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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22236
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
coolj247 wrote:
first 3 picks have to be dt, de, and adressing the right side of the line. i dont care what order


Meh, I can't really agree but I like your logic. I just want the best player at whatever position. We don't really have anyone now who is irreplaceable. Yeah those positions need the most work but I still the best player is the way to go.


Even CB?


Unfortunately. It'd be a wasted pick but if that's the philosophy, stick to it.


It's this simple. If you have great pass rushers, you don't great CBs as you've said many times.

But the inverse also applies. If your pass rush is a non-factor, then you need great cover CBs.

The Raiders seems set w/ the CB additions, so pass rush is the only place I see them going with the pick.


But honestly, how long can a CB stick w/ a WR? If your pass rush can't get to the QB in say, 5-6 seconds, it nullifies how good your CB is b/c it's almost impossible to stick w/ them. Plus w/ this turning into such a pass heavy league, there's numerous other options to throw to.

Both are necessary and I agree w/ your logic it's just that the inverse isn't as effective as having a good pass rush. Not at all.

I just wish we were in this predicament when there was a better draft class coming out. At least the speculation will start to be gone in 1 week and 3 days......


I concur with JTagg. What he is politely trying to say (i think) is that while there IS such a thing a coverage sacks they are exponentially harder to get. Hence, it does not justify drafting a CB high. Imo if the prospects aren't there then you should do what it is predicted McKenzie will do which is absent edge rushers take the best interior rusher if he is BPA. However, I differ with the FO on who the best interior DL rusher is Floyd v Richardson. Come back with any number of the edge rushers later in the draft.


Technically, we don't know who the FO likes until the draft.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5625
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
coolj247 wrote:
first 3 picks have to be dt, de, and adressing the right side of the line. i dont care what order


Meh, I can't really agree but I like your logic. I just want the best player at whatever position. We don't really have anyone now who is irreplaceable. Yeah those positions need the most work but I still the best player is the way to go.


Even CB?


Unfortunately. It'd be a wasted pick but if that's the philosophy, stick to it.


It's this simple. If you have great pass rushers, you don't great CBs as you've said many times.

But the inverse also applies. If your pass rush is a non-factor, then you need great cover CBs.

The Raiders seems set w/ the CB additions, so pass rush is the only place I see them going with the pick.


But honestly, how long can a CB stick w/ a WR? If your pass rush can't get to the QB in say, 5-6 seconds, it nullifies how good your CB is b/c it's almost impossible to stick w/ them. Plus w/ this turning into such a pass heavy league, there's numerous other options to throw to.

Both are necessary and I agree w/ your logic it's just that the inverse isn't as effective as having a good pass rush. Not at all.

I just wish we were in this predicament when there was a better draft class coming out. At least the speculation will start to be gone in 1 week and 3 days......


Seattle is a good example. Not a great pass rushing team last year, but their secondary was on lock down. They got a lot of coverage sacks. Solid CBs can stick long enough for your below average pass rush to get pressure.

Raiders on the other hand had no pass rush and poor CBs. So they just looked ridiculous out there trying to cover.

I will agree ten fold I'd rather have pass rushers and a great pass rushing team than a bunch of cover CBs.


Rather Seattle is a GREAT example. Let's look at how their roster is built. The Seahawks have a culture and know who they are. Starting CBs:

UDFA/CFL
Brandon Browner 6'3" 221lbs 40:4.63
5th Richard Sherman 6'3" 195lbs 40:4.54

They draft BIG CBs late because they value length more than speed. Raider fan says we ought to be like SEA so we should draft Milliner 1st. How is that the same?

Raider fan says: "We should be like the 49ers" so we should draft Warmack at #3 when they took Iupati at #17. BIG difference.

Raider fan says: "We should draft the QBotF like the 49ers" but they fixed the OL FIRST!

The difference these other teams know who they are and let their draft come to them. This is what I am hoping for from the Raiders.
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Mancrush 2014: DE Clowney, WR Watkins, OT Robinson, LB Shazier, FS Brooks, TE ASJ, OG Jackson, WR Janis, OT Lucas, OT Tiny
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22236
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
coolj247 wrote:
first 3 picks have to be dt, de, and adressing the right side of the line. i dont care what order


Meh, I can't really agree but I like your logic. I just want the best player at whatever position. We don't really have anyone now who is irreplaceable. Yeah those positions need the most work but I still the best player is the way to go.


Even CB?


Unfortunately. It'd be a wasted pick but if that's the philosophy, stick to it.


It's this simple. If you have great pass rushers, you don't great CBs as you've said many times.

But the inverse also applies. If your pass rush is a non-factor, then you need great cover CBs.

The Raiders seems set w/ the CB additions, so pass rush is the only place I see them going with the pick.


But honestly, how long can a CB stick w/ a WR? If your pass rush can't get to the QB in say, 5-6 seconds, it nullifies how good your CB is b/c it's almost impossible to stick w/ them. Plus w/ this turning into such a pass heavy league, there's numerous other options to throw to.

Both are necessary and I agree w/ your logic it's just that the inverse isn't as effective as having a good pass rush. Not at all.

I just wish we were in this predicament when there was a better draft class coming out. At least the speculation will start to be gone in 1 week and 3 days......


Seattle is a good example. Not a great pass rushing team last year, but their secondary was on lock down. They got a lot of coverage sacks. Solid CBs can stick long enough for your below average pass rush to get pressure.

Raiders on the other hand had no pass rush and poor CBs. So they just looked ridiculous out there trying to cover.

I will agree ten fold I'd rather have pass rushers and a great pass rushing team than a bunch of cover CBs.


Rather Seattle is a GREAT example. Let's look at how their roster is built. The Seahawks have a culture and know who they are. Starting CBs:

UDFA/CFL
Brandon Browner 6'3" 221lbs 40:4.63
5th Richard Sherman 6'3" 195lbs 40:4.54

They draft BIG CBs late because they value length more than speed. Raider fan says we ought to be like SEA so we should draft Milliner 1st. How is that the same?

Raider fan says: "We should be like the 49ers" so we should draft Warmack at #3 when they took Iupati at #17. BIG difference.

Raider fan says: "We should draft the QBotF like the 49ers" but they fixed the OL FIRST!

The difference these other teams know who they are and let their draft come to them. This is what I am hoping for from the Raiders.


Good points.

I agree. Know your identity and draft accordingly. My guess is Reggie isn't a guy who values CBs high. He will build both lines first.
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raiderfan19


Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 3017
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post draft and the thing that jumps out at me is the s errors depth we have in the back 7! Looks like our defense would be...

RE- Hunter/Carter
NT- Sims
3- Walker
LE- Houston

WILL- Burris/Maiva/Moore
MLB- Roach
SAM- Burnett/Moore

FS- Young
SS-Branch

DB- Hayden and Porter start. In the nickel Porter kicks inside and Jenkins covers on the outside. Dime Adams. 5th Chekwa/Ross/Jones.

I have a feeling in terms of title Tiawan Jones will be a corner but just play on 4 teams special teams. Not to confident in his coverage ability even if he did play in high school and college.
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Dessie


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 4494
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raiderfan19 wrote:
Post draft and the thing that jumps out at me is the s errors depth we have in the back 7! Looks like our defense would be...

RE- Hunter/Carter
NT- Sims
3- Walker
LE- Houston

WILL- Burris/Maiva/Moore
MLB- Roach
SAM- Burnett/Moore

FS- Young
SS-Branch

DB- Hayden and Porter start. In the nickel Porter kicks inside and Jenkins covers on the outside. Dime Adams. 5th Chekwa/Ross/Jones.

I have a feeling in terms of title Tiawan Jones will be a corner but just play on 4 teams special teams. Not to confident in his coverage ability even if he did play in high school and college.


Hanson was good in the slot last year, Ross and Reggie Smith could feature at FS. No guarantee Young makes the team tbh. Chekwa is on the cusp I think.
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bitty wrote:
I don't understand why everybody thinks Green Bay is the pinnacle of NFL franchises?
In my opinion they are a joke. In the last ten years there drafts sucked.
#clueless
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5754
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the signings of Porter, Jenkins, drafting of Hayden, moving of Jones - all signs point to Chekwa being useless. Unless he can convert to safety he has no chance of making this team, literally next to none. And I'd take Ross at S ten times out of ten over Chekwa. Say goodbye..
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raiderfan19


Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 3017
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dessie wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Post draft and the thing that jumps out at me is the s errors depth we have in the back 7! Looks like our defense would be...

RE- Hunter/Carter
NT- Sims
3- Walker
LE- Houston

WILL- Burris/Maiva/Moore
MLB- Roach
SAM- Burnett/Moore

FS- Young
SS-Branch

DB- Hayden and Porter start. In the nickel Porter kicks inside and Jenkins covers on the outside. Dime Adams. 5th Chekwa/Ross/Jones.

I have a feeling in terms of title Tiawan Jones will be a corner but just play on 4 teams special teams. Not to confident in his coverage ability even if he did play in high school and college.


Hanson was good in the slot last year, Ross and Reggie Smith could feature at FS. No guarantee Young makes the team tbh. Chekwa is on the cusp I think.

Is Hanson under contract? Know he had a 1 year deal. Did he resign?
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Dessie


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 4494
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raiderfan19 wrote:
Dessie wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Post draft and the thing that jumps out at me is the s errors depth we have in the back 7! Looks like our defense would be...

RE- Hunter/Carter
NT- Sims
3- Walker
LE- Houston

WILL- Burris/Maiva/Moore
MLB- Roach
SAM- Burnett/Moore

FS- Young
SS-Branch

DB- Hayden and Porter start. In the nickel Porter kicks inside and Jenkins covers on the outside. Dime Adams. 5th Chekwa/Ross/Jones.

I have a feeling in terms of title Tiawan Jones will be a corner but just play on 4 teams special teams. Not to confident in his coverage ability even if he did play in high school and college.


Hanson was good in the slot last year, Ross and Reggie Smith could feature at FS. No guarantee Young makes the team tbh. Chekwa is on the cusp I think.

Is Hanson under contract? Know he had a 1 year deal. Did he resign?


Yes. Wouldn't be surprised if Porter Hanson or Jenkins don't make the final 53. Could have been insurance if we didn't pick up Hayden. Adams did well in spot duty and Ross also.
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bitty wrote:
I don't understand why everybody thinks Green Bay is the pinnacle of NFL franchises?
In my opinion they are a joke. In the last ten years there drafts sucked.
#clueless
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raidr4life


Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 3905
Location: Fresno, California
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dessie wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Dessie wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Post draft and the thing that jumps out at me is the s errors depth we have in the back 7! Looks like our defense would be...

RE- Hunter/Carter
NT- Sims
3- Walker
LE- Houston

WILL- Burris/Maiva/Moore
MLB- Roach
SAM- Burnett/Moore

FS- Young
SS-Branch

DB- Hayden and Porter start. In the nickel Porter kicks inside and Jenkins covers on the outside. Dime Adams. 5th Chekwa/Ross/Jones.

I have a feeling in terms of title Tiawan Jones will be a corner but just play on 4 teams special teams. Not to confident in his coverage ability even if he did play in high school and college.


Hanson was good in the slot last year, Ross and Reggie Smith could feature at FS. No guarantee Young makes the team tbh. Chekwa is on the cusp I think.

Is Hanson under contract? Know he had a 1 year deal. Did he resign?


Yes. Wouldn't be surprised if Porter Hanson or Jenkins don't make the final 53. Could have been insurance if we didn't pick up Hayden. Adams did well in spot duty and Ross also.
You cant be serious.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 32510
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raidr4life wrote:
Dessie wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Dessie wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Post draft and the thing that jumps out at me is the s errors depth we have in the back 7! Looks like our defense would be...

RE- Hunter/Carter
NT- Sims
3- Walker
LE- Houston

WILL- Burris/Maiva/Moore
MLB- Roach
SAM- Burnett/Moore

FS- Young
SS-Branch

DB- Hayden and Porter start. In the nickel Porter kicks inside and Jenkins covers on the outside. Dime Adams. 5th Chekwa/Ross/Jones.

I have a feeling in terms of title Tiawan Jones will be a corner but just play on 4 teams special teams. Not to confident in his coverage ability even if he did play in high school and college.


Hanson was good in the slot last year, Ross and Reggie Smith could feature at FS. No guarantee Young makes the team tbh. Chekwa is on the cusp I think.

Is Hanson under contract? Know he had a 1 year deal. Did he resign?


Yes. Wouldn't be surprised if Porter Hanson or Jenkins don't make the final 53. Could have been insurance if we didn't pick up Hayden. Adams did well in spot duty and Ross also.
You cant be serious.


Why not? If the young guys step up, why waste extra money and a roster spot on an older player when you can get similar or better production from a younger one?
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Dessie


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 4494
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
raidr4life wrote:
Dessie wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Dessie wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Post draft and the thing that jumps out at me is the s errors depth we have in the back 7! Looks like our defense would be...

RE- Hunter/Carter
NT- Sims
3- Walker
LE- Houston

WILL- Burris/Maiva/Moore
MLB- Roach
SAM- Burnett/Moore

FS- Young
SS-Branch

DB- Hayden and Porter start. In the nickel Porter kicks inside and Jenkins covers on the outside. Dime Adams. 5th Chekwa/Ross/Jones.

I have a feeling in terms of title Tiawan Jones will be a corner but just play on 4 teams special teams. Not to confident in his coverage ability even if he did play in high school and college.


Hanson was good in the slot last year, Ross and Reggie Smith could feature at FS. No guarantee Young makes the team tbh. Chekwa is on the cusp I think.

Is Hanson under contract? Know he had a 1 year deal. Did he resign?


Yes. Wouldn't be surprised if Porter Hanson or Jenkins don't make the final 53. Could have been insurance if we didn't pick up Hayden. Adams did well in spot duty and Ross also.
You cant be serious.


Why not? If the young guys step up, why waste extra money and a roster spot on an older player when you can get similar or better production from a younger one?


Exactly none of Jenkins, Porter or Hanson would be expensive to cut. You can add Young to that list as well.
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bitty wrote:
I don't understand why everybody thinks Green Bay is the pinnacle of NFL franchises?
In my opinion they are a joke. In the last ten years there drafts sucked.
#clueless
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14114
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's our current list of CBs:

Mike Jenkins
Tracy Porter
DJ Hayden
Joselio Hanson
Philip Adams
Brandian Ross (FS?)
Chimdi Chekwa
Coye Francies
Adrian Bushell
Mitchell White (Tryout)

Can't see Porter and Jenkins not making the 53. Hanson maybe.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11758
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
That's our current list of CBs:

Mike Jenkins
Tracy Porter
DJ Hayden
Joselio Hanson
Philip Adams
Brandian Ross (FS?)
Chimdi Chekwa
Coye Francies
Adrian Bushell
Mitchell White (Tryout)

Can't see Porter and Jenkins not making the 53. Hanson maybe.


Top 5 will (should) make it. Won't matter though b/c we still have no pass rushers except Andre Carter....
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 32510
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
That's our current list of CBs:

Mike Jenkins
Tracy Porter
DJ Hayden
Joselio Hanson
Philip Adams
Brandian Ross (FS?)
Chimdi Chekwa
Coye Francies
Adrian Bushell
Mitchell White (Tryout)

Can't see Porter and Jenkins not making the 53. Hanson maybe.


Top 5 will (should) make it. Won't matter though b/c we still have no pass rushers except Andre Carter....


David Bass Cool

lol
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BigBillsFan13 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Somewhere, RR strokes his mustache with pride
Among other things...
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11758
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
That's our current list of CBs:

Mike Jenkins
Tracy Porter
DJ Hayden
Joselio Hanson
Philip Adams
Brandian Ross (FS?)
Chimdi Chekwa
Coye Francies
Adrian Bushell
Mitchell White (Tryout)

Can't see Porter and Jenkins not making the 53. Hanson maybe.


Top 5 will (should) make it. Won't matter though b/c we still have no pass rushers except Andre Carter....


David Bass Cool

lol


Thank you for the inadvertent reminder. I'd be lying if I said I even knew this kid existed before Saturday. I'ma go look at some things.,

EDIT: Doesn't seem very quick off the edge. He's slow. I like his instincts though from the small amount I've seen. Too many times you come across DE's thinking sacks are the only way to go. I'll take a defended pass also. Worth the pick IMO. We'll see...
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