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Aaron Hernandez's Role With The Team
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're really talking about an individual being versatile, and assuming having versatile players makes the offenses versatile, which isn't true. I am saying an offense which 4-5 players who are all masters of a different craft is more versatile than offense with a few who guys who are jacks of all trades.

Hunter-Amendola-Lloyd-Gronkowski-Vereen

is a more versatile and more dangerous passing game than

Amendola-Lloyd-Gronkowski-Hernandez-Vereen.

Hernandez presence is really going to slow us down if he starts taking snaps at outside receiver away from guys like Lloyd, Sanders, or even Jones.
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ChazStandard


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I do partially agree with NBT here, Hernandez's versatility is only a big plus if he's actually above average at the things he does - just because he can line up in several different positions doesn't mean we wouldn't be better off witch specialists.

The obvious counter-argument to that is his the way he fits into the no-huddle and allows various different plays/formations to be run from that.

He's a good player no doubt, but he's never really dominated a game - and I don't think he's become an untouchable or vital member of the team.

Just playing devil's advocate.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
Here's the big difference. When the defense chooses who they're putting on the field, they don't know what Hernandez is doing or where he lines up. I just outlined most of the possibilities when Hernandez is out wide, but they have to worry about tons of other things when he lines up elsewhere.

When you put another outside or slot receiver on the field, the defense is going to put another CB on the field. Hernandez against a linebacker is a much better matchup than a receiver against a CB. Putting a CB or safety on Hernandez opens things for the other receivers.


And I think this is why there are times when Hernandez can look very good. But against above average defenses, his "match up advantage" is minimal. And what happens is we're stuck with a player on the field playing a certain position while someone who is better at the actual position sits. Like Welker, Hernandez is a guy I'd like to move our offense away from. Becoming too dependent on guys who are fairly easy to stop is a major problem.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
You're really talking about an individual being versatile, and assuming having versatile players makes the offenses versatile, which isn't true. I am saying an offense which 4-5 players who are all masters of a different craft is more versatile than offense with a few who guys who are jacks of all trades.

Hunter-Amendola-Lloyd-Gronkowski-Vereen

is a more versatile and more dangerous passing game than

Amendola-Lloyd-Gronkowski-Hernandez-Vereen.

Hernandez presence is really going to slow us down if he starts taking snaps at outside receiver away from guys like Lloyd, Sanders, or even Jones.
The former is getting matched with a nickel defense every time, and quite possibly even dime since Vereen isn't as much of a threat to power through a tackle from an undersized defender as Ridley. That means you're losing out on all of those matchups against linebackers that putting Hernandez on the field gets you. If you have three great receivers, then just line up like that and beat everybody with ability rather than scheme. The Pats don't have that though, so they can benefit a ton from scheming good matchups, something you're not doing at all.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would prefer to scheme for match ups with a receiving corp of minimal individual versatility but maximum individual ability than scheme match ups with a receiving corp of average individual ability to maximum individual versatility.

It's like playing chess and saying "I'm going to try and win this game using only my pawns" and strategize from there, when you could just strategize using more powerful pieces.

Quote:
The Pats don't have that though


So, back to the original point. We should get it. Amendola and Lloyd/Sanders are fine 2nd and 3rd guys. Hunter could be a very legit #1. If the need for AH to play prevents getting one of those 3 receivers...dont you see the problem? Our offense experiences a "net loss".
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Jaymun


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my eyes its just flat out incorrect to say that Hernandez's versatility isn't a huge asset.

It's more than simply something that's 'cool', it's something that gives our offense an amazing amount of freedom, and it starts before he lines up anywhere.

When the defensive coordinator sees what personnel we have on the field, and the package includes Gronkowski and Hernandez, we are already putting them in a tough spot in deciding what personnel to answer with, already giving them one opportunity to be wrong and give us an advantage on the play.

Next potential advantage comes when he lines up, if there's a linebacker on him Brady has the option (which we've seen him exercise effectively ad nauseum) to check into a play where Hernandez gets the ball. If they have a corner on him that takes a corner off of one of our WR's, if they have a safety on him they only have 1 safety deep.

Yes, there are disadvantages if he's blocking a LB instead of a traditional TE blocking them, or if he's running a route against a corner instead of the mythical 'outside WR that makes us a 19-0 team' being against the corner, but what he does is reduce our disadvantages as much as possible, make it harder for a defense to match up against us, and create openings/mismatches/advantages on any given play.

I think the heart of the problem is that you're undervaluing the tactical side of football and overvaluing the physical side. I think the notion that Hernandez is our best tactical piece on offense deserves some serious consideration, and I'd argue to the death that he's at least top-3 in the category, while still being one of the better playmakers currently on our offense. Having an outside threat instead of him provides us a physical advantage, but on plays where the outside WR (unless we're talking someone like prime moss) doesn't take any intricate gameplanning or tactics to defend, and when he's not able to use his physical skills to make big plays, is far less useful than hernandez, even when he's outmatched at something.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChazStandard wrote:
I have to say I do partially agree with NBT here, Hernandez's versatility is only a big plus if he's actually above average at the things he does - just because he can line up in several different positions doesn't mean we wouldn't be better off witch specialists.


Actually summed it up quite nicely! Wink
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaymun wrote:
I think the heart of the problem is that you're undervaluing the tactical side of football and overvaluing the physical side.


I think I undervalue the tactical side of football less than many here undervalue the physical side. Any time I hear folks say "we won with Troy Brown, David Patten, blah blah blah", I just shake my head as these guys like what is clearly an exception being the norm. We'd do ourselves a huge favor if we lost this personal mission to make things harder for ourselves than they have to be.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
And I think this is why there are times when Hernandez can look very good. But against above average defenses, his "match up advantage" is minimal. And what happens is we're stuck with a player on the field playing a certain position while someone who is better at the actual position sits. Like Welker, Hernandez is a guy I'd like to move our offense away from. Becoming too dependent on guys who are fairly easy to stop is a major problem.
Can you name certain games against good defenses where this has happened? For the most part, Hernandez is getting his stats even in the games where the Pats don't do well. The big exception is against Seattle last year, where he played on one leg. Other than that, I'm not seeing those games against above average defenses where Hernandez has been a liability.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
Can you name certain games against good defenses where this has happened? For the most part, Hernandez is getting his stats even in the games where the Pats don't do well. The big exception is against Seattle last year, where he played on one leg. Other than that, I'm not seeing those games against above average defenses where Hernandez has been a liability.


It's tough to really gauge it this past year because Gronkowski was hurt when Hernandez finally got healthy. The point of this thread was to address that some think Hernandez keeps us from drafting a top tier WR this year now that we have Amendola, Lloyd, and presumably Sanders, and I think in that case AH should be the odd man out as opposed to the other receiver. Moving forward, like WW, I'd like to AH having a lesser role. I would prefer he stick to tight end, and let actual receivers play receiver, actual running backs play running back, etc.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
It's tough to really gauge it this past year because Gronkowski was hurt when Hernandez finally got healthy. The point of this thread was to address that some think Hernandez keeps us from drafting a top tier WR this year not that we have Amendola, Lloyd, and presumably Sanders, and I think in that case AH should be the odd man out as opposed to the other receiver.
You're arguing in a circle here. You want another WR as opposed to Hernandez because you think his matchup ability is minimized against good defenses and having a WR to beat a defense straight up would be better, but you can't name a single time where Hernandez's matchup ability was lacking against a good defense. That blows a hole in your whole WR>Hernandez argument.
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HOVA333


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Re: Aaron Hernandez's Role With The Team Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Made this post elsewhere, but want more discussion.


Wait you talk about WRs on other internet boards? Shall everyone feel your wrath?
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please refer to Tzimisce's sig.
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And this gif should be used for every NBT's threads.


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Donut


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
You're wrong.

[/thread]


Wonderful insight as always.
Your claptrap isn't worth serious consideration.

Dont insult Claptrap. He was annoying robot but mad Borderlands 2 flow.

I'm drunk so I may not be able to properly articulate my opinion but quit w/ obsession of needing and athletic WR. Hernandez is a matchup nightmare. mcDaniels best strengths is his play design to create mismatches. Justin hunter and any WR in this class isnt able to do what Hernandez does in creating mismatches. The need of having a freak athlete WR is stupid. You are obsessed. And I'd take hernandez over every WR in this draft.
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