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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22234
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Football outsiders and PFF have very little to no credibility to me. Posting them on here doesn't influence my opinion either way, just seems to suggest you don't use your eyes much.


+1

It's laughably bad how some fans treat PFF as an absolute.

Remember, it was them who made everyone believe Stanford Routt was the #3 CB in the NFL behind Asomugha and Revis a couple years back.

It's opinion based. There is no actual fact to what they present. To many variables they can't/don't account for.
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socallbraider


Joined: 09 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:
@91mayj...no, what it allows you to do,is refute facts with unsubstantiated opinion that you present as a false equivalency.

Football outsiders rating system is not weighted. It is a simple compilation of facts.
Now...match ups,injuries that can be "nitpicked' but the only way to evaluate success is through establishing metrics, your "eye" test allows you to argue for or against whatever YOU deem acurate as if you are some Football overlord, that is what lacks credibility but I dont imagine you will accept that when its so easy to demand you are right in the face of any evidence to the contrary.

@darkness, I didnt use Greg Knapps offense bro, i used Wiz' rookie season under Hue Jackson.The raiders were a league second best 4.92 yards per attempt to the left side with wiz next to veldheer .I didnt bother to check 2012s numbers we were in the bottom couple of teams rushing,(i dont need to double check ,we all know how bad it was).
Rushing begins with the center, not just calling assignments but making a good foundational push, Wiz does not do that.
he would be better as a Guard.


The bolded stat is really impressive considering Wiz 2.0 was playing for Penn State in 2010 when the Raiders rushed for 4.92 per attempt.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2010
Veldheer & Gallery (Ranked 4th best LT/LG combo)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2011
Veldheer & Wiz 2.0 (11th)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2012
Veldheer & Carlisle (10th)

What does this tell us?
Once again you don't need great OG play to be successful in the running game provided your getting good OT play. After losing Gallery the Raider fell from 4th to 10th. Not a huge drop.
The combo of Veldheer & Carlisle was more effective than with Wiz 2.0 discrediting the fact that Wiz is a better LG than OC.

Stats are merely tools that are dangerous if the operator uses them as a weapon. Are you actually attempting to educate or win an internet debate. Welcome to the site. . . . . I'm sure you'll find it as challenging as I have. I've become a better research writer and a better evaluator (although I STILL make mistakes).

Wiz thinks he's a C. I think we should leave it at that.


Thanks for the correction,obviously I misread the info...I again dont hold 2012 as any indication as to what our line can do because they were so missuited to the ZBS, Im concerned that his runblocking grade being so poor as a center may impact our ability to effectively run the ball.2011 began and finished with several games in the 150+ range..whatever youd like to attribute that to is fine by me as long as we see more of it.
Moving wis to center,carlisle to the LT side and adding a guard was like replacing the entire interior of the line.
It showed.

If I could have my druthers I would trade down in the 1st to allow myself extra picks and bring in a couple of O -linemen.Its hard to relieve Wis from any responsibility to our Rushing issues as lacking as we were getting a "push" in the middle.

also,you take on the idea you dont need quality interior linemen to run the ball would require a bit more substance then youve produced to sell me on.There have been many teams with quality tackles that couldnt run the ball worth a darn.
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macklemore


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some blame needs to rest on McFadden. that guy sucks in a ZBS. we saw it his rookie and sophomore season, then again last year. when he missed a few games our backups looked to have success running behind the same line McFadden would consistently run for 2 ypc behind. I'm not saying the offensive line doesn't deserve any blame, they were bad and never got a good push. but I guess that's to be expected when you go to a ZBS and try to get lighter on the line.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

socallbraider wrote:

Thanks for the correction,obviously I misread the info...I again dont hold 2012 as any indication as to what our line can do because they were so missuited to the ZBS, Im concerned that his runblocking grade being so poor as a center may impact our ability to effectively run the ball.2011 began and finished with several games in the 150+ range..whatever youd like to attribute that to is fine by me as long as we see more of it.
Moving wis to center,carlisle to the LT side and adding a guard was like replacing the entire interior of the line.
It showed.

If I could have my druthers I would trade down in the 1st to allow myself extra picks and bring in a couple of O -linemen.Its hard to relieve Wis from any responsibility to our Rushing issues as lacking as we were getting a "push" in the middle.

also,you take on the idea you dont need quality interior linemen to run the ball would require a bit more substance then youve produced to sell me on.There have been many teams with quality tackles that couldnt run the ball worth a darn.


On one hand you are holding Wiz accountable for playing poorly (which he did not btw he was average 17th out 36 qualifiers) in a ZBS yet giving him credit for performance in a PBS that the statistics that you are using suggest he did not earn.

Look at the rosters of the last 11 Super Bowl winners and you will find very few spent high draft picks at interior of the OL and got by with average play.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
91jmay wrote:
Football outsiders and PFF have very little to no credibility to me. Posting them on here doesn't influence my opinion either way, just seems to suggest you don't use your eyes much.


+1

It's laughably bad how some fans treat PFF as an absolute.

Remember, it was them who made everyone believe Stanford Routt was the #3 CB in the NFL behind Asomugha and Revis a couple years back.

It's opinion based. There is no actual fact to what they present. To many variables they can't/don't account for.


I'm not defending PFF or any other site. But I will defend statistical analysis. Stats are a tool not the entire picture as long as they are consistent the numbers have value. There are such things as statistical anomalies and also poor analysts (people looking at the stats wrong). They say they are lies, damn lies & statistics. Obviously someone wielding a hammer incorrect is dangerous.

My prob with the whole Routt debate was that the media took one dimension of his stats in a contract year, iirc "burn rate", and the general public began to use it to incorrectly to get behind Routt's bloated contract.

While I cannot vouch for how PFF does its grading, every game every lineman receives his grades in run blocking & pass blocking in the first position meeting film session of the week following the game. period. In my experiences I have never heard of or witnessed a lineman dispute his grades although I don't know how they grade.

Overwhelmingly, most of us are poor evaluators. however, I do find it surprising that even though professionals use statistics to assist them so they can evaluate infinitely more prospects, and with the massive amounts of information out there amateurs can become quite knowledgeable we would rather use "ye ole eye ball".
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socallbraider


Joined: 09 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
91jmay wrote:
Football outsiders and PFF have very little to no credibility to me. Posting them on here doesn't influence my opinion either way, just seems to suggest you don't use your eyes much.


+1

It's laughably bad how some fans treat PFF as an absolute.

Remember, it was them who made everyone believe Stanford Routt was the #3 CB in the NFL behind Asomugha and Revis a couple years back.

It's opinion based. There is no actual fact to what they present. To many variables they can't/don't account for.




If the had YOU believeing Routt was the 3rd best CB in the league then thats on you.For their part they generally dont offer ANY opinions.They offered a "burnrate" and then created a list based of it.
all the rest of the variables are for the reader to factor in before they bounce around the Internet making foolish claims about who is #1 or whatever. Dont blame numbers for the mistaken evaluation of the reader.

As far as Pff and Football outsiders,all they are doing is providing a metric ,a tool to evaluate performance.

How else do you propose it be done?
There is no other way.standards are established and then comparisons to standards are compiled.
Are they Infalible?I dont think anything is...but it is a far better point of reference then YOUR opinion,which does not allow for any debate.

Your disdain for there acuracy would be better understood if you had some alternative,,,otherwise all you are doing is trying to implying that your opinion is somehow more relevant then others based on your uncontrolled assessments being better then others...yeah...thats reasonable.
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socallbraider


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:

Thanks for the correction,obviously I misread the info...I again dont hold 2012 as any indication as to what our line can do because they were so missuited to the ZBS, Im concerned that his runblocking grade being so poor as a center may impact our ability to effectively run the ball.2011 began and finished with several games in the 150+ range..whatever youd like to attribute that to is fine by me as long as we see more of it.
Moving wis to center,carlisle to the LT side and adding a guard was like replacing the entire interior of the line.
It showed.

If I could have my druthers I would trade down in the 1st to allow myself extra picks and bring in a couple of O -linemen.Its hard to relieve Wis from any responsibility to our Rushing issues as lacking as we were getting a "push" in the middle.

also,you take on the idea you dont need quality interior linemen to run the ball would require a bit more substance then youve produced to sell me on.There have been many teams with quality tackles that couldnt run the ball worth a darn.


On one hand you are holding Wiz accountable for playing poorly (which he did not btw he was average 17th out 36 qualifiers) in a ZBS yet giving him credit for performance in a PBS that the statistics that you are using suggest he did not earn.

Look at the rosters of the last 11 Super Bowl winners and you will find very few spent high draft picks at interior of the OL and got by with average play.


I dont know what to attribute the lines success to.
I know that Mcfaddens struggles in reading blocks wasnt the only issue going on in the 2012 line.
AS Im sure you knw a lot is made of "linemates" gelling.In 2011 we averaged 156.8 yards a game rushing the first 10 games of the year with Dmac and Bush.

We let satele go, we moved RG to LG..we moved LG to C.all these things disrupte the lines continuity.But if you look at the teams that hsitoricaly have had success in a PBS their is a long history of Probowl level centers.

"blaming" wiz is lazy perhaps...what I should be saying is I would try to focus on what brought us so much success in 2011.WE currently have three of those 5 on the roster.Breisel can stay @ RG since hes obvioulsy not going any where,and If it were up to me I would move Wiz back to Guard and plug in the best pure center that was available in FA or the draft.
But,if thats not in the cards then we better be sure Berg is game ready.
too many "if" surronding a unit that two years ago only needed a younger LG goin g forward.


BTW...17 out of 36 is not really what im looking for.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

socallbraider wrote:

If the had YOU believeing Routt was the 3rd best CB in the league then thats on you.For their part they generally dont offer ANY opinions.They offered a "burnrate" and then created a list based of it.
all the rest of the variables are for the reader to factor in before they bounce around the Internet making foolish claims about who is #1 or whatever. Dont blame numbers for the mistaken evaluation of the reader.


Are you dense? I just said I don't buy anything PFF is selling.

socallbraider wrote:
As far as Pff and Football outsiders,all they are doing is providing a metric ,a tool to evaluate performance.

How else do you propose it be done?
There is no other way.standards are established and then comparisons to standards are compiled.
Are they Infalible?I dont think anything is...but it is a far better point of reference then YOUR opinion,which does not allow for any debate.

Your disdain for there acuracy would be better understood if you had some alternative,,,otherwise all you are doing is trying to implying that your opinion is somehow more relevant then others based on your uncontrolled assessments being better then others...yeah...thats reasonable.


And you can buy PFF all you want. I choose not to. Posting PFF stats as an argument to a players value doesn't hold weight.
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socallbraider


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But your unsupported opinion does...yeah that makes sense.

And what you wrote was tha PFF had people claiming routt was the Third best CB in the league.

what people were these?
maybe you should stick to speaking for yourself.
I never read anyone make that claim anywhere.I did read people point out he had the 3rd best "burn rate" that ONE year, so once again how anyone takes thats and turns it into third best CB in the NFL is an internal matter, as in get your head checked,or maybe in your case making wild assumptions about what other people are thinking.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

socallbraider wrote:
But your unsupported opinion does...yeah that makes sense.

And what you wrote was tha PFF had people claiming routt was the Third best CB in the league.

what people were these?
maybe you should stick to speaking for yourself.
I never read anyone make that claim anywhere.I did read people point out he had the 3rd best "burn rate" that ONE year, so once again how anyone takes thats and turns it into third best CB in the NFL is an internal matter, as in get your head checked,or maybe in your case making wild assumptions about what other people are thinking.


And your opinion is no better than mine. Except 99% of this forum will agree w/ my opinion on Reggie and the situation over your 'know it all' opinion.

As for Routt, fans used that to justify the contract he was given. You know, that elite money Davis paid him that help bury the Raiders in cap jail.

Anyway.... cary on. I have no time for internet know it alls. You're better than all of us, Reggie McKenzie and the rest of the organization. And using all your talents posting on an internet forum...... what a shame. The NFL could really use a know it all like yourself.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

socallbraider wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:

Thanks for the correction,obviously I misread the info...I again dont hold 2012 as any indication as to what our line can do because they were so missuited to the ZBS, Im concerned that his runblocking grade being so poor as a center may impact our ability to effectively run the ball.2011 began and finished with several games in the 150+ range..whatever youd like to attribute that to is fine by me as long as we see more of it.
Moving wis to center,carlisle to the LT side and adding a guard was like replacing the entire interior of the line.
It showed.

If I could have my druthers I would trade down in the 1st to allow myself extra picks and bring in a couple of O -linemen.Its hard to relieve Wis from any responsibility to our Rushing issues as lacking as we were getting a "push" in the middle.

also,you take on the idea you dont need quality interior linemen to run the ball would require a bit more substance then youve produced to sell me on.There have been many teams with quality tackles that couldnt run the ball worth a darn.


On one hand you are holding Wiz accountable for playing poorly (which he did not btw he was average 17th out 36 qualifiers) in a ZBS yet giving him credit for performance in a PBS that the statistics that you are using suggest he did not earn.

Look at the rosters of the last 11 Super Bowl winners and you will find very few spent high draft picks at interior of the OL and got by with average play.


I dont know what to attribute the lines success to.
I know that Mcfaddens struggles in reading blocks wasnt the only issue going on in the 2012 line.
AS Im sure you knw a lot is made of "linemates" gelling.In 2011 we averaged 156.8 yards a game rushing the first 10 games of the year with Dmac and Bush.

We let satele go, we moved RG to LG..we moved LG to C.all these things disrupte the lines continuity.But if you look at the teams that hsitoricaly have had success in a PBS their is a long history of Probowl level centers.

"blaming" wiz is lazy perhaps...what I should be saying is I would try to focus on what brought us so much success in 2011.WE currently have three of those 5 on the roster.Breisel can stay @ RG since hes obvioulsy not going any where,and If it were up to me I would move Wiz back to Guard and plug in the best pure center that was available in FA or the draft.
But,if thats not in the cards then we better be sure Berg is game ready.
too many "if" surronding a unit that two years ago only needed a younger LG goin g forward.


BTW...17 out of 36 is not really what im looking for.


And the 51st out of 78 in 2011 by Wiz at LG is? Short math suggests Wiz was statistically better playing C in an ill-suited system in his ROOKIE season (as it was his 1st full season at C) than he was playing LG in a system that plays to his strengths.

Wiz is far more stout than Satele. How about we let wiz get one full season at C in the system he is most suited for? Besides, Wiz is calling himself a center. I don't understand why we just can't let this go?

I've been holding on to this too long. Wiz is beloved in Raider Nation but the truth is Wiz is an average athlete whose frame/strength SEEMS to be maxed out as it was suggested it was by scouting experts previous to him being drafted well ahead of where it was predicted he should/would go. Wiz loves the Raiders. Let him grow at what even he considers his best position. I'm sorry, Raider Nation, to bring this touchy subject up but enough is enough.
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socallbraider


Joined: 09 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:

Thanks for the correction,obviously I misread the info...I again dont hold 2012 as any indication as to what our line can do because they were so missuited to the ZBS, Im concerned that his runblocking grade being so poor as a center may impact our ability to effectively run the ball.2011 began and finished with several games in the 150+ range..whatever youd like to attribute that to is fine by me as long as we see more of it.
Moving wis to center,carlisle to the LT side and adding a guard was like replacing the entire interior of the line.
It showed.

If I could have my druthers I would trade down in the 1st to allow myself extra picks and bring in a couple of O -linemen.Its hard to relieve Wis from any responsibility to our Rushing issues as lacking as we were getting a "push" in the middle.

also,you take on the idea you dont need quality interior linemen to run the ball would require a bit more substance then youve produced to sell me on.There have been many teams with quality tackles that couldnt run the ball worth a darn.


On one hand you are holding Wiz accountable for playing poorly (which he did not btw he was average 17th out 36 qualifiers) in a ZBS yet giving him credit for performance in a PBS that the statistics that you are using suggest he did not earn.

Look at the rosters of the last 11 Super Bowl winners and you will find very few spent high draft picks at interior of the OL and got by with average play.


I dont know what to attribute the lines success to.
I know that Mcfaddens struggles in reading blocks wasnt the only issue going on in the 2012 line.
AS Im sure you knw a lot is made of "linemates" gelling.In 2011 we averaged 156.8 yards a game rushing the first 10 games of the year with Dmac and Bush.

We let satele go, we moved RG to LG..we moved LG to C.all these things disrupte the lines continuity.But if you look at the teams that hsitoricaly have had success in a PBS their is a long history of Probowl level centers.

"blaming" wiz is lazy perhaps...what I should be saying is I would try to focus on what brought us so much success in 2011.WE currently have three of those 5 on the roster.Breisel can stay @ RG since hes obvioulsy not going any where,and If it were up to me I would move Wiz back to Guard and plug in the best pure center that was available in FA or the draft.
But,if thats not in the cards then we better be sure Berg is game ready.
too many "if" surronding a unit that two years ago only needed a younger LG goin g forward.


BTW...17 out of 36 is not really what im looking for.


And the 51st out of 78 in 2011 by Wiz at LG is? Short math suggests Wiz was statistically better playing C in an ill-suited system in his ROOKIE season (as it was his 1st full season at C) than he was playing LG in a system that plays to his strengths.

Wiz is far more stout than Satele. How about we let wiz get one full season at C in the system he is most suited for? Besides, Wiz is calling himself a center. I don't understand why we just can't let this go?

I've been holding on to this too long. Wiz is beloved in Raider Nation but the truth is Wiz is an average athlete whose frame/strength SEEMS to be maxed out as it was suggested it was by scouting experts previous to him being drafted well ahead of where it was predicted he should/would go. Wiz loves the Raiders. Let him grow at what even he considers his best position. I'm sorry, Raider Nation, to bring this touchy subject up but enough is enough.


Dont apologize for trying to shine a light on the truth.
as far as the nation goes, there are people who rant and rave about all things raiders with no perspective or honest appraisal, they are the ones that were calling Ro a beast three years ago because he stupidly body slammed a 5-9 150lb reciever costing us 15 yards...
WOOOOO hooooo!!
Great play!!!

I dont give a crap what dumbarse posters like that think or feel.

My interest in moving him to Guard is consistent with what youve written.
Weve had a long line of Probowl quality centers in our history going back to ole "00"..it has always been a staple of a Raiders team..even mr Bipolar whos name I will not mention was considered an elite center for a breif moment before he brought it crashing down on himself.

Im looking for the next "center piece" of the line and Wiz doesnt appear to be it IMO.He is serviceable and his "performance" at guard is a secondary consideration to his ability to be the "captain" and "anchor" of the o-line.
There are two TRUE centers in this draft that I would consider.
Barrett Jones and Kahlif Holmes.
drafting one of these guys would allow for quite a bit of evaluation in the OTAs.
If Berg and Wiz wind up being the best options @ LG and Center so be it...But if Jones/holmes shows a better instinct or push then you move Wis to LG...DESPITE WHAT HE "SAYS" and berg can try to unseat a wholly ineffective Mike Breisel.

This years success depends on our ability to open BIG holes for D mac to run down hill. If we see the kind of slop that we saw last year, we will be a 0-16 or 2-14.


When did Wiz play Center his rookie year?
he was slotted at left guard and with Veldheer and satele that line put 190 yards on Denver and 234 on the jets.
he was a Rookie of the week and made the all rookie team as a guard.
he was completely irrelevant as a center.


Last edited by socallbraider on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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socallbraider


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
socallbraider wrote:
But your unsupported opinion does...yeah that makes sense.

And what you wrote was tha PFF had people claiming routt was the Third best CB in the league.

what people were these?
maybe you should stick to speaking for yourself.
I never read anyone make that claim anywhere.I did read people point out he had the 3rd best "burn rate" that ONE year, so once again how anyone takes thats and turns it into third best CB in the NFL is an internal matter, as in get your head checked,or maybe in your case making wild assumptions about what other people are thinking.


And your opinion is no better than mine. Except 99% of this forum will agree w/ my opinion on Reggie and the situation over your 'know it all' opinion.

As for Routt, fans used that to justify the contract he was given. You know, that elite money Davis paid him that help bury the Raiders in cap jail.

Anyway.... cary on. I have no time for internet know it alls. You're better than all of us, Reggie McKenzie and the rest of the organization. And using all your talents posting on an internet forum...... what a shame. The NFL could really use a know it all like yourself.




No.
My opinion is supportted by statistical facts , that is what lends it credence.. whether those stats "define" the actual value of a player,coach,scheme, GM...will only be FULLY determinable when their career is finished and a complete body of work can be interpreted.
Even then a guy like Steve Leargent who had to overcome Zorn and Kreigs accuracy issues gets marginalized by his team mates weaknesses.

so once again, if you dont like PFF or football Focus, provide me a better refernce point to evaluate a player...If you want to stick to "opinions" then thats fine...but when you insist your "opinion" is the "right" one simply becasue its yours then we are back in Kiddie Korner and I dont have the patience for that.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

socallbraider wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:

Thanks for the correction,obviously I misread the info...I again dont hold 2012 as any indication as to what our line can do because they were so missuited to the ZBS, Im concerned that his runblocking grade being so poor as a center may impact our ability to effectively run the ball.2011 began and finished with several games in the 150+ range..whatever youd like to attribute that to is fine by me as long as we see more of it.
Moving wis to center,carlisle to the LT side and adding a guard was like replacing the entire interior of the line.
It showed.

If I could have my druthers I would trade down in the 1st to allow myself extra picks and bring in a couple of O -linemen.Its hard to relieve Wis from any responsibility to our Rushing issues as lacking as we were getting a "push" in the middle.

also,you take on the idea you dont need quality interior linemen to run the ball would require a bit more substance then youve produced to sell me on.There have been many teams with quality tackles that couldnt run the ball worth a darn.


On one hand you are holding Wiz accountable for playing poorly (which he did not btw he was average 17th out 36 qualifiers) in a ZBS yet giving him credit for performance in a PBS that the statistics that you are using suggest he did not earn.

Look at the rosters of the last 11 Super Bowl winners and you will find very few spent high draft picks at interior of the OL and got by with average play.


I dont know what to attribute the lines success to.
I know that Mcfaddens struggles in reading blocks wasnt the only issue going on in the 2012 line.
AS Im sure you knw a lot is made of "linemates" gelling.In 2011 we averaged 156.8 yards a game rushing the first 10 games of the year with Dmac and Bush.

We let satele go, we moved RG to LG..we moved LG to C.all these things disrupte the lines continuity.But if you look at the teams that hsitoricaly have had success in a PBS their is a long history of Probowl level centers.

"blaming" wiz is lazy perhaps...what I should be saying is I would try to focus on what brought us so much success in 2011.WE currently have three of those 5 on the roster.Breisel can stay @ RG since hes obvioulsy not going any where,and If it were up to me I would move Wiz back to Guard and plug in the best pure center that was available in FA or the draft.
But,if thats not in the cards then we better be sure Berg is game ready.
too many "if" surronding a unit that two years ago only needed a younger LG goin g forward.


BTW...17 out of 36 is not really what im looking for.


And the 51st out of 78 in 2011 by Wiz at LG is? Short math suggests Wiz was statistically better playing C in an ill-suited system in his ROOKIE season (as it was his 1st full season at C) than he was playing LG in a system that plays to his strengths.

Wiz is far more stout than Satele. How about we let wiz get one full season at C in the system he is most suited for? Besides, Wiz is calling himself a center. I don't understand why we just can't let this go?

I've been holding on to this too long. Wiz is beloved in Raider Nation but the truth is Wiz is an average athlete whose frame/strength SEEMS to be maxed out as it was suggested it was by scouting experts previous to him being drafted well ahead of where it was predicted he should/would go. Wiz loves the Raiders. Let him grow at what even he considers his best position. I'm sorry, Raider Nation, to bring this touchy subject up but enough is enough.


Dont apologize for trying to shine a light on the truth.
as far as the nation goes, there are people who rant and rave about all things raiders with no perspective or honest appraisal, they are the ones that were calling Ro a beast three years ago because he stupidly body slammed a 5-9 150lb reciever costing us 15 yards...
WOOOOO hooooo!!
Great play!!!

I dont give a crap what dumbarse posters like that think or feel.

My interest in moving him to Guard is consistent with what youve written.
Weve had a long line of Probowl quality centers in our history going back to ole "00"..it has always been a staple of a Raiders team..even mr Bipolar whos name I will not mention was considered an elite center for a breif moment before he brought it crashing down on himself.

Im looking for the next "center piece" of the line and Wiz doesnt appear to be it IMO.He is serviceable and his "performance" at guard is a secondary consideration to his ability to be the "captain" and "anchor" of the o-line.
There are two TRUE centers in this draft that I would consider.
Barrett Jones and Kahlif Holmes.
drafting one of these guys would allow for quite a bit of evaluation in the OTAs.
If Berg and Wiz wind up being the best options @ LG and Center so be it...But if Jones/holmes shows a better instinct or push then you move Wis to LG...DESPITE WHAT HE "SAYS" and berg can try to unseat a wholly ineffective Mike Breisel.

This years success depends on our ability to open BIG holes for D mac to run down hill. If we see the kind of slop that we saw last year, we will be a 0-16 or 2-14.

When did Wiz play Center his rookie year?
he was slotted at left guard and with Veldheer and satele that line put 190 yards on Denver and 234 on the jets.
he was a Rookie of the week and made the all rookie team as a guard.
he was completely irrelevant as a center.


You miss read me. I'm saying Wiz was basically a rookie in 2012 because it was his 1st full season as a C and statistics suggest he played better at C in an ill-suited system than he did out of position at LG in a system that plays to his strengths.

FWIW, Pepsi rookie of the week is an award voted on by fans not a serious evaluation or accomplishment. Hell I might have even voted for him. As far as your evaluations you covered a lot of prospects:

Bergstrom: ZBS OT with short arms. BOLD STATEMENT: Will not be on the roster in 2014.
Wiz 2.0: PBS C. More heady than athletic. Intel to make OL calls
Barrett Jones: PBS C. Very solid player at C but neither Wiz or Jones will be a world-beater at OG. Hence, Jones is not a significant enough upgrade at C to scrap Wiz's development.
Holmes: ZBS C at best. Satele-like
Kendrick: is the C in this draft. Jones is the most versatile interior OL in spots. Holmes is scheme-specific.

This is my last word on this subject C would be a complete luxury pick at this point. The Raiders have a C if this is really about upgrading the C position. Upgrading the C should weigh pretty low on the priority list. I only commented because of the misrepresentation of statistics.
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socallbraider


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
socallbraider wrote:

Thanks for the correction,obviously I misread the info...I again dont hold 2012 as any indication as to what our line can do because they were so missuited to the ZBS, Im concerned that his runblocking grade being so poor as a center may impact our ability to effectively run the ball.2011 began and finished with several games in the 150+ range..whatever youd like to attribute that to is fine by me as long as we see more of it.
Moving wis to center,carlisle to the LT side and adding a guard was like replacing the entire interior of the line.
It showed.

If I could have my druthers I would trade down in the 1st to allow myself extra picks and bring in a couple of O -linemen.Its hard to relieve Wis from any responsibility to our Rushing issues as lacking as we were getting a "push" in the middle.

also,you take on the idea you dont need quality interior linemen to run the ball would require a bit more substance then youve produced to sell me on.There have been many teams with quality tackles that couldnt run the ball worth a darn.


On one hand you are holding Wiz accountable for playing poorly (which he did not btw he was average 17th out 36 qualifiers) in a ZBS yet giving him credit for performance in a PBS that the statistics that you are using suggest he did not earn.

Look at the rosters of the last 11 Super Bowl winners and you will find very few spent high draft picks at interior of the OL and got by with average play.


I dont know what to attribute the lines success to.
I know that Mcfaddens struggles in reading blocks wasnt the only issue going on in the 2012 line.
AS Im sure you knw a lot is made of "linemates" gelling.In 2011 we averaged 156.8 yards a game rushing the first 10 games of the year with Dmac and Bush.

We let satele go, we moved RG to LG..we moved LG to C.all these things disrupte the lines continuity.But if you look at the teams that hsitoricaly have had success in a PBS their is a long history of Probowl level centers.

"blaming" wiz is lazy perhaps...what I should be saying is I would try to focus on what brought us so much success in 2011.WE currently have three of those 5 on the roster.Breisel can stay @ RG since hes obvioulsy not going any where,and If it were up to me I would move Wiz back to Guard and plug in the best pure center that was available in FA or the draft.
But,if thats not in the cards then we better be sure Berg is game ready.
too many "if" surronding a unit that two years ago only needed a younger LG goin g forward.


BTW...17 out of 36 is not really what im looking for.


And the 51st out of 78 in 2011 by Wiz at LG is? Short math suggests Wiz was statistically better playing C in an ill-suited system in his ROOKIE season (as it was his 1st full season at C) than he was playing LG in a system that plays to his strengths.

Wiz is far more stout than Satele. How about we let wiz get one full season at C in the system he is most suited for? Besides, Wiz is calling himself a center. I don't understand why we just can't let this go?

I've been holding on to this too long. Wiz is beloved in Raider Nation but the truth is Wiz is an average athlete whose frame/strength SEEMS to be maxed out as it was suggested it was by scouting experts previous to him being drafted well ahead of where it was predicted he should/would go. Wiz loves the Raiders. Let him grow at what even he considers his best position. I'm sorry, Raider Nation, to bring this touchy subject up but enough is enough.


Dont apologize for trying to shine a light on the truth.
as far as the nation goes, there are people who rant and rave about all things raiders with no perspective or honest appraisal, they are the ones that were calling Ro a beast three years ago because he stupidly body slammed a 5-9 150lb reciever costing us 15 yards...
WOOOOO hooooo!!
Great play!!!

I dont give a crap what dumbarse posters like that think or feel.

My interest in moving him to Guard is consistent with what youve written.
Weve had a long line of Probowl quality centers in our history going back to ole "00"..it has always been a staple of a Raiders team..even mr Bipolar whos name I will not mention was considered an elite center for a breif moment before he brought it crashing down on himself.

Im looking for the next "center piece" of the line and Wiz doesnt appear to be it IMO.He is serviceable and his "performance" at guard is a secondary consideration to his ability to be the "captain" and "anchor" of the o-line.
There are two TRUE centers in this draft that I would consider.
Barrett Jones and Kahlif Holmes.
drafting one of these guys would allow for quite a bit of evaluation in the OTAs.
If Berg and Wiz wind up being the best options @ LG and Center so be it...But if Jones/holmes shows a better instinct or push then you move Wis to LG...DESPITE WHAT HE "SAYS" and berg can try to unseat a wholly ineffective Mike Breisel.

This years success depends on our ability to open BIG holes for D mac to run down hill. If we see the kind of slop that we saw last year, we will be a 0-16 or 2-14.

When did Wiz play Center his rookie year?
he was slotted at left guard and with Veldheer and satele that line put 190 yards on Denver and 234 on the jets.
he was a Rookie of the week and made the all rookie team as a guard.
he was completely irrelevant as a center.


You miss read me. I'm saying Wiz was basically a rookie in 2012 because it was his 1st full season as a C and statistics suggest he played better at C in an ill-suited system than he did out of position at LG in a system that plays to his strengths.

FWIW, Pepsi rookie of the week is an award voted on by fans not a serious evaluation or accomplishment. Hell I might have even voted for him. As far as your evaluations you covered a lot of prospects:

Bergstrom: ZBS OT with short arms. BOLD STATEMENT: Will not be on the roster in 2014.
Wiz 2.0: PBS C. More heady than athletic. Intel to make OL calls
Barrett Jones: PBS C. Very solid player at C but neither Wiz or Jones will be a world-beater at OG. Hence, Jones is not a significant enough upgrade at C to scrap Wiz's development.
Holmes: ZBS C at best. Satele-like
Kendrick: is the C in this draft. Jones is the most versatile interior OL in spots. Holmes is scheme-specific.

This is my last word on this subject C would be a complete luxury pick at this point. The Raiders have a C if this is really about upgrading the C position. Upgrading the C should weigh pretty low on the priority list. I only commented because of the misrepresentation of statistics.


Thank you for clarifing....I think you know from all the back and forth regarding Bergstrom and why/for what he was drafted ,that I have little hope for him.rather the evaluating his measurables Im infering from his inability to stand out against pretty dismal competition in carlisle and Breisel,or not even getting a sniff @ RT when barnes and smith were routinely a revolving door for edge rushers.

I disagree with your Jones assessment. I think he will be quite good @ center. He played injured in bothe the sec championship game and the Bcs championship..he was an all american at three positions...regardless of where he might wind up, I think he would be an amazing P/u for us.

If we got Long,Jones, and one of the top RB prospects...(even if they are third down guys) Boerner,taylor,Franklin, or if lattimore drops ..I would be so stocked for the future of our offense.

also Holmes is not a scheme centric prospect by any means. he has the tools for any system but could use a little more weight and strength for if he is on a exclusively PBS team, most "scouts" are pigeon holing him as a ZBS simply based on strength, that is about the easiest fix a player could have.
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