Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

The truth about Pryor vs. SD
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 6, 7, 8 ... 12, 13, 14  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Oakland Raiders
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5705
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/165714-third-times-a-charm-terrelle-pryor-next-sophmore-heisman-winner

See scroll down abouta page and a half. "There was no sign of the awkward, shotput-like throwing motion he sometimes displayed last season."

Shotput? Who cares... Just pretty much ruined a future HOFer and turned him into a mental case right there. Does Peyton Manning have picture perfect mechanics? No. He has what he needs to be a natural passer and get the job done. Pryor is trying to be perfect, and failing at being Terrelle Pryor. This is already 4 or 5 years ago though, as Django pointed out. Can it ever go back? Or can he get himself back with the new mechnics? Dunno... Doesn't look like it.


What's wrong with Peyton's mechanics??? I always thought Peyton had a very efficient release and excellent footwork?


Not saying there's anything wrong with his mechanics. I am just saying that pretty much no QB has picture perfect mechanics.
AFA Manning, if you were going to make him a "perfect" passer as far as mechanics you would probably want more hip turn, less base on his front foot, and you'd get rid of the tapping feet. You'd probably want some more arm strength too. But who the hell cares. Because instead of that arm strength the guy just throws to the right guy at the right time, knowing his own arm strength and what, where and when he needs to throw it.

I am sure there are college QBs who had what a scout would call "perfect" mechanics, only to be noone any of us would remember because perfect mechanics are not the end all and be all of a HOF passer. See Kyle Boller or Jeff George and the way they can spin the ball. Not by any means relevant to greatness. Phillip Rivers has had some great years and his mechanics pretty much suck bad. Drew Brees is "too short", so is Russell Wilson. Brett Favre was too much of a gunslinger. Joe Montana didn't have a strong enough arm, looked like a tire salesman physically. So did Tom Brady.
Point is none of them is what you would consider dead perfect. Doesn't matter because they got the job done being whatever they had to be that worked. And this is what went wrong with Pryor. What he did and what he was worked, and I can see it as a freshman. Change that and you end up with a perfectly mechanical robot who can't play the game naturally any more and lost alot of what made him the #1 football prospect in the nation in high school.


My bad I was under the impression that when you suggested Peyton's mechanics "weren't perfect" that they were flawed in some way not a zero sum statement. Wink Obviously he isn't a young man anymore but I have heard in the past that Peyton had near perfect mechanics and I have also read that although unusual Peyton purposely moves his feet that way to speed release. We ALL do it but I would feel a bit uncomfortable with how that statement comes across.


Peyton's mechanics aren't bad at all, and any flaws are minimal. But my point was whatever perfect is isn't necessary. The way Peyton moves his feet is definitely a designed part of his game, it sets his motion as a repetitive action as well. It helps him keep himself starting his motion from the same mechanism every time, thus ensuring repetition and therefore accuracy and consistency. Nonetheless, it's unconventional. And there's nothing at all wrong with that.

As long as a guy's mechanics are not a significant limiting factor in his pro success, they can be whatever the player wants them to be. Limiting factors would be things like - simply too much sidearm to make it over the line. Too much off the back foot lending to too much inaccuracy, too much shotput killing necessary arm strength. But then again, if a player can execute despite the "flaw" in mechanics, there is neither a need to change it nor a reason.

And that's where I think Pryor falls in as a freshman. Some articles described it as a shotput motion. WHOOOOO CARRRRREEES. He had tons of zip, he had strength, he's 6'6" so noone was batting the ball down even if his arm was 3/4. But most importantly, he was comfortable looking and natural looking. Not in his own head, and not forcing himself to be something he is not. Shotput or not that previous motion he had was plenty good enough for the pros. Now he's changed, and will be lucky to turn his new robot motion into a pro passer with confidence enough to make the throws.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5264
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/165714-third-times-a-charm-terrelle-pryor-next-sophmore-heisman-winner

See scroll down abouta page and a half. "There was no sign of the awkward, shotput-like throwing motion he sometimes displayed last season."

Shotput? Who cares... Just pretty much ruined a future HOFer and turned him into a mental case right there. Does Peyton Manning have picture perfect mechanics? No. He has what he needs to be a natural passer and get the job done. Pryor is trying to be perfect, and failing at being Terrelle Pryor. This is already 4 or 5 years ago though, as Django pointed out. Can it ever go back? Or can he get himself back with the new mechnics? Dunno... Doesn't look like it.


What's wrong with Peyton's mechanics??? I always thought Peyton had a very efficient release and excellent footwork?


Not saying there's anything wrong with his mechanics. I am just saying that pretty much no QB has picture perfect mechanics.
AFA Manning, if you were going to make him a "perfect" passer as far as mechanics you would probably want more hip turn, less base on his front foot, and you'd get rid of the tapping feet. You'd probably want some more arm strength too. But who the hell cares. Because instead of that arm strength the guy just throws to the right guy at the right time, knowing his own arm strength and what, where and when he needs to throw it.

I am sure there are college QBs who had what a scout would call "perfect" mechanics, only to be noone any of us would remember because perfect mechanics are not the end all and be all of a HOF passer. See Kyle Boller or Jeff George and the way they can spin the ball. Not by any means relevant to greatness. Phillip Rivers has had some great years and his mechanics pretty much suck bad. Drew Brees is "too short", so is Russell Wilson. Brett Favre was too much of a gunslinger. Joe Montana didn't have a strong enough arm, looked like a tire salesman physically. So did Tom Brady.
Point is none of them is what you would consider dead perfect. Doesn't matter because they got the job done being whatever they had to be that worked. And this is what went wrong with Pryor. What he did and what he was worked, and I can see it as a freshman. Change that and you end up with a perfectly mechanical robot who can't play the game naturally any more and lost alot of what made him the #1 football prospect in the nation in high school.


My bad I was under the impression that when you suggested Peyton's mechanics "weren't perfect" that they were flawed in some way not a zero sum statement. Wink Obviously he isn't a young man anymore but I have heard in the past that Peyton had near perfect mechanics and I have also read that although unusual Peyton purposely moves his feet that way to speed release. We ALL do it but I would feel a bit uncomfortable with how that statement comes across.


Peyton's mechanics aren't bad at all, and any flaws are minimal. But my point was whatever perfect is isn't necessary. The way Peyton moves his feet is definitely a designed part of his game, it sets his motion as a repetitive action as well. It helps him keep himself starting his motion from the same mechanism every time, thus ensuring repetition and therefore accuracy and consistency. Nonetheless, it's unconventional. And there's nothing at all wrong with that.

As long as a guy's mechanics are not a significant limiting factor in his pro success, they can be whatever the player wants them to be. Limiting factors would be things like - simply too much sidearm to make it over the line. Too much off the back foot lending to too much inaccuracy, too much shotput killing necessary arm strength. But then again, if a player can execute despite the "flaw" in mechanics, there is neither a need to change it nor a reason.

And that's where I think Pryor falls in as a freshman. Some articles described it as a shotput motion. WHOOOOO CARRRRREEES. He had tons of zip, he had strength, he's 6'6" so noone was batting the ball down even if his arm was 3/4. But most importantly, he was comfortable looking and natural looking. Not in his own head, and not forcing himself to be something he is not. Shotput or not that previous motion he had was plenty good enough for the pros. Now he's changed, and will be lucky to turn his new robot motion into a pro passer with confidence enough to make the throws.


The problem with his throwing motions allows for recovery. You can get away with glitches in college but in the pros where the windows are tighter and CBs recover quicker if Pryor is going to be successful eventually he will have to complete passes in the middle of the field. That's what the Raiders stayed away from in the SD, either the ball was complete or out of bounds. Pryor knows the status quo will not do if he is to become a complete player. Not you per se but this is the beginning of the apologies "If the Raiders had never tried to change Pryor's mechanics . . . ." With all due respect I tend to stay away from conversations about Pryor so I'll hang up now and listen to your comments.
_________________
2013 Mancrush: DT Richardson, OT Joeckel, FS Vaccaro, FS Rambo, WR Dobson, RB Michael, TE McDonald, OT Foketi, WR Swope
Raidin wrote:
My love for Rod is growing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5705
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said the Raiders changed him. Watch lots of college Youtube on Pryor. Something changed after his freshman year.
He had much more zip, more power, and the same accuracy. A different motion, but he looked much more comfortable with it. And he would have been able to complete any pro throw tossing it like that. As a 19 year old mind you.
The Raiders didn't do that to him, I don't even think OSU or Tressel did. From everything I read, and I started reading up on it after this thread, it seems to me that during his freshman year he didn't throw more than 20 passes in any game. He may have looked more comfortable to the naked eye with his motion, but apparently he was gun shy passing. Next year he came out firing, and all proud of his new throwing motion. Proud like it was his own idea. A perfectionist thing for him, like he thought he wasn't good enough as he was or wanted to be some version of perfect that really isn't real and just exists in his own head. 5 years later, that's where he still is - lost in his own head.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11005
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raidr4life wrote:

Nah bro he showed his leadership in the SD game. Working with his teamates trying to get better shows he aint just sitting around wanting to be a backup his whole career.


"Great leader". LOL. I love how this guy gets crowned king for the most basic aspect of QBing LOL.

Pryor is nothing special. The sooner you see it, the sooner we don't have to live w/ this constant jock riding. It's pathetic. And to the bold, it's what he should be doing b/c he'll be lucky to be that LOL
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dmac505


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 724
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
raidr4life wrote:

Nah bro he showed his leadership in the SD game. Working with his teamates trying to get better shows he aint just sitting around wanting to be a backup his whole career.


"Great leader". LOL. I love how this guy gets crowned king for the most basic aspect of QBing LOL.

Pryor is nothing special. The sooner you see it, the sooner we don't have to live w/ this constant jock riding. It's pathetic. And to the bold, it's what he should be doing b/c he'll be lucky to be that LOL


yes its one of the most basic aspects... but given the fact its a basic aspect shows how valuable / desireable it is in a qb.

yes everyone thinks the QB is the leader of teams... but a lot of QBs are not, and it is a very over looked factor IMO
_________________


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11005
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmac505 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
raidr4life wrote:

Nah bro he showed his leadership in the SD game. Working with his teamates trying to get better shows he aint just sitting around wanting to be a backup his whole career.


"Great leader". LOL. I love how this guy gets crowned king for the most basic aspect of QBing LOL.

Pryor is nothing special. The sooner you see it, the sooner we don't have to live w/ this constant jock riding. It's pathetic. And to the bold, it's what he should be doing b/c he'll be lucky to be that LOL


yes its one of the most basic aspects... but given the fact its a basic aspect shows how valuable / desireable it is in a qb.

yes everyone thinks the QB is the leader of teams... but a lot of QBs are not, and it is a very over looked factor IMO


Bruce Gradkowski was an excellent leader and motivator. We should bring him back since this means so much. Hell, he's way better at it compared to Pryor.

GTFO out of Steel City, Bruce, and come home!!
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 2631
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
raidr4life wrote:

Nah bro he showed his leadership in the SD game. Working with his teamates trying to get better shows he aint just sitting around wanting to be a backup his whole career.


"Great leader". LOL. I love how this guy gets crowned king for the most basic aspect of QBing LOL.

Pryor is nothing special. The sooner you see it, the sooner we don't have to live w/ this constant jock riding. It's pathetic. And to the bold, it's what he should be doing b/c he'll be lucky to be that LOL


yes its one of the most basic aspects... but given the fact its a basic aspect shows how valuable / desireable it is in a qb.

yes everyone thinks the QB is the leader of teams... but a lot of QBs are not, and it is a very over looked factor IMO


Bruce Gradkowski was an excellent leader and motivator. We should bring him back since this means so much. Hell, he's way better at it compared to Pryor.

GTFO out of Steel City, Bruce, and come home!!


LOL the Steel City is his home.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dmac505


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 724
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
raidr4life wrote:

Nah bro he showed his leadership in the SD game. Working with his teamates trying to get better shows he aint just sitting around wanting to be a backup his whole career.


"Great leader". LOL. I love how this guy gets crowned king for the most basic aspect of QBing LOL.

Pryor is nothing special. The sooner you see it, the sooner we don't have to live w/ this constant jock riding. It's pathetic. And to the bold, it's what he should be doing b/c he'll be lucky to be that LOL


yes its one of the most basic aspects... but given the fact its a basic aspect shows how valuable / desireable it is in a qb.

yes everyone thinks the QB is the leader of teams... but a lot of QBs are not, and it is a very over looked factor IMO


Bruce Gradkowski was an excellent leader and motivator. We should bring him back since this means so much. Hell, he's way better at it compared to Pryor.

GTFO out of Steel City, Bruce, and come home!!


by no means am i saying pryor is the answer, but i dont think you can just discredit his leadership like you are.

you have such a bias against him that you cannot appreciate what he does bring to the table..

trying to downplay his leadership really shows your bias against him.
_________________


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 31844
Location: Rochester, NY
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmac505 wrote:
trying to downplay his leadership really shows your bias against him.


Personally, I find the leadership argument to be a moot point. Both of them are leaders. And for that matter, most QBs are. So why should either of them be lauded for something most QBs do? If anything its more of an indictment that people have to bring it up, in my opinion. Its like they're saying "See? He isn't bad at something." more than a compliment. Just how I see it.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dmac505


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 724
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
trying to downplay his leadership really shows your bias against him.


Personally, I find the leadership argument to be a moot point. Both of them are leaders. And for that matter, most QBs are. So why should either of them be lauded for something most QBs do? If anything its more of an indictment that people have to bring it up, in my opinion. Its like they're saying "See? He isn't bad at something." more than a compliment. Just how I see it.


i find people seem to think of leader as you either are one or you arent.

but i dont think its like that.... some players are better leaders than others. Palmers a good leader, says all the right things... but i do believe pryor is more of a natural leader on the field.

yes it is way less important than other characteristics like arm strength, foot work, (which is why i like palmer over pryor) but id take pryors leadership and work ethic over palmers.
_________________


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 9837
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmac505 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
trying to downplay his leadership really shows your bias against him.


Personally, I find the leadership argument to be a moot point. Both of them are leaders. And for that matter, most QBs are. So why should either of them be lauded for something most QBs do? If anything its more of an indictment that people have to bring it up, in my opinion. Its like they're saying "See? He isn't bad at something." more than a compliment. Just how I see it.


i find people seem to think of leader as you either are one or you arent.

but i dont think its like that.... some players are better leaders than others. Palmers a good leader, says all the right things... but i do believe pryor is more of a natural leader on the field.

yes it is way less important than other characteristics like arm strength, foot work, (which is why i like palmer over pryor) but id take pryors leadership and work ethic over palmers.


Why? Palmer not only does just as much as Pryor, but mentors Pryor on top of it...

Palmer came in after that trade and was running the no huddle a week or two later, just a small example but I'm not sure how anyone can question his work ethic.
_________________
O A K L A N D R A I D E R S
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dmac505


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 724
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
trying to downplay his leadership really shows your bias against him.


Personally, I find the leadership argument to be a moot point. Both of them are leaders. And for that matter, most QBs are. So why should either of them be lauded for something most QBs do? If anything its more of an indictment that people have to bring it up, in my opinion. Its like they're saying "See? He isn't bad at something." more than a compliment. Just how I see it.


i find people seem to think of leader as you either are one or you arent.

but i dont think its like that.... some players are better leaders than others. Palmers a good leader, says all the right things... but i do believe pryor is more of a natural leader on the field.

yes it is way less important than other characteristics like arm strength, foot work, (which is why i like palmer over pryor) but id take pryors leadership and work ethic over palmers.


Why? Palmer not only does just as much as Pryor, but mentors Pryor on top of it...

Palmer came in after that trade and was running the no huddle a week or two later, just a small example but I'm not sure how anyone can question his work ethic.


again, im not questioning it... Palmer has great work ethic.. but i just think pryors is better

working with 3 qb coaches, supposedly was practicing with some of our wrs a few weeks ago, ive read hes always the last one of the field, always trying to get more reps in, ect.

obviously im not there so i may be wrong... but from what ive gathered, it seems like pryor is working his butt off for this job
_________________


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11005
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
raidr4life wrote:

Nah bro he showed his leadership in the SD game. Working with his teamates trying to get better shows he aint just sitting around wanting to be a backup his whole career.


"Great leader". LOL. I love how this guy gets crowned king for the most basic aspect of QBing LOL.

Pryor is nothing special. The sooner you see it, the sooner we don't have to live w/ this constant jock riding. It's pathetic. And to the bold, it's what he should be doing b/c he'll be lucky to be that LOL


yes its one of the most basic aspects... but given the fact its a basic aspect shows how valuable / desireable it is in a qb.

yes everyone thinks the QB is the leader of teams... but a lot of QBs are not, and it is a very over looked factor IMO


Bruce Gradkowski was an excellent leader and motivator. We should bring him back since this means so much. Hell, he's way better at it compared to Pryor.

GTFO out of Steel City, Bruce, and come home!!


LOL the Steel City is his home.


I'm glad someone found the irony in the statement Smile hahaha
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11005
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmac505 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
raidr4life wrote:

Nah bro he showed his leadership in the SD game. Working with his teamates trying to get better shows he aint just sitting around wanting to be a backup his whole career.


"Great leader". LOL. I love how this guy gets crowned king for the most basic aspect of QBing LOL.

Pryor is nothing special. The sooner you see it, the sooner we don't have to live w/ this constant jock riding. It's pathetic. And to the bold, it's what he should be doing b/c he'll be lucky to be that LOL


yes its one of the most basic aspects... but given the fact its a basic aspect shows how valuable / desireable it is in a qb.

yes everyone thinks the QB is the leader of teams... but a lot of QBs are not, and it is a very over looked factor IMO


Bruce Gradkowski was an excellent leader and motivator. We should bring him back since this means so much. Hell, he's way better at it compared to Pryor.

GTFO out of Steel City, Bruce, and come home!!


by no means am i saying pryor is the answer, but i dont think you can just discredit his leadership like you are.

you have such a bias against him that you cannot appreciate what he does bring to the table..

trying to downplay his leadership really shows your bias against him.


Oh I'm not saying that you are implying he's the answer. I can discredit it b/c 90% of QBs show that exact same leadership and some are terrible. It's being pumped up in here b/c..... well I don't know why.

I have no bias either. I have seen a QB who hasn't gotten much better since his freshman year of college that STILL has a ton of problems and can't be any zip into passes except in perfect situations. Well, do we expect defensive lineman to just let him step into his throws? No, we don't. When this happens, he throws rainbows. That will lead to turnovers. This isn't a tough concept to understand. I honestly hold no bias. That will have to be the last time I tell you b/c I don't know how to say it otherwise.
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11005
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
trying to downplay his leadership really shows your bias against him.


Personally, I find the leadership argument to be a moot point. Both of them are leaders. And for that matter, most QBs are. So why should either of them be lauded for something most QBs do? If anything its more of an indictment that people have to bring it up, in my opinion. Its like they're saying "See? He isn't bad at something." more than a compliment. Just how I see it.


Exactly. Completely going hand-in-hand w/ people are pumping him up for stuff that middle school kids do.

"Did you see him run the offense!!!???".... big deal.
"He's a good leader and showed it!!!"...... great. Everyone does.
_________________


PM sig requests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Oakland Raiders All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 6, 7, 8 ... 12, 13, 14  Next
Page 7 of 14

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group