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The Anything (Non-Lions) Thread: Meh I Got Nothing
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LionsFan#1Pick


Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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Location: Central Michigan University
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
LionsFan#1Pick wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:


I disagree. You look at TB and that coach is easily 10 wins better with this group. He is a master of getting more with less.


Maddon won 90 games last year and missed the playoffs when their Pythagorean W-L called for 95 wins. As far as getting more with less, the guy had the Cy Young winner, an extremely deep rotation, Fernando Rodney pitching out of his mind, and two very solid two-way pieces in Longoria and Zobrist. He's not exactly working with the Bad News Bears. I love me some Joe Maddon, but the idea that he would add 10 wins to the Tigers is ludicrous.

Whoa there....

Longo was out most the year and his pitchers pitch above their head for a reason.......

He won 90 games last season .....in arguably the toughest division in baseball with a less talented team....

Leyland won........


That came off as more critical of Maddon than I wanted it too, but I stand by my assessment that there is absolutely no way the Tigers win 10 more games simply by replacing Leyland with Maddon. Maddon is probably the best manager in the game right now, but no manager is worth 10 wins. I also don't think he had anyone really pitching above their head except for Rodney. David Price is a number one pick, James Shields was a well established guy, Hellickson and Moore were highly regarded too.
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFan#1Pick wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
LionsFan#1Pick wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:


I disagree. You look at TB and that coach is easily 10 wins better with this group. He is a master of getting more with less.


Maddon won 90 games last year and missed the playoffs when their Pythagorean W-L called for 95 wins. As far as getting more with less, the guy had the Cy Young winner, an extremely deep rotation, Fernando Rodney pitching out of his mind, and two very solid two-way pieces in Longoria and Zobrist. He's not exactly working with the Bad News Bears. I love me some Joe Maddon, but the idea that he would add 10 wins to the Tigers is ludicrous.

Whoa there....

Longo was out most the year and his pitchers pitch above their head for a reason.......

He won 90 games last season .....in arguably the toughest division in baseball with a less talented team....

Leyland won........


That came off as more critical of Maddon than I wanted it too, but I stand by my assessment that there is absolutely no way the Tigers win 10 more games simply by replacing Leyland with Maddon. Maddon is probably the best manager in the game right now, but no manager is worth 10 wins.

Ya, I don't think that point is worth arguing, that is why I hav left it alone. I think it has to be taken on a case by case basis and could be up to 10 wins. Usually I believe about 5-8. I really believe under proper circumstances 20 is possible. Sometimes even the worst coach may make no difference. So all-in-all it all boils down to opinion that I don't believe is worth arguing. But I am comfortable saying this; Leyland DID cost us at least 8 games last year alone. Whether Maddon would have made the same mistakes or not remains to be seen.

All things considered I don't believe manager made a difference in the WS last year. So last year didn't matter. But it has several times since dum-dum was hired.
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LionsFan#1Pick


Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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Location: Central Michigan University
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, this is a philosophical argument. I don't agree with all of Jim Leyland's decisions by any means. However, calling him solely responsible for eight losses just isn't backed up by numerous studies that show very little correlation between manager decisions and a W-L record. I mean, how is that possible? I don't think it is unless you're blaming him for putting in a reliever who ends up blowing a save or a guy striking out with the bases loaded which is an issue with player performance more so than managing ability. I'll see if I can pull up some of those studies.

As I alluded to earlier, I think a baseball manager's role and impact is primarily managing the personalities of a bunch of rich athletes and only secondarily as a manager of the in-game situations. On that front, players love him and respect him. We aren't having any issues getting guys to put the effort in like we did with Pudge and Dmitri Young under Trammell. I won't shed a tear or anything when Leyland decides to hang them up, but he has been a net positive for our organization during his tenure here largely as a result of the talent being given to him and sometimes in spite of his "old school" mentality.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFan#1Pick wrote:
Yeah, this is a philosophical argument. I don't agree with all of Jim Leyland's decisions by any means. However, calling him solely responsible for eight losses just isn't backed up by numerous studies that show very little correlation between manager decisions and a W-L record. I mean, how is that possible? I don't think it is unless you're blaming him for putting in a reliever who ends up blowing a save or a guy striking out with the bases loaded which is an issue with player performance more so than managing ability. I'll see if I can pull up some of those studies.

As I alluded to earlier, I think a baseball manager's role and impact is primarily managing the personalities of a bunch of rich athletes and only secondarily as a manager of the in-game situations. On that front, players love him and respect him. We aren't having any issues getting guys to put the effort in like we did with Pudge and Dmitri Young under Trammell. I won't shed a tear or anything when Leyland decides to hang them up, but he has been a net positive for our organization during his tenure here largely as a result of the talent being given to him and sometimes in spite of his "old school" mentality.

Quite simply, if I am yelling at the radio what I would do, Leyland does something else, then his decision loses the game....then even the armchair knucklehead knew better than the moron coach and that is bad.
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LionsFan#1Pick


Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
LionsFan#1Pick wrote:
Yeah, this is a philosophical argument. I don't agree with all of Jim Leyland's decisions by any means. However, calling him solely responsible for eight losses just isn't backed up by numerous studies that show very little correlation between manager decisions and a W-L record. I mean, how is that possible? I don't think it is unless you're blaming him for putting in a reliever who ends up blowing a save or a guy striking out with the bases loaded which is an issue with player performance more so than managing ability. I'll see if I can pull up some of those studies.

As I alluded to earlier, I think a baseball manager's role and impact is primarily managing the personalities of a bunch of rich athletes and only secondarily as a manager of the in-game situations. On that front, players love him and respect him. We aren't having any issues getting guys to put the effort in like we did with Pudge and Dmitri Young under Trammell. I won't shed a tear or anything when Leyland decides to hang them up, but he has been a net positive for our organization during his tenure here largely as a result of the talent being given to him and sometimes in spite of his "old school" mentality.

Quite simply, if I am yelling at the radio what I would do, Leyland does something else, then his decision loses the game....then even the armchair knucklehead knew better than the moron coach and that is bad.


Fair enough, but who knows if what you would have done would have worked either? *shrugs* I understand your point and can relate to your frustration for sure, but I think 8 games is a bit hyperbolic. I think last year's issues have more to do with a porous infield defense, regressions from Peralta and Avila, lack of improvement from Boesch and Porcello, revolving door at #5 until Sanchez, revolving door at 2B until Infante, and 500+ ABs of Delmon Young instead of Victor Martinez more than anything Leyland did. That's just me though.
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ManeLine


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old man leyland just watching Coke let this game get away
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ManeLine wrote:
Old man leyland just watching Coke let this game get away



Say it ain't so. Pathetic management again. Was hoping he would disappear for a smoke and let another coach make decisions
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X_Factor_40


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not super upset about trying to figure out bullpen issues now. My frustration is more at dombrowski for putting such a terrible pen together. It's better they try to work through their issues now though. I guess that's just the optimist in me speaking through.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
LionsFan#1Pick wrote:
Yeah, this is a philosophical argument. I don't agree with all of Jim Leyland's decisions by any means. However, calling him solely responsible for eight losses just isn't backed up by numerous studies that show very little correlation between manager decisions and a W-L record. I mean, how is that possible? I don't think it is unless you're blaming him for putting in a reliever who ends up blowing a save or a guy striking out with the bases loaded which is an issue with player performance more so than managing ability. I'll see if I can pull up some of those studies.

As I alluded to earlier, I think a baseball manager's role and impact is primarily managing the personalities of a bunch of rich athletes and only secondarily as a manager of the in-game situations. On that front, players love him and respect him. We aren't having any issues getting guys to put the effort in like we did with Pudge and Dmitri Young under Trammell. I won't shed a tear or anything when Leyland decides to hang them up, but he has been a net positive for our organization during his tenure here largely as a result of the talent being given to him and sometimes in spite of his "old school" mentality.

Quite simply, if I am yelling at the radio what I would do, Leyland does something else, then his decision loses the game....then even the armchair knucklehead knew better than the moron coach and that is bad.


Oh, and you are a successful major league manager? I think his credentials and knowledge of the game run a little deeper than yours. If you were always right you would at least be able to coach a little league team to a bunch of wins they shouldn't have got with all your amazing I sight and understanding of the game and team. Basing a professional's (one who has won for a long time) decisions off of what you would do surely is not an accurate way to asses his success. Winning a World Series and taking us to 2 and more playoff wins says he is doing a fine job.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
Oh, and you are a successful major league manager? I think his credentials and knowledge of the game run a little deeper than yours. If you were always right you would at least be able to coach a little league team to a bunch of wins they shouldn't have got with all your amazing I sight and understanding of the game and team. Basing a professional's (one who has won for a long time) decisions off of what you would do surely is not an accurate way to asses his success. Winning a World Series and taking us to 2 and more playoff wins says he is doing a fine job.

a.) Who's to say I couldn't
b.) if I couldn't , it makes him look even sillier
c.) No armchair manager should have proven better decision making than the idiot coach, none
d.) Leyland didn't take them anywhere. They took him, this precedent was set in the last couple pages.
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Jrugges


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
Oh, and you are a successful major league manager? I think his credentials and knowledge of the game run a little deeper than yours. If you were always right you would at least be able to coach a little league team to a bunch of wins they shouldn't have got with all your amazing I sight and understanding of the game and team. Basing a professional's (one who has won for a long time) decisions off of what you would do surely is not an accurate way to asses his success. Winning a World Series and taking us to 2 and more playoff wins says he is doing a fine job.

a.) Who's to say I couldn't
b.) if I couldn't , it makes him look even sillier
c.) No armchair manager should have proven better decision making than the idiot coach, none
d.) Leyland didn't take them anywhere. They took him, this precedent was set in the last couple pages.


Lol this is easy.

A. ) I say you can't. More than just in game stuff, if you have the education know how, inside and outs, maybe but your just a regular guy like me who knows nothing how to work a club house or players, or locker-rooms etc. We can't manage man, we don't know the in's and outs.
B. ) No it doesn't only in your opinion which is fine but not everyone feels like this.
C. ) You don't, you said Brad Penny was our best pitcher outside of Verlander with Scherzer on this team once upon a time. We all do it, I mean I thought Aaron Berry would still be starting this year.
D. ) What about the first world series appearance? An again, just because you keep sticking to you're opinion, doesn't mean your right. It's just your point of view of the situation, which is fine, but your CLEARLY, clearly, clearly, the minority around most baseball circles. Again, you might not be wrong either about Leyland but it's ignorant to completely dismiss his success and say it's all the players. I'm sure one's would do better, and some would do worst. I'm going to at least acknowledge he's done a job well done so far.
E. ) Your arguing a point, where no one can prove you are wrong cause we can't go back an change managers in a year. You'll never be proven wrong and you know it. Which is why I think you keep banging your chest like Tarzan every time something bad happens with the team/Leyland, cause it makes you look smart at the time, with little to no chance to debunk, or refute what your saying.

Do I think other manangers are better sure. But I'm not ready to say Leyland is terrible or sucks. Mostly because he's been doing a solid job with managing our outfield and starting pitching. Hitting is picking up with Jackson as his career moves on, Avila developed ok. I mean Leyland is the cause of these directly or indirectly through the coaches he hires so... Idk, I'm not ready to fire him or anything but also at the sametime if he left, I think the Tigers could find a manager to come here and manage that's prolly better than Leyland based off the team alone. Some of your idea's I do agree with but your just so stone hard set on them I can't get behind all your idea's 100%. Like fire Leyland, for what exactly?

Tigers aren't the Pistons. If you want credible coaches/managers to look at you as a destination you can't have them only as the GM's scape goat to keep his job. I mean theres not too much to warrant the firing or replacement of Jim Leyland unless it's someone literally like Maddon.


Last edited by Jrugges on Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jrugges wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
Oh, and you are a successful major league manager? I think his credentials and knowledge of the game run a little deeper than yours. If you were always right you would at least be able to coach a little league team to a bunch of wins they shouldn't have got with all your amazing I sight and understanding of the game and team. Basing a professional's (one who has won for a long time) decisions off of what you would do surely is not an accurate way to asses his success. Winning a World Series and taking us to 2 and more playoff wins says he is doing a fine job.

a.) Who's to say I couldn't
b.) if I couldn't , it makes him look even sillier
c.) No armchair manager should have proven better decision making than the idiot coach, none
d.) Leyland didn't take them anywhere. They took him, this precedent was set in the last couple pages.


Lol this is easy.

A. ) I say you can't.
B. ) No it doesn't only in your opinion which is fine but not everyone feels like this.
C. ) You don't, you said Brad Penny was our best pitcher outside of Verlander with Scherzer on this team once upon a time.
D. ) What about the first world series appearance? An again, just because you keep sticking to you're opinion, doesn't mean your right. It's just your point of view of the situation, which is fine, but your CLEARLY, clearly, clearly, the minority around most baseball circles. Again, you might not be wrong either about Leyland but it's ignorant to completely dismiss his success and say it's all the players. I'm sure one's would do better, and some would do worst. I'm going to at least acknowledge he's done a job well done so far.
E. ) Your arguing a point, where no one can prove you are wrong cause we can't go back an change managers in a year. You'll never be proven wrong and you know it. Which is why I think you keep banging your chest like Tarzan every time something bad happens with the team/Leyland, cause it makes you look smart at the time, with little to no chance to debunk, or refute what your saying.


Pretty much spot on.

It's the same old story of individuals expressing opinion as fact.

It's really easy to sit at home and second guess a managers decision because fans make decisions on incomplete information. Managers are far more in tune with the players and know who isn't feeling well, experiencing sleeping difficulties, had a poor warmup, is having control or confidence issues, is experiencing soreness or stiffness.

It's also easy to believe an in game decision that wasn't made would have worked out better because fans have ZERO knowledge of why a specific decision was or wasn't made.

Heck apparently being a big league manager is so easy anyone can do it. Rolling Eyes
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like the Red Wings are going to lose one of the most important members of their management team.

It's expected Jim Nill will be named GM of the Dallas Stars Monday.

Nill did a fantastic job for the Wings.
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Jrugges


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
It looks like the Red Wings are going to lose one of the most important members of their management team.

It's expected Jim Nill will be named GM of the Dallas Stars Monday.

Nill did a fantastic job for the Wings.


This is a disaster honestly. He was suppose to be the "next in line". With his time here we've let the Bowmans go, Yzerman, among others. Holland also has gone into auto polite the last 5-7 years imo.

I thought this last offeason was huge for the Redwings. This up coming offseason might decide the future of the wings for atleast the next 5 years again. I'm expect Datsyuk to leave for Russia(why stay?) Babcock could be let go if the rumors are true about how the players/locker room don't like him.(Which I believe based off certain things/whispers.)

As a Wing fan, #InHollandWeTrust!
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X_Factor_40


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
It looks like the Red Wings are going to lose one of the most important members of their management team.

It's expected Jim Nill will be named GM of the Dallas Stars Monday.

Nill did a fantastic job for the Wings.


That's a huge loss for the Wings, but he certainly deserves it.

I wish him all the best.
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