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Aaron Hernandez's Role With The Team
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Aaron Hernandez's Role With The Team Reply with quote

Made this post elsewhere, but want more discussion.

Quote:
if there is any player on our offense who is overpaid, it is Aaron Hernandez. What makes for basically being a hybrid te/wr is a joke. He's a worse TE than Gronk, and as a pure wide receiver...I certainly wouldn't rank ahead of even Lloyd in terms of ability.

Only because you've brought up the resource allocation argument as it relates to price vs talent & the offensive role that comes with it. If we are judging EVERYONE...you mention the "2 out of the 3 for lloyd, sanders, and 1st round pick". I will say - probably to criticism - that the offense is being rolling with all 3 of Lloyd, Sanders, and a 1st rounder (i.e. Justin Hunter) and putting Hernandez on the bench.

1. Hunter-Amendola-Gronkowski-Lloyd-Sanders vs
2. Amendola-Gronkowski-Lloyd-Sanders-Hernandez

I personally see 1 as much better than 2. If I were BB, the only thing keeping from trading hernandez is the fact that Gronk is injury prone and seems to have the brain activity of a 3rd grader. But, if Hernandez's spot as the "hybrid" guy on the pecking order is preventing a guy like Hunter from coming here, or taking targets away from Amendola/Sanders/Lloyd...thats a problem.

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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're wrong.

[/thread]
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
You're wrong.

[/thread]


Wonderful insight as always. Only thing wrong is the idea that Hernandez is worth playing over more explosive players.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
You're wrong.

[/thread]


Wonderful insight as always.
Your claptrap isn't worth serious consideration.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If one peers at how Hernandez's salary erupts in 2 years,....wouldn't surprise me if the coming season is his final one with the team. If he isn't going to be our top TE...we cannot have him taking snaps away from more talented perimeter receivers.

Tzimisce wrote:
Your claptrap isn't worth serious consideration.


Maybe, but it isn't like you would have anything original to add the conversation, anyway. Wink
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patsfan06


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That whole better to remain silent and let people think your are stupid than open mouth and remove all doubt saying seems to apply here.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan06 wrote:
That whole better to remain silent and let people think your are stupid than open mouth and remove all doubt saying seems to apply here.


I prefer you miss every shot you never take.

And that is a quote only truly believed by those as foolish as the people the saying mocks, for if the intelligent believed that quote, their wise opinions would never be known either. Unless of course, they somehow know beforehand that their opinions will be met with universal acceptance - accept at that point, if it were that obvious - they wouldn't be smart, they would be quite average. That is probably over your head - but long story short, it is better to form your own original opinions and speak your mind about them than it is never state an opinion at all.

Aye that quote actually has me laughing. To think about how different the Patriots team would be if BB hadn't totally ignored that saying so many times. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
we cannot have him taking snaps away from more talented perimeter receivers.


I'll bite. Who on the roster can even remotely be considered a talented perimeter receiver?

Cause your hypothetical draft picks and Randy Moss. Aren't on this team is 99.9% guaranteed won't be.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's give the guy a chance to play more than one game at 100% health before we start attacking him for being overpaid. I know he's considering to be injury prone by many, but that play that he got hurt on was more fluke than anything, and anyone would have had the same thing from having Edelman roll up on their ankle like that. It also doesn't help that it's an injury that lingers through the whole season and that he aggravated it at least once. Before his injury, there were reports that the Pats were ready to use him as close to a #1 WR as they have in the offense, but that never happened because he never had that same level of ability again.

And considering what Jared Cook got paid, I think the Pats did a good job of getting him locked up early. And they definitely did the right thing by getting Gronk done early, or he'd probably be worth $10M a year after what Cook got.


NextBigThing wrote:
sciz - the cook comparisons problem is tennessee only pays top dollar for 1 TE.

Hernandez is more a WR here- a pedestrian 1. I'd rather get creative with a Justin Hunter type than AH.

What does Justin Hunter do other than lining up at WR and running a normal WR route tree?

Hernandez lines up at:
Outside receiver
Slot
In-line tight end
Fullback
Shotgun running back

Hernandez does:
Deep routes against linebackers and safeties
Short and deep in-cutting routes against anybody (including CBs)
Run blocking on defensive ends and linebackers
End-arounds/reverses
Hand-offs/tosses from the RB spot
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan06 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
we cannot have him taking snaps away from more talented perimeter receivers.


I'll bite. Who on the roster can even remotely be considered a talented perimeter receiver?


Maybe that is just the point, though. AH's presence keeps the from adding what needs to be added.

It is hard to directly address your question given our current receiver situation. If I were to apply it to 2012 - any time they put Hernandez out wide (or even in the slot) ahead of Edleman, it was a mistake.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole thread...

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Nihc


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
If one peers at how Hernandez's salary erupts in 2 years


What?
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
Before his injury, there were reports that the Pats were ready to use him as close to a #1 WR as they have in the offense, but that never happened because he never had that same level of ability again.


IDC that he is injury prone - even when healthy, he totally disappears in big games because we use him like he is a wide receiver, and his skills for that position are extremely average. Using him as our #1 would be pathetically sad. He is explosive for a tight end, but for a receiver he is below average at best.

Quote:
And considering what Jared Cook got paid, I think the Pats did a good job of getting him locked up early. And they definitely did the right thing by getting Gronk done early, or he'd probably be worth $10M a year after what Cook got.


But we have two of them. We only use one of them at TE. If we're going to use AH at receiver, it is a waste of space because we can do better at receiver.

Quote:
What does Justin Hunter do other than lining up at WR and running a normal WR route tree?

Hernandez lines up at:
Outside receiver
Slot
In-line tight end
Fullback
Shotgun running back

Hernandez does:
Deep routes against linebackers and safeties
Short and deep in-cutting routes against anybody (including CBs)
Run blocking on defensive ends and linebackers
End-arounds/reverses
Hand-offs/tosses from the RB spot


You missed the point. Hernandez doesn't really get open with creativity. We use these gimmick plays with him out of the backfield to get him open. Look at all those positions you named. He is versatile, cool. Doesn't change the fact that we would be better off having

-an actual outside receiver at outside receiver
-an actual slow receiver at slot receiver
-he will never be better than Gronk at in line te
-an actual fulback at fullback
-an actual tailback at tailback

Understand? Every time Hernandez lines up outside instead of an actual outside receiver, we are WORSE OFF. Hernandez lining up outside instead of Lloyd makes us worse. Hernandez in the backfield instead of Vereen makes us worse. Hernandez at TE instead of Gronk makes worse. Hernandez in the slot instead of Welker/Amendola makes us worse. Jack of all trades - master of none. I'd rather have a roster full of masters of their craft, thank you very much. They won't disappear in big games against good defenses. Hunter might be less versatile, but he is better at what he actually does.

And Hunter can do the bolded just as well if not better than AH.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
If he isn't going to be our top TE...we cannot have him taking snaps away from more talented perimeter receivers.

NextBigThing wrote:
Understand that this absurd need to have both Gronk and Hernandez on the field (and Gronk needs to be the TE, so Hernandez goes out wide)


There are so many ways to have both Gronk and Hernandez on the field without putting Hernandez out wide. He can play right next to Gronk. He can play at the other side of the line. He can go in other of the slots. I just named four 2WR/2TE formations where neither Gronk nor Hernandez is outside.


As for putting Hernandez out wide, it's all to see how the defense reacts.
Hernandez is wide left, Gronk at the end of the offensive line on the right, Amendola slot right, and Lloyd/Sanders/Hunter/whoever wide right.

Scenario 1: The defense is in base.

Scenario 1A. The defense puts a CB on Hernandez
Outcome: Amendola is being covered by either an LB or a safety.
Should be plenty easy to get the ball to Amendola for a good gain. Also, the wide right receiver has the advantage of there only being one deep safety. Hernandez can do a 10 yard in or something, which he beats CBs with all the time.

Scenario 1B: The defense puts a safety on Hernandez
Outcome: There's only one deep safety.
There are two good mismatches here, Gronk on an LB and the outside receiver with the CB. There's only one deep safety because the other one is on Hernandez. If Gronk and the outside receiver get past their guy, the safety can only help one of them. That's all without worrying about Hernandez, who has an athleticism advantage on plenty of safeties.

Scenario 1C: The defense puts a linebacker on Hernandez.
Outcome: There's one fewer linebacker in the box.
This is the money outcome. Either the Pats can run the ball into a box of only six guys or six guys plus a safety, or they can attack that linebacker in coverage on Hernandez, much like Vereen on Ruud against the Texans.

Scenario 2: The defense is in nickel.
Outcome: If Hernandez comes back to the offensive line, the Pats have two TEs and an offensive line against a front seven and a CB. Should be able to run against it, although they couldn't against the Ravens because Gronk was hurt and neither Fells nor Ho-oh could block that day.

Scenario 3: The defense is in dime.
Outcome: This is what the silly Texans do, because they think they're too good to use a nickel package. Run against that all day and set up playaction. A big reason the Texans will never beat the Pats if the Pats have both TEs, and why the Pats put up 40 on the Texans twice, both times without one of their TEs.


Note: This is simplifying it quite a bit, and is making a few assumptions. This mostly applies to man coverage, but also is somewhat relevant for zone, and you can't play zone all day against Brady anyway.

But basically, there's a lot that can go right by putting Hernandez out wide. The end.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Look at all those positions you named. He is versatile, cool. Doesn't change the fact that we would be better off having

-an actual outside receiver at outside receiver
-an actual slow receiver at slot receiver
-he will never be better than Gronk at in line te
-an actual fulback at fullback
-an actual tailback at tailback

Understand? Every time Hernandez lines up outside instead of an actual outside receiver, we are WORSE OFF. Hernandez lining up outside instead of Lloyd makes us worse. Hernandez in the backfield instead of Vereen makes us worse. Hernandez at TE instead of Gronk makes worse. Hernandez in the slot instead of Welker/Amendola makes us worse. Jack of all trades - master of none. I'd rather have a roster full of masters of their craft, thank you very much. They won't disappear in big games against good defenses. Hunter might be less versatile, but he is better at what he actually does.

And Hunter can do the bolded just as well if not better than AH.

Here's the big difference. When the defense chooses who they're putting on the field, they don't know what Hernandez is doing or where he lines up. I just outlined most of the possibilities when Hernandez is out wide, but they have to worry about tons of other things when he lines up elsewhere.

When you put another outside or slot receiver on the field, the defense is going to put another CB on the field. Hernandez against a linebacker is a much better matchup than a receiver against a CB. Putting a CB or safety on Hernandez opens things for the other receivers.

You're looking at Hernandez against other players in a vacuum. What you're ignoring is how Hernandez dictates coverages and forces defenses to show their hand. Prototypical, one-position players don't do that.
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