their fans must be getting stir crazy and the Cardinals need to rebuild that OL yesterday. Again..top 10 draftee, no reason to trade with us.

3) Philadelphia Eagles: They have't won a Super Bowl...well..EVER. They almost made my #1 spot. They are likely to go OL, CB, or LB here (although they could surprise with a Geno Smith pick). They pick in the top 5..there is absolutely no logical reason they would even consider moving back...and why would the Steelers want to?

4) New York Jets: Again they pick ahead of us..no reason they'd trade back. I don't care what the Jets say, they're desperate, they got more issues than Sports Illustrated.

5) Jacksonville Jaguars: Probably could've been first on the list. They played in a Conference Championship once did you know that? Yeah..since then they haven't done crap and I can't even believe fans are showing up to the stadium quite frankly. Blaine Gabbert might very well have been a huge mistake but at the same time, there isn't any positions they don't outside of RB imo. They're the #2 overall selection...there is 0 reason we would even attempt to trade up and there is even less reason that they would want to trade back.


So, spinning off of the "desperate teams" statement, the bottom line is, desperate teams, Pick Top 10 for good reason. The higher you pick the more expensive it is for a team to acquire your pick. The Steelers need, imo, to trade back not up and that's not an easy feat to accomplish. Not many teams in the 20's and 30's of the draft are that desperate to do so.
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steelerfreak76


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
steelerfreak76 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
You need a trading partner and you have to get value for your pick, the second round despite all our beliefs doesn't always pan out as well so it would depend on the year as value in the 2nd is a season by season variable.


THIS X1000000000000000000000000, and is pretty much the only thing that needs to be said.

It gets annoying when fans act like trading down is as simple as just wanting to do it and then doing it. I, as much as anyone, would like to see us trade down this year. Im not holding my breath and I wont be upset if we dont.

The only way Id ever be mad that we didnt trade down is if I somehow got info that the Steelers had a good deal to move down and didnt take it, and then reached on a player.

Ill also add that the Steelers stay true to their board. Colbert has said that they have listened to trade offers in the past, but said if there is a player they like they will take that player. Fans may not like the player on their draft board, but its not our call.


Just because fans and talking heads say said player is a reach at a certain spot, doesn't mean anything. Every team makes up their own draft board and ranks players accordingly. I'll use Cleveland as an example, when they drafted T.J. Ward a couple years ago. All the talking heads ranted that he could've been had 2 or 3 rounds later. Ward is one of the top safeties and no one is questioning that pick now. And last year they drafted Mitchell Schwartz with the 37th pick. Browns fans were PO'd, but Schwartz started day 1 at RT and did very good.

Teams pay scouts a lot of money, so they know better than us and the talking heads. Sometimes the talking heads are right, but the majority of the time the scouts are right.


As to the OP, I didn't read all the replies. So I apologize if this has already been stated.

Why do the Steelers keep there 1st round pick? First their track record in the 1st round is much better than that of the 2nd. Most of the time the Steelers were picking at the end of the round, so any trades would've kicked them into the 2nd. JDLefebvre put a list of some of the first rounds picks since 1998 that were key contributors in keeping the Steelers successful the past 10+ years. But for every first round star, their's a terrible second round pick to follow. The question you should be asking is "Why do the Steelers keep there 2nd round pick?

All the great selections the Steelers have made in the first, are usually followed by a terrible 2nd round pick. Players like Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Limas Sweed. Those are the picks that are killing this team, not what they've done in the first round.


I disagree with the second round pick thing as you mentioned just a few but there were some good 2nd round players taken since 1998

2000 Marvel Smith who I believe was a very good pick

2001 Kendrell Bell if not for injuries he was the first L. Timmons. I'd consider him a good pick

2002 Antwan Randel El was a good pick

2005 Bryant McFadden was a decent 2nd round pick

2007 Woodley no explanation needed

2010-2012 Worilds, Gilbert and Adams the jury is still out.

So the years that produced nothing aren't as many as some believe. Also there are a few years the Steelers traded out of the 2nd round.

1998, 1999, 2003, 2004 and 2008. That's just 5 2nd round picks since 1998 that gave the Steelers nothing.

2000, 2001, 2002, 2005 and 2007 have all produce for the Steelers maybe not all of them were Pro Bowlers or All Pros but they did produce.

These last few drafts will go a long way IMO in determining how bad it can/could be.

Now I agree that the success rate for 2nd picks isn't as high as the first, but I believe the Steelers gamble a bit more with there second round picks. Looking at the drafts since 1998 it seems like almost every pick was a project.


Think he is talking about more recent picks.

I wouldnt limit it to 2nd round picks though.

I think some fans have unrealistic expectations of the type of success to realistically expect in a draft, but good teams have to be able to find some players after the first round....which has been our problem over the last 8 years or so.

The need to hit on players beyond the 1st round is even more important for a team that doesnt use free agency outside of signing backups and role players.


Fans have to also consider what kind of team the Steelers are when your consistently competitive there sometimes just isn't much room for new players. Now if the Steelers are a 8-8 team or worse for multiple season then I get the logic of hitting on more picks, but to piggy back on that. If thats the case then those later picks would get more chances as the opportunities would be there to become key contributors.

But since 2004 the Steelers haven't had much turnover, so the position are far few and in between.

Max Starks was a 3rd round pick for instance and I believe he gave the Steelers just what they expect and maybe moe.

Trai Essex same position but he gave the Steelers a viable backup wasn't starter material but for a 3rd round pick he contributed. Even though it was on a lesser level. Same goes for Chris Kemoeatu.

I just believe fans are expecting to much out of the Steelers drafts when there really wasn't or hasn't been much room. Especially with how the Steelers value there veteran players.

The Steelers believe in there starters even when the media/fans don't.


Your argument that since 2004 the Steelers haven't had much turnover, so the position are far few and in between it not a very good one. I'm not delusional and think that every second round pick is going to be a star. But let's assume that their wasn't so many flops in the second round as of late.

2003 Alonzo Jackson - If Jackson wasn't a complete bust, the Steelers don't have to use another 2nd round pick 4 years later on Woodley. Not saying Woodley hasn't been good, but they instead could've used that pick address other holes.

2004 Ricardo Colclough - If Colclough wasn't complete garbage, the Steelers wouldn't have had to use a 2nd round the very next season on McFadden.

2005 Bryant McFadden - McFadden wasn't a bust, but let's not kid are selves he wasn't anything special. He was just an average starter at best and was out of the league before he turned 30.

2008 Limas Sweed - If Sweed could catch, the Steeler possibly never draft Mike Wallace.

Now I'm not saying that I wish those "bust" would've worked out so we never would have drafted Woodley, Wallace, or even Keenan Lewis. But instead proving that if those players played up to expectations they would've had a "position" on the team.

From 2003-2009 the Steelers have had 5 second round picks. 3 of them never saw the end of their rookie contract (Jackson, Colclough, & Sweed) , 1 (McFadden) was allowed to walk after his rookie contract. Woodley is the only one to receive a second contract and he's one more offseason like last year away from being the answer at nose tackle.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But in all fairness, you could do that for a lot of teams.

If we didn't draft Jackson, we wouldn't have had Woodley perhaps, who, when in shape, is one of the best OLB's in the game.

If we didn't screw up at CB twice there, we wouldn't have had Allen or Lewis.

If we didn't screw up at WR, we wouldn't have who we have now.

It's a snowball effect really, sometimes it doesn't work out, and sometimes it does. It's the life of the NFL Draft. It's a crap shoot. TOO many people put too much weight into NCAA Statistics. I've said this before and I'll say it again, your rushing records, passing records, tackle #'s, sack #'s, etc. don't mean crap in the NFL. There are thousands of kids each year that don't go on to play in the NFL. Even the "elite" teams have many kids that don't make it to the next level so you can say "this kid played against elite talent" all you want but..did he? Is every single player that played on his opposition in the NFL right now? if the answer is no, are they truly elite? By NCAA standards perhaps, but in the NFL, NCAA Elite doesn't match up imo. If they did there wouldn't be a 'learning curve' for rookies.

What's that have to do with this thread exactly? My point is, we can debate our success and failures in the draft all we want but we're not the only team to have them and yet we're still one of the most competitive and successful teams in NFL History. In fact, if you're counting Lombardi's we ARE the most successful team in history. I'm just fine with where we're at. We all knew the age would catch up to us eventually and it has. So we reload, not rebuild and we get back on that horse and ride into the Super Bowl Sunset. I have no problem with that. Relax, inhale, exhale, take a nap, read some SI, watch some Sports Center, do whatever it is that makes your nerves stop bouncing. It'll all be just fine.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
But in all fairness, you could do that for a lot of teams.

If we didn't draft Jackson, we wouldn't have had Woodley perhaps, who, when in shape, is one of the best OLB's in the game.

If we didn't screw up at CB twice there, we wouldn't have had Allen or Lewis.

If we didn't screw up at WR, we wouldn't have who we have now.

It's a snowball effect really, sometimes it doesn't work out, and sometimes it does. It's the life of the NFL Draft. It's a crap shoot. TOO many people put too much weight into NCAA Statistics. I've said this before and I'll say it again, your rushing records, passing records, tackle #'s, sack #'s, etc. don't mean crap in the NFL. There are thousands of kids each year that don't go on to play in the NFL. Even the "elite" teams have many kids that don't make it to the next level so you can say "this kid played against elite talent" all you want but..did he? Is every single player that played on his opposition in the NFL right now? if the answer is no, are they truly elite? By NCAA standards perhaps, but in the NFL, NCAA Elite doesn't match up imo. If they did there wouldn't be a 'learning curve' for rookies.

What's that have to do with this thread exactly? My point is, we can debate our success and failures in the draft all we want but we're not the only team to have them and yet we're still one of the most competitive and successful teams in NFL History. In fact, if you're counting Lombardi's we ARE the most successful team in history. I'm just fine with where we're at. We all knew the age would catch up to us eventually and it has. So we reload, not rebuild and we get back on that horse and ride into the Super Bowl Sunset. I have no problem with that. Relax, inhale, exhale, take a nap, read some SI, watch some Sports Center, do whatever it is that makes your nerves stop bouncing. It'll all be just fine.


I'm not saying if we didn't draft those players. SteelProven said
Quote:
"But since 2004 the Steelers haven't had much turnover, so the position are far few and in between."


I was simply saying that isn't a good argument. If those players would've turned out like the FO expected they would still be on the team and pushed some of the older talent out and changed future picks.

I'm not naive and think that every pick turns out, but a 20% success rate in the 2nd round over the past 7 years is more alarming then whether or not the Steelers trade down in the first round.

As to your question, "what's this have to do with this thread exactly?" If you read my other post were I said "

Quote:
Why do the Steelers keep there 1st round pick? First their track record in the 1st round is much better than that of the 2nd. Most of the time the Steelers were picking at the end of the round, so any trades would've kicked them into the 2nd. JDLefebvre put a list of some of the first rounds picks since 1998 that were key contributors in keeping the Steelers successful the past 10+ years. But for every first round star, their's a terrible second round pick to follow. The question you should be asking is "Why do the Steelers keep there 2nd round pick?


I'm simply stating that with their recent track record in the 2nd, maybe instead of trading down in the 1st . They should look more at trading down in the 2nd or trading back into the 1st. I know many in this forum would think that's a terrible idea, but I'd rather give up some extra picks to get a top player. Than take another 2nd round bust in waiting.

wwhickok wrote:
Relax, inhale, exhale, take a nap, read some SI, watch some Sports Center, do whatever it is that makes your nerves stop bouncing. It'll all be just fine.


I know many on here have this I know everything about my team complex. And think that every time someone expresses their opinion about something, they been watching too many sports shows or reading too many articles written/reported by talking gas bags. The only time my TV is on a sports channel is to watch a game, not listen to a bunch of talking heads spew garbage. So i'm fine I don't need a "nap" or a reminder on how to breathe.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steeler freak that comment wasnt as much directed to to.you beyond the intial specific player referencing. The last part about the nap and stuff was not remotely directed to.you. It was simply a sarcastic joke for the general over reactors.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelerfreak76 wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
steelerfreak76 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
You need a trading partner and you have to get value for your pick, the second round despite all our beliefs doesn't always pan out as well so it would depend on the year as value in the 2nd is a season by season variable.


THIS X1000000000000000000000000, and is pretty much the only thing that needs to be said.

It gets annoying when fans act like trading down is as simple as just wanting to do it and then doing it. I, as much as anyone, would like to see us trade down this year. Im not holding my breath and I wont be upset if we dont.

The only way Id ever be mad that we didnt trade down is if I somehow got info that the Steelers had a good deal to move down and didnt take it, and then reached on a player.

Ill also add that the Steelers stay true to their board. Colbert has said that they have listened to trade offers in the past, but said if there is a player they like they will take that player. Fans may not like the player on their draft board, but its not our call.


Just because fans and talking heads say said player is a reach at a certain spot, doesn't mean anything. Every team makes up their own draft board and ranks players accordingly. I'll use Cleveland as an example, when they drafted T.J. Ward a couple years ago. All the talking heads ranted that he could've been had 2 or 3 rounds later. Ward is one of the top safeties and no one is questioning that pick now. And last year they drafted Mitchell Schwartz with the 37th pick. Browns fans were PO'd, but Schwartz started day 1 at RT and did very good.

Teams pay scouts a lot of money, so they know better than us and the talking heads. Sometimes the talking heads are right, but the majority of the time the scouts are right.


As to the OP, I didn't read all the replies. So I apologize if this has already been stated.

Why do the Steelers keep there 1st round pick? First their track record in the 1st round is much better than that of the 2nd. Most of the time the Steelers were picking at the end of the round, so any trades would've kicked them into the 2nd. JDLefebvre put a list of some of the first rounds picks since 1998 that were key contributors in keeping the Steelers successful the past 10+ years. But for every first round star, their's a terrible second round pick to follow. The question you should be asking is "Why do the Steelers keep there 2nd round pick?

All the great selections the Steelers have made in the first, are usually followed by a terrible 2nd round pick. Players like Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Limas Sweed. Those are the picks that are killing this team, not what they've done in the first round.


I disagree with the second round pick thing as you mentioned just a few but there were some good 2nd round players taken since 1998

2000 Marvel Smith who I believe was a very good pick

2001 Kendrell Bell if not for injuries he was the first L. Timmons. I'd consider him a good pick

2002 Antwan Randel El was a good pick

2005 Bryant McFadden was a decent 2nd round pick

2007 Woodley no explanation needed

2010-2012 Worilds, Gilbert and Adams the jury is still out.

So the years that produced nothing aren't as many as some believe. Also there are a few years the Steelers traded out of the 2nd round.

1998, 1999, 2003, 2004 and 2008. That's just 5 2nd round picks since 1998 that gave the Steelers nothing.

2000, 2001, 2002, 2005 and 2007 have all produce for the Steelers maybe not all of them were Pro Bowlers or All Pros but they did produce.

These last few drafts will go a long way IMO in determining how bad it can/could be.

Now I agree that the success rate for 2nd picks isn't as high as the first, but I believe the Steelers gamble a bit more with there second round picks. Looking at the drafts since 1998 it seems like almost every pick was a project.


Think he is talking about more recent picks.

I wouldnt limit it to 2nd round picks though.

I think some fans have unrealistic expectations of the type of success to realistically expect in a draft, but good teams have to be able to find some players after the first round....which has been our problem over the last 8 years or so.

The need to hit on players beyond the 1st round is even more important for a team that doesnt use free agency outside of signing backups and role players.


Fans have to also consider what kind of team the Steelers are when your consistently competitive there sometimes just isn't much room for new players. Now if the Steelers are a 8-8 team or worse for multiple season then I get the logic of hitting on more picks, but to piggy back on that. If thats the case then those later picks would get more chances as the opportunities would be there to become key contributors.

But since 2004 the Steelers haven't had much turnover, so the position are far few and in between.

Max Starks was a 3rd round pick for instance and I believe he gave the Steelers just what they expect and maybe moe.

Trai Essex same position but he gave the Steelers a viable backup wasn't starter material but for a 3rd round pick he contributed. Even though it was on a lesser level. Same goes for Chris Kemoeatu.

I just believe fans are expecting to much out of the Steelers drafts when there really wasn't or hasn't been much room. Especially with how the Steelers value there veteran players.

The Steelers believe in there starters even when the media/fans don't.


Your argument that since 2004 the Steelers haven't had much turnover, so the position are far few and in between it not a very good one. I'm not delusional and think that every second round pick is going to be a star. But let's assume that their wasn't so many flops in the second round as of late.

2003 Alonzo Jackson - If Jackson wasn't a complete bust, the Steelers don't have to use another 2nd round pick 4 years later on Woodley. Not saying Woodley hasn't been good, but they instead could've used that pick address other holes.

2004 Ricardo Colclough - If Colclough wasn't complete garbage, the Steelers wouldn't have had to use a 2nd round the very next season on McFadden.

2005 Bryant McFadden - McFadden wasn't a bust, but let's not kid are selves he wasn't anything special. He was just an average starter at best and was out of the league before he turned 30.

2008 Limas Sweed - If Sweed could catch, the Steeler possibly never draft Mike Wallace.

Now I'm not saying that I wish those "bust" would've worked out so we never would have drafted Woodley, Wallace, or even Keenan Lewis. But instead proving that if those players played up to expectations they would've had a "position" on the team.

From 2003-2009 the Steelers have had 5 second round picks. 3 of them never saw the end of their rookie contract (Jackson, Colclough, & Sweed) , 1 (McFadden) was allowed to walk after his rookie contract. Woodley is the only one to receive a second contract and he's one more offseason like last year away from being the answer at nose tackle.


You have to take the draft as sum of whole parts not just pieces. With how the Steelers run their team I expect minimal return from the every draft as a whole. I do agree that if some players pan out it could of eliminated the need for another. But thats the risk teams take by drafting these players.

I'm not excusing the Steelers lackluster drafting in the later rounds, because I do believe they need to improve in that area. Especially since they don't use FA to acquire players. but the Steelers have had some success through the draft to be a competitive team 14 out of the last 20 yrs. With only 3 out of 20 yrs finishing below .500 which is why some fans have so much faith in the FO and give them a pass.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Troofax wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
Troofax wrote:
Steelers101 kids.

Someday I'll be like 43.


FIFY
I used to do that........10 years ago,or at best when you and 43 jumped on the wagon...


Still obsessed with me, I see.

Your constant need to talk about me just proves how Im in your head all the time.

Keep jawing Trollfax....like I said, no one here takes your uneducated opinion seriously...except you of course.
Keep telling yourself that kid. You're a joke to me, the definition of a clueless delusional"fan"..I'm as confident as it gets. I realize I'm towing the line here. You know what they say about arguing with idiots, right? Still, you represent why I can't stand most Steelers fans. You're being made fun of here, nothing more. You should be thankful a legend even acknowledges you, even for the wrong reasons. Keep up the originality tiger, Its funny hearing my quotes from 5 years ago.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL whatever you say Barney Stinson
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