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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
kenney wrote:
So, I was thinking and thought I would propose this question to you guys: would the team improve with Andy Dalton at quarterback? I like Dalton and while he ended last year on a down note, think he is a long-term starter in the NFL. He definitely has weak spots to his game, but I can't help but thinking he is probably better than Matt Schaub.

Dalton is accurate, is athletic, and has a track record of winning. Arm strength is the big question here.

Thoughts? Analysis?


I actually see Dalton as very similar to Schaub - plenty smart, but can make mistakes if everything doesn't go as planned upon the snap of the ball, accurate in the shorter stuff but worthless when it comes to throwing downfield, prone to shrink when the stage is big - Dalton is a bit swifter on his feet, but doesn't have as much of an internal clock vs Schaub. That internal clock is something that can be worked on as a career progresses, so we can expect Dalton to get better at that.

This all being said - if we're going a new direction with a QB, I want this to be a grand slam of a move. Not just trading up for the same thing, albiet younger. Matt has 16 games to prove himself as a franchise QB, much like last season where he had to prove he can withstand a beating for 16 games. 2013 will tell us if we need a new QB, and next year's class - Teddy Bridgewater, Johnny Manziel, Tajh Boyd among others - seems to be pretty loaded, moreso than this upcoming class. Might not be as deep as last years' class, but a strong class nonetheless.


I think all people moaning about Matt Schaub not being Tom Brady or Peyton Manning ought to be required to name the replacement and how we get him. kenney at least, names names except that NOBODY lets decent QBs walk in free agency and salary cap floors eliminate even the uber cheapskate Bengals from letting Dalton even walk (unless the Raiders are willing to sell their souls again). Andy Dalton even sounds like a fair enough comparison, until you get to the part where the Texans have pounded him two years in a row in the playoffs (isn't the standard we apply to Schaub now winning in the playoffs?) In H-town the QB gets all the blame when we lose (even when the defense gets lit up) and none of the credit when we win (he's has AJ, after all). Seriously, if Matt Schaub wasn't locked up last offseason he would have been the #1 FA target BY FAR. Joe Flacco (who has been statistically inferior to Schaub every season in his career) just got $120 million with the best timed contract year run in NFL history. Next best FA's were Kevin Kolb, Matt Moore, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassell, Matt Hasselbeck. Ick.

As for the draft, throw Luck & RG3 off the table as you only get into position for players like that by being really bad, so you're looking at Tannehill & Weeden who didn't improve their teams yet and Osweiler, Russell Wilson, and Foles. Sure Wilson was a revelation, but raise your hands if you think Kubiak is the type of coach who can work outside of his script (he couldn't even figure out that it made sense to throw to his FB/TE out of the backfield once in a while.) Year before, again take Newton off the table and you're left with Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, before you get to Dalton & Kaepernick (another QB you can't see working within Kubiak's tightly controlled script). Year before that your looking at Bradford, Tebow, Clausen, McCoy. There is not one attainable QB amongst any of these that I would take over Schaub, at least without a coaching change. Although I see little chance that Schaub would be unseated in the next 2-3 years I just don't see this as the draft for any developmental flyers as several of these bums that will be taken in the late 1st/2nd would be 4th/5th round backups in most years. I would be VERY peeved if we grabbed some developmental QB in the 2nd or 3rd with starter quality safeties still on the board in a deep class at a position we've never successfully drafted a starter (unless you consider Quin's demotion).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
As for the draft, throw Luck & RG3 off the table as you only get into position for players like that by being really bad, so you're looking at Tannehill & Weeden who didn't improve their teams yet and Osweiler, Russell Wilson, and Foles. Sure Wilson was a revelation, but raise your hands if you think Kubiak is the type of coach who can work outside of his script (he couldn't even figure out that it made sense to throw to his FB/TE out of the backfield once in a while.) Year before, again take Newton off the table and you're left with Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, before you get to Dalton & Kaepernick (another QB you can't see working within Kubiak's tightly controlled script). Year before that your looking at Bradford, Tebow, Clausen, McCoy. There is not one attainable QB amongst any of these that I would take over Schaub, at least without a coaching change. Although I see little chance that Schaub would be unseated in the next 2-3 years I just don't see this as the draft for any developmental flyers as several of these bums that will be taken in the late 1st/2nd would be 4th/5th round backups in most years. I would be VERY peeved if we grabbed some developmental QB in the 2nd or 3rd with starter quality safeties still on the board in a deep class at a position we've never successfully drafted a starter (unless you consider Quin's demotion).


Well, very much like how Washington got RGIII...the Texans would have to move up to get him, and pay a King's ransom to do so. Given that the majority of this team has an answer for every major position, we'd actually be in a strong position to move 2-3 1st rounders to make a move to get [insert QB here]. (This being said, [insert QB here] would have to impress the scouting world to even justify such a move - much like RGIII proved himself with his Heisman campaign and individual workouts).

Now, this time last year...folks were lamenting the 'skins over the move. A 10-6 season later, a playoff berth for this traditionally downtrodden franchise tells me that it was the right move; The 'skins have worries over RGIIIs health, but who doesn't see the 'skins as an emerging power in the NFC?

Again - 16 games. Playoffs. We will know what we have in Matt Schaub, whether those looking to keep him are in the right, or those looking to get rid of him are right. If that DOESN'T happen, it behooves all to review over the options, and what it will take to get said option as a Texan.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenney wrote:
So, I was thinking and thought I would propose this question to you guys: would the team improve with Andy Dalton at quarterback? I like Dalton and while he ended last year on a down note, think he is a long-term starter in the NFL. He definitely has weak spots to his game, but I can't help but thinking he is probably better than Matt Schaub.

Dalton is accurate, is athletic, and has a track record of winning. Arm strength is the big question here.

Thoughts? Analysis?


Schaub is better right now. Dalton will almost certainly be better in three years. Seeing as our window is now, I'd rather have Schaub.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
I think all people moaning about Matt Schaub not being Tom Brady or Peyton Manning ought to be required to name the replacement and how we get him. kenney at least, names names except that NOBODY lets decent QBs walk in free agency and salary cap floors eliminate even the uber cheapskate Bengals from letting Dalton even walk (unless the Raiders are willing to sell their souls again). Andy Dalton even sounds like a fair enough comparison, until you get to the part where the Texans have pounded him two years in a row in the playoffs (isn't the standard we apply to Schaub now winning in the playoffs?) In H-town the QB gets all the blame when we lose (even when the defense gets lit up) and none of the credit when we win (he's has AJ, after all). Seriously, if Matt Schaub wasn't locked up last offseason he would have been the #1 FA target BY FAR. Joe Flacco (who has been statistically inferior to Schaub every season in his career) just got $120 million with the best timed contract year run in NFL history. Next best FA's were Kevin Kolb, Matt Moore, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassell, Matt Hasselbeck. Ick.


I glanced over this the first time, finally dug my heels into the message - by and large, Apollo nailed this one. If we're looking for a new QB, draft might be the ONLY way to go, because finding anything that remotely resembles a massive upgrade over Matt Schaub on the FA market is a very tough proposition.

By my count, there were only two "elite" QBs to ever jump ship via FA in the "salary cap" era, and those two were Peyton Manning and Drew Brees. Both have paid some massive dividends to the Broncos and the Saints, but both were anomaly-type situations: Manning was viewed as damaged goods with his neck procedure, and was commanding a salary that would inhibit paying other guys top dollar; Brees was damaged good, and wasn't even close to "elite" status when he was on the market. Maybe viewed as very good at best. The point is this - great QBs won't be found on the open market. If you have a QB that is testing the FA waters, it's safe to assume that he's had his chances, never lived up to his billing, and is now lucky to collect a paycheck while holding a clipboard. There might be a Manning, there might be a Brees, but the odds of finding that on the open market are somewhere between slim and none. Eli Manning isn't hitting the market, Ben Roethlensberger isn't hitting the market, Aaron Rodgers isn't hitting the market...you get what I'm saying.

The other option is trading for a franchise QB, and even that is met with mixed results - Jay Cutler was moved from Denver to Chicago, and that asking price was through the roof; I don't think Cutler has lived up to the asking price so far in his career. (And it's safe to assume that his movement was also an anomaly; Had the Broncos not "insulted" him via Josh McDaniels, he's still in Denver). Kevin Kolb was also traded, but that was predicated by the QB depth chart in Philly, a move I'm sure Andy Reid somewhat regrets, as Michael Vick completely backslid. Even then, the Cardinals lost more than they gained. KC? Matt Cassel was NOT going to start over Tom Brady under any circumstances, and KC was desperate for a QB. This proved to be a...bad idea. In fact? The only "traded QB" that experienced some level of success in the salary cap era was...the guy we're trying to get rid of, so to speak.

If the Texans feel as if going away from Schaub is the answer, you're not going to find "the guy" currently in the NFL. History shows that big named QBs don't hit the market (even middle-of-the-pack Phillip Rivers should be in San Diego next season, and he's the closest thing to a "franchise QB" that might see the market) and if history is any indication, there's a much greater chance that Terrelle Pryor and Ryan Mallett are more Cassel/Kolb than Schaub...
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were to have drawn up 2nd 10 year plan for the Texans it would go something like this. View 2012 - 2015 as our prime window to grab a ring or two. Resign nucleus to get thru that window (Schaub, Foster, AJ, Myers, Brown on offense and Watt, JJoe, Cushing, A. Smith, Manning, defense.) Coaching has similar window as Wade is 65 now and pretty much viewed as year to year at this point and how many Head Coaches remain effective 10 years into it as Kubiak would be looking at at 2016. We know franchise backs are cooked by 30 which is what Foster hits at 2016. AJ will be staring at 36 in 2016, Myers 35 and on down the line. Sure Watt, Cushing and co could maintain a decent defensive core for another 4 year cycle, especially if Merci, KJ and 2013/14 drafts yield a starter or two but defense alone isn't getting you there in todays NFL.

This leads to the "master" part of the plan. Plan on sucking out loud in 2016 and do a Colts-esque rebuild centered around our next franchise QB. It is better to run some garbage QB out there for a season and go 2-14 than to have some in-between solution that wills you to 7-9. If the Texans have accomplished the mission in 2013-2015 the fanbase will allow it especially if the season is used to clear off the big salaries and probably some Bagwell/Biggio-esque victory laps in a bad season (with AJ/Schaub/Foster). If you're doing the math, it means our future franchise QB will likely be a high school senior or college freshman right now, which is where our scouts should be focused. The Texans should be moving into a "win now" mentality and avoiding stockpiling picks or going for quantity vs. quality. We are at "trade up" stage and rightfully seeking out some strategic smaller window signings like Reed, Lechler, etc. The way I see it 2013 & 2014 are the APEX of the window, but the Broncos & Patriots are likely viewing their windows similarly, so we better be focused on getting past those two (why a nickel or FS needs to be a priority).

I do think Rick probably has some tricks up his sleeve as it pertains to WR as he has to know that putting his eggs completely in a rookie's basket is risky, especially with Schaub/Kubiak's conservative nature integrating young talent (nothing too sexy, but something like a draft day deal for Santana Moss or a late move for Danario Alexander who inexplicably is still sitting out there for only an original tender which is essentially just a right of first refusal for the Chargers since he was undrafted). It wouldn't shock me to see Brandon Lloyd or Devery Henderson as Texans post-draft signing to bridge to a first round WR.
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Texansfan713


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We resigned Ryan Harris. I wonder if that means we wont target OT early in the draft?
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texansfan713 wrote:
We resigned Ryan Harris. I wonder if that means we wont target OT early in the draft?


Nope. Just a quality depth re-signing. He's better than Rashad Butler who flopped last year before going down with the injury. I don't think RT is way up on the Texans list regardless and I think it's quite telling that Winston is getting so little attention. What's really going to drive me nuts is that somebody is going to swoop in and grab Andre Smith on a one year deal because his agent has vastly overshot his market and the Bengals aren't going to budge. While it wouldn't outright shock me to see the Texans draft a T early, I suspect the motivating factor would be to groom a swing tackle since we have no real backup for Duane Brown moreso than an RT starter. Also wouldn't shock me to see Butler brought back as DBs backup at a minimum salary. I'm not sold on Newton, but it's hard to imagine the Texans abandoning that plan just 14 games into it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Texansfan713 wrote:
We resigned Ryan Harris. I wonder if that means we wont target OT early in the draft?


Nope. Just a quality depth re-signing. He's better than Rashad Butler who flopped last year before going down with the injury. I don't think RT is way up on the Texans list regardless and I think it's quite telling that Winston is getting so little attention. What's really going to drive me nuts is that somebody is going to swoop in and grab Andre Smith on a one year deal because his agent has vastly overshot his market and the Bengals aren't going to budge. While it wouldn't outright shock me to see the Texans draft a T early, I suspect the motivating factor would be to groom a swing tackle since we have no real backup for Duane Brown moreso than an RT starter. Also wouldn't shock me to see Butler brought back as DBs backup at a minimum salary. I'm not sold on Newton, but it's hard to imagine the Texans abandoning that plan just 14 games into it.


All true. Winston is supposedly asking for $3 - $4M a year. Exquise me?? Bad back & knee , All-Pro Vollmer got $4M a year and can play in any system. Winston is pretty much limited to the right side of a ZBS. I think Rosenhaus is banking on someone with a load of cash having to spend it after the draft. Otherwise Eric's going to have to settle for a one year, $1.5M deal.

As far as a potential pick in the draft David Quessenberry (San Jose St.) and Reid Fragel (OSU) look like solid swing tackle prospects. If we don't end up drafting anyone - since Harris is now back on board, I could see signing either of the two V-tech guys (Vinston Painter or Nick Becton) as UDFAs.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
kenney wrote:
So, I was thinking and thought I would propose this question to you guys: would the team improve with Andy Dalton at quarterback? I like Dalton and while he ended last year on a down note, think he is a long-term starter in the NFL. He definitely has weak spots to his game, but I can't help but thinking he is probably better than Matt Schaub.

Dalton is accurate, is athletic, and has a track record of winning. Arm strength is the big question here.

Thoughts? Analysis?


I actually see Dalton as very similar to Schaub - plenty smart, but can make mistakes if everything doesn't go as planned upon the snap of the ball, accurate in the shorter stuff but worthless when it comes to throwing downfield, prone to shrink when the stage is big - Dalton is a bit swifter on his feet, but doesn't have as much of an internal clock vs Schaub. That internal clock is something that can be worked on as a career progresses, so we can expect Dalton to get better at that.

This all being said - if we're going a new direction with a QB, I want this to be a grand slam of a move. Not just trading up for the same thing, albiet younger. Matt has 16 games to prove himself as a franchise QB, much like last season where he had to prove he can withstand a beating for 16 games. 2013 will tell us if we need a new QB, and next year's class - Teddy Bridgewater, Johnny Manziel, Tajh Boyd among others - seems to be pretty loaded, moreso than this upcoming class. Might not be as deep as last years' class, but a strong class nonetheless.


I think all people moaning about Matt Schaub not being Tom Brady or Peyton Manning ought to be required to name the replacement and how we get him. kenney at least, names names except that NOBODY lets decent QBs walk in free agency and salary cap floors eliminate even the uber cheapskate Bengals from letting Dalton even walk (unless the Raiders are willing to sell their souls again). Andy Dalton even sounds like a fair enough comparison, until you get to the part where the Texans have pounded him two years in a row in the playoffs (isn't the standard we apply to Schaub now winning in the playoffs?) In H-town the QB gets all the blame when we lose (even when the defense gets lit up) and none of the credit when we win (he's has AJ, after all). Seriously, if Matt Schaub wasn't locked up last offseason he would have been the #1 FA target BY FAR. Joe Flacco (who has been statistically inferior to Schaub every season in his career) just got $120 million with the best timed contract year run in NFL history. Next best FA's were Kevin Kolb, Matt Moore, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassell, Matt Hasselbeck. Ick.

As for the draft, throw Luck & RG3 off the table as you only get into position for players like that by being really bad, so you're looking at Tannehill & Weeden who didn't improve their teams yet and Osweiler, Russell Wilson, and Foles. Sure Wilson was a revelation, but raise your hands if you think Kubiak is the type of coach who can work outside of his script (he couldn't even figure out that it made sense to throw to his FB/TE out of the backfield once in a while.) Year before, again take Newton off the table and you're left with Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, before you get to Dalton & Kaepernick (another QB you can't see working within Kubiak's tightly controlled script). Year before that your looking at Bradford, Tebow, Clausen, McCoy. There is not one attainable QB amongst any of these that I would take over Schaub, at least without a coaching change. Although I see little chance that Schaub would be unseated in the next 2-3 years I just don't see this as the draft for any developmental flyers as several of these bums that will be taken in the late 1st/2nd would be 4th/5th round backups in most years. I would be VERY peeved if we grabbed some developmental QB in the 2nd or 3rd with starter quality safeties still on the board in a deep class at a position we've never successfully drafted a starter (unless you consider Quin's demotion).


Pretty much nailed how I feel about it as well. Great post Cool
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Texansfan713 wrote:
We resigned Ryan Harris. I wonder if that means we wont target OT early in the draft?


Nope. Just a quality depth re-signing. He's better than Rashad Butler who flopped last year before going down with the injury. I don't think RT is way up on the Texans list regardless and I think it's quite telling that Winston is getting so little attention. What's really going to drive me nuts is that somebody is going to swoop in and grab Andre Smith on a one year deal because his agent has vastly overshot his market and the Bengals aren't going to budge. While it wouldn't outright shock me to see the Texans draft a T early, I suspect the motivating factor would be to groom a swing tackle since we have no real backup for Duane Brown moreso than an RT starter. Also wouldn't shock me to see Butler brought back as DBs backup at a minimum salary. I'm not sold on Newton, but it's hard to imagine the Texans abandoning that plan just 14 games into it.


I actually think that the Texans will be looking at RT early - much earlier that any of us expect, actually. We all bemoan Derek Newton for some rhyme or reason, but we're all willing to let him grow into the position...but something we haven't spoke about much is that Newton had pretty serious knee and ankle surgery this offseason (want to say patella and achillies? Two nightmare tendons to have to fix...)

Harris coming back is setting off red flags; I don't think Newton is going to be ready to start the season, and I see it as far as placing Newton on the PUP list going into TC. I see the Texans going as high as their original 3rd rounder for a RT...
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jch1911 wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Texansfan713 wrote:
We resigned Ryan Harris. I wonder if that means we wont target OT early in the draft?


Nope. Just a quality depth re-signing. He's better than Rashad Butler who flopped last year before going down with the injury. I don't think RT is way up on the Texans list regardless and I think it's quite telling that Winston is getting so little attention. What's really going to drive me nuts is that somebody is going to swoop in and grab Andre Smith on a one year deal because his agent has vastly overshot his market and the Bengals aren't going to budge. While it wouldn't outright shock me to see the Texans draft a T early, I suspect the motivating factor would be to groom a swing tackle since we have no real backup for Duane Brown moreso than an RT starter. Also wouldn't shock me to see Butler brought back as DBs backup at a minimum salary. I'm not sold on Newton, but it's hard to imagine the Texans abandoning that plan just 14 games into it.


All true. Winston is supposedly asking for $3 - $4M a year. Exquise me?? Bad back & knee , All-Pro Vollmer got $4M a year and can play in any system. Winston is pretty much limited to the right side of a ZBS. I think Rosenhaus is banking on someone with a load of cash having to spend it after the draft. Otherwise Eric's going to have to settle for a one year, $1.5M deal.

As far as a potential pick in the draft David Quessenberry (San Jose St.) and Reid Fragel (OSU) look like solid swing tackle prospects. If we don't end up drafting anyone - since Harris is now back on board, I could see signing either of the two V-tech guys (Vinston Painter or Nick Becton) as UDFAs.


I have to admit, I'm quite conflicted on the RT front. Simple fact was that the right side of the line deserves as much blame for our mediocre offensive effort last year as anything does. If the run doesn't work, nothing else falls in line for us as play action isn't fooling anyone on 2nd and 9 (see Patriots who never bit in 2 games). It's hard for me to tell if it was Newton/Harris & Jones/Caldwell that were such a dropoff from Winston and Brisiel or if was just a matter of it taking any new T/G tandem a while to gel in the ZBS which is predicated upon operating as one unit. Fact is, Winston and Brisiel were both exposed last season as components who's individual value was far less than their value to the whole, so perhaps it's more about chemistry than individual talent. I know that Wade Smith has been a huge factor in Duane Brown's development, so consistency does matter. Do you just roll with Newton and Jones next year and hope familiarity and experience together is the key or do you try to upgrade the RT talent and see what we have in a slimmed down Brandon Brooks who was the one really drafted for RG?
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the roster, we probably bring in a vet ILB and a CB and knowing Kub a vet Wr. Anybody decent out there?
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lumberjackchris wrote:
Looking at the roster, we probably bring in a vet ILB and a CB and knowing Kub a vet Wr. Anybody decent out there?


I would welcome the addition of any of these:

WR - Brandon Lloyd - he's a headcase, but still a legit deep threat we can plug in as a #4 and would provide best available insurance to AJ injury.

WR - Devery Henderson - to me, he's an ideal fit as he's the deep "yang" to Martin's short "ying" from the slot. We need some wheels at WR and Henderson can still blow past people.

NT - Shaun Cody - worth bringing back at vet minimum. Clearly still better than Earl Mitchell since he started the playoff games. If Sunny or Chris Jones beat him out, so be it, but depth is very light here right now.

CB/S - Quentin Jammer - best available and would be #3 safety until Swearinger is ready. Thought of being a tweaked groin away from Brice McCain or Brandon Harris starting at CB keeps me up nights.

CB/S - Jason Allen - I didn't like him as a #2, but he's far better than anything we have at #4-#5 right now and actually can hang with fast receivers deep unlike Jackson, Harris, McCain, Carmichael. Would be worth keeping as a 6th CB and activating against the teams with burners or spread attacks.

CB/S - invite one of the following vets to camp and see if he can still play and at the very least have them impart wisdom to the youngins. None provide the missing element which is speed, but Roc Carmichael hasn't shown a thing and these at least know how to play in this league.
Marcus Trufant
Charles Woodson
Nate Clements

ILB - Bradie James. Say what you will, as a run stopper he's better than anything we have. It's not his fault he was out there on coverage downs that he was never supposed to be out there for. He's only 32 folks.
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really Henderson, a NT I would love is former saint Seddrick Ellis. He fits Wades profile and has talent with still being relatively young.
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im most worried about NT currently. Too many question marks for me to feel good, and although only being on the field X% of the time last year, or typically....It will wear a D out and put them in a bad position if teams are able to zip a RB up the middle for 3 yards without being touched game in and out.
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