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Ravens telling WR Anquan Boldin to take pay-cut; Refuses
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
The only ignorance that's going on here are the Ravens for thinking they're making a good decision by asking Boldin to take a pay cut.


When Ozzie Newsome gets doubted, things generally end poorly for the doubter.

What should we be doing/have done to clear cap space instead of cutting Boldin?


Asking others to take paycuts.


And what if they say no? Do you cut them? Who are these players and what would cutting them do to our cap?


I'm not saying cut them, but at least ask them to restructure or take a pay cut to allow others to be signed. Asking Boldin for a paycut, to me, seems like a last resort option, which it may very well be, idk, but I just don't understand HIM of all people being asked to take a pay cut.

But hey that's just my opinion on the subject.
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
The only logical choice in that 3 player scenario is Ellerbe. Ed Reed has 1 more year or so left in him, and even at that he's not even half of what he used to be. The unknown player is obviously unknown so, yeah...

Either way, we know what we are getting with Boldin. He can still play, he's got a lot left, and he's coming off his best postseaon run EVER, in which he was arguably the MVP of, and we are asking him to take a paycut...I understand "this is is a business", but that's just ridiculous. Ask someone else who ISN'T playing up to their contract (Ray Rice, I'm looking at YOU!) to take a pay cut, not Anquan Boldin.


I agree with you. I'd take Boldin over Ellerbe or any other reasonable signing I can think off.

I'm just trying to steer the discussion back to what it should be. Not about Flacco or us dissing Boldin. We should have more than enough cap space to keep Boldin through his contract, but apparently the front office thinks there are better ways to utilize that space.

We should be guessing what that space would be used for and why or why isn't it worth losing Boldin.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wackywabbit wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
The only logical choice in that 3 player scenario is Ellerbe. Ed Reed has 1 more year or so left in him, and even at that he's not even half of what he used to be. The unknown player is obviously unknown so, yeah...

Either way, we know what we are getting with Boldin. He can still play, he's got a lot left, and he's coming off his best postseaon run EVER, in which he was arguably the MVP of, and we are asking him to take a paycut...I understand "this is is a business", but that's just ridiculous. Ask someone else who ISN'T playing up to their contract (Ray Rice, I'm looking at YOU!) to take a pay cut, not Anquan Boldin.


I agree with you. I'd take Boldin over Ellerbe or any other reasonable signing I can think off.

I'm just trying to steer the discussion back to what it should be. Not about Flacco or us dissing Boldin. We should have more than enough cap space to keep Boldin through his contract, but apparently the front office thinks there are better ways to utilize that space.

We should be guessing what that space would be used for and why or why isn't it worth losing Boldin.


Agreed completely.
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
What should we be doing/have done to clear cap space instead of cutting Boldin?


To me, Leach is a better option to cut than Boldin. Though it's a smallish sample size, under Caldwell he was only playing around 30% of our snaps, and that sort of niche production isn't worth a $4.3 million cap hit in my opinion. Leach is terrific, but I think a downgrade at an easily replaceable position that is trending downwards in importance within our offense is easier to swallow than replacing Boldin with Tandon Stonehands Doss.

I'm keeping the faith in Ozzie, and I think/hope that there's room here to negotiate an agreement with Boldin, but if we're talking about the easiest savings on this roster, I can't look further than Vonta Leach.
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GaTechRavens


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
What should we be doing/have done to clear cap space instead of cutting Boldin?


To me, Leach is a better option to cut than Boldin. Though it's a smallish sample size, under Caldwell he was only playing around 30% of our snaps, and that sort of niche production isn't worth a $4.3 million cap hit in my opinion. Leach is terrific, but I think a downgrade at an easily replaceable position that is trending downwards in importance within our offense is easier to swallow than replacing Boldin with Tandon Stonehands Doss.

I'm keeping the faith in Ozzie, and I think/hope that there's room here to negotiate an agreement with Boldin, but if we're talking about the easiest savings on this roster, I can't look further than Vonta Leach.


Why not cut both?

I guess I need to clarify my stance here. I utterly despise the receiver position. I think it's easily the most overrated position in football and, excluding fullback, quite possibly the least important on either side of the ball. I think there's a glaring lack of correlation between the quality of a wide receiver and overall offensive success that few people, if any, have been proactive enough to discover.

Now, if there's anything I despise more than the receiver position in general, it's possession receivers. I believe, once again in the context of overall offensive success, it's a complete dime-a-dozen position. Separation is the key to success in my mind, and that's going to come through a) having a good quarterback or b) having a deep threat. I see no reason to believe why a great QB needs a big name possession receivers when so many scrubs have come in and succeeded with elites throwing them the ball.

A few big playoff catches have, let's be real here, completely skewed Boldin's reputation. I don't think that would repeat itself over the course of the regular season or another playoff run, and considering the fact that a lack of separation (caused by scheme or otherwise) was what doomed this offense for the entirety of the Cam Cam era, I'd be more comfortable with cap space than I would be with Boldin, even at a slightly reduced price and even with no obvious replacement. I realize how unpopular that opinion is, but this isn't one of those "have I lost my mind" things like the way I speculated about letting Flacco go last month. I genuinely and wholeheartedly believe this, and it's backed by a philosophy I've embraced for quite a while now.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
What should we be doing/have done to clear cap space instead of cutting Boldin?


To me, Leach is a better option to cut than Boldin. Though it's a smallish sample size, under Caldwell he was only playing around 30% of our snaps, and that sort of niche production isn't worth a $4.3 million cap hit in my opinion. Leach is terrific, but I think a downgrade at an easily replaceable position that is trending downwards in importance within our offense is easier to swallow than replacing Boldin with Tandon Stonehands Doss.

I'm keeping the faith in Ozzie, and I think/hope that there's room here to negotiate an agreement with Boldin, but if we're talking about the easiest savings on this roster, I can't look further than Vonta Leach.


I agree with this also. Vonta Leach is FAR more expendable than Anquan Boldin is. Like not even close.
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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mcdni


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they are going to cut Leach regardless of what happens with Boldin. They might need the cap relief from Boldin on top of Leach's cap relief and maybe 1 or 2 others like Jacoby Jones.

I would hate to lose Boldin but if we lose him for cap reasons then so be it. It sucks but it is what it is.

We will just have to continue to draft well to replace expensive vets with cheaper rookies. Retool not rebuild seems to be our philosophy since the last great cap purge in the early 2000s.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
I guess I need to clarify my stance here. I utterly despise the receiver position. I think it's easily the most overrated position in football and, excluding fullback, quite possibly the least important on either side of the ball. I think there's a glaring lack of correlation between the quality of a wide receiver and overall offensive success that few people, if any, have been proactive enough to discover.

Now, if there's anything I despise more than the receiver position in general, it's possession receivers. I believe, once again in the context of overall offensive success, it's a complete dime-a-dozen position. Separation is the key to success in my mind, and that's going to come through a) having a good quarterback or b) having a deep threat. I see no reason to believe why a great QB needs a big name possession receivers when so many scrubs have come in and succeeded with elites throwing them the ball.

A few big playoff catches have, let's be real here, completely skewed Boldin's reputation. I don't think that would repeat itself over the course of the regular season or another playoff run, and considering the fact that a lack of separation (caused by scheme or otherwise) was what doomed this offense for the entirety of the Cam Cam era, I'd be more comfortable with cap space than I would be with Boldin, even at a slightly reduced price and even with no obvious replacement. I realize how unpopular that opinion is, but this isn't one of those "have I lost my mind" things like the way I speculated about letting Flacco go last month. I genuinely and wholeheartedly believe this, and it's backed by a philosophy I've embraced for quite a while now.


I agree to an extent with the idea that receivers are replaceable parts, I do have some concerns. While this is based more on intuition than any data-oriented study, I'm of the belief that an important component in building a top-flight offense and passing game in particular is continuity. I think having a quarterback establish trust, chemistry, and heightened understanding with his receivers is important in having an offense take flight. In Flacco's case, he's had a revolving door of targets throughout his career, from Derrick Mason as his original go-to man to watching guys like Mark Clayton, Kelley Washington, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Donte Stallworth, and Lee Evans pass through town. Having to start over building new relationships with receivers can put a drag on the development of the offense.

While it may be putting an undue emphasis on a couple of postseason plays, I do think the chemistry and trust that Flacco has with Boldin is a valuable weapon, and not something that is as easily replaceable as the physical attributes Boldin has. Like that 3rd and short in the Super Bowl, where Joe checked out of a run call to throw a back-shoulder fade down the field into tight coverage instead. It took the better part of 2 years for Flacco to consistently trust that throw to Boldin. I'm not sure Flacco would be as aggressive if that was Tandon Doss out there instead.

Boldin has his weaknesses for sure. Nothing grinds my gears more than people talking up all these AMAZING catches that Boldin made in the playoffs to bail Flacco out in tight coverage without any of them acknowledging that every throw to Boldin has to be in tight coverage because he can't really generate separation anymore. But I do still value the relationship he has with Flacco, and at least for one more year, I think it may help protect our investment in Flacco to have him around.

For $7.5 million, he may very well not be worth it. And whether we keep him or not, the organization should be preparing for life without him because he'll be gone within a year at the latest. But if we were to go into next year with a core of Torrey, Boldin, Pitta, Dickson, Rice, and maybe even Jacoby, that would represent unprecedented continuity at the skill positions in the Flacco era, and the opportunity to throw to old friends instead of new, unfamiliar, hired hands could be an opportunity for this offense to take off in a new way.
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Last edited by BaltimoreTerp on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
BaltimoreTerp wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
What should we be doing/have done to clear cap space instead of cutting Boldin?


To me, Leach is a better option to cut than Boldin. Though it's a smallish sample size, under Caldwell he was only playing around 30% of our snaps, and that sort of niche production isn't worth a $4.3 million cap hit in my opinion. Leach is terrific, but I think a downgrade at an easily replaceable position that is trending downwards in importance within our offense is easier to swallow than replacing Boldin with Tandon Stonehands Doss.

I'm keeping the faith in Ozzie, and I think/hope that there's room here to negotiate an agreement with Boldin, but if we're talking about the easiest savings on this roster, I can't look further than Vonta Leach.


Why not cut both?

I guess I need to clarify my stance here. I utterly despise the receiver position. I think it's easily the most overrated position in football and, excluding fullback, quite possibly the least important on either side of the ball. I think there's a glaring lack of correlation between the quality of a wide receiver and overall offensive success that few people, if any, have been proactive enough to discover.

Now, if there's anything I despise more than the receiver position in general, it's possession receivers. I believe, once again in the context of overall offensive success, it's a complete dime-a-dozen position. Separation is the key to success in my mind, and that's going to come through a) having a good quarterback or b) having a deep threat. I see no reason to believe why a great QB needs a big name possession receivers when so many scrubs have come in and succeeded with elites throwing them the ball.

A few big playoff catches have, let's be real here, completely skewed Boldin's reputation. I don't think that would repeat itself over the course of the regular season or another playoff run, and considering the fact that a lack of separation (caused by scheme or otherwise) was what doomed this offense for the entirety of the Cam Cam era, I'd be more comfortable with cap space than I would be with Boldin, even at a slightly reduced price and even with no obvious replacement. I realize how unpopular that opinion is, but this isn't one of those "have I lost my mind" things like the way I speculated about letting Flacco go last month. I genuinely and wholeheartedly believe this, and it's backed by a philosophy I've embraced for quite a while now.


I disagree with this entire post. There are more ways of getting separation than just being a deep threat, ala Wes Welker. Boldin gets his separation using his physicality, not his speed. The lack of seperation you were seeing in Cam's offense was from his overly basic and generic route tree and formation scheme, not ability from the WR's.

And let's be real, there were a few times where Flacco just threw up balls and let his WR's make plays for him...and they did.
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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silus


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
BaltimoreTerp wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
What should we be doing/have done to clear cap space instead of cutting Boldin?


To me, Leach is a better option to cut than Boldin. Though it's a smallish sample size, under Caldwell he was only playing around 30% of our snaps, and that sort of niche production isn't worth a $4.3 million cap hit in my opinion. Leach is terrific, but I think a downgrade at an easily replaceable position that is trending downwards in importance within our offense is easier to swallow than replacing Boldin with Tandon Stonehands Doss.

I'm keeping the faith in Ozzie, and I think/hope that there's room here to negotiate an agreement with Boldin, but if we're talking about the easiest savings on this roster, I can't look further than Vonta Leach.


Why not cut both?

I guess I need to clarify my stance here. I utterly despise the receiver position. I think it's easily the most overrated position in football and, excluding fullback, quite possibly the least important on either side of the ball. I think there's a glaring lack of correlation between the quality of a wide receiver and overall offensive success that few people, if any, have been proactive enough to discover.

Now, if there's anything I despise more than the receiver position in general, it's possession receivers. I believe, once again in the context of overall offensive success, it's a complete dime-a-dozen position. Separation is the key to success in my mind, and that's going to come through a) having a good quarterback or b) having a deep threat. I see no reason to believe why a great QB needs a big name possession receivers when so many scrubs have come in and succeeded with elites throwing them the ball.

A few big playoff catches have, let's be real here, completely skewed Boldin's reputation. I don't think that would repeat itself over the course of the regular season or another playoff run, and considering the fact that a lack of separation (caused by scheme or otherwise) was what doomed this offense for the entirety of the Cam Cam era, I'd be more comfortable with cap space than I would be with Boldin, even at a slightly reduced price and even with no obvious replacement. I realize how unpopular that opinion is, but this isn't one of those "have I lost my mind" things like the way I speculated about letting Flacco go last month. I genuinely and wholeheartedly believe this, and it's backed by a philosophy I've embraced for quite a while now.

Can you give examples of scrubs playing so well with elite QBs? In my opinion, one only has to look at the Patriots 2006-2007 seasons to see the effect of a good receiving core. 24TDs playing with scrubs to 50TDs with Welker and Randy Moss.
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draftguru1234


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
BaltimoreTerp wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
What should we be doing/have done to clear cap space instead of cutting Boldin?


To me, Leach is a better option to cut than Boldin. Though it's a smallish sample size, under Caldwell he was only playing around 30% of our snaps, and that sort of niche production isn't worth a $4.3 million cap hit in my opinion. Leach is terrific, but I think a downgrade at an easily replaceable position that is trending downwards in importance within our offense is easier to swallow than replacing Boldin with Tandon Stonehands Doss.

I'm keeping the faith in Ozzie, and I think/hope that there's room here to negotiate an agreement with Boldin, but if we're talking about the easiest savings on this roster, I can't look further than Vonta Leach.


Why not cut both?

I guess I need to clarify my stance here. I utterly despise the receiver position. I think it's easily the most overrated position in football and, excluding fullback, quite possibly the least important on either side of the ball. I think there's a glaring lack of correlation between the quality of a wide receiver and overall offensive success that few people, if any, have been proactive enough to discover.

Now, if there's anything I despise more than the receiver position in general, it's possession receivers. I believe, once again in the context of overall offensive success, it's a complete dime-a-dozen position. Separation is the key to success in my mind, and that's going to come through a) having a good quarterback or b) having a deep threat. I see no reason to believe why a great QB needs a big name possession receivers when so many scrubs have come in and succeeded with elites throwing them the ball.

A few big playoff catches have, let's be real here, completely skewed Boldin's reputation. I don't think that would repeat itself over the course of the regular season or another playoff run, and considering the fact that a lack of separation (caused by scheme or otherwise) was what doomed this offense for the entirety of the Cam Cam era, I'd be more comfortable with cap space than I would be with Boldin, even at a slightly reduced price and even with no obvious replacement. I realize how unpopular that opinion is, but this isn't one of those "have I lost my mind" things like the way I speculated about letting Flacco go last month. I genuinely and wholeheartedly believe this, and it's backed by a philosophy I've embraced for quite a while now.

Just no. Lets look at the elite QB's.

Aaron Rodgers has an excellent group of WR's, Brees has arguably the best TE in the NFL, along with a great WR, Manning has always had elite WR's (2 for the bulk of his career), Brady has been a different QB ever since he got better WR's/TE's.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draftguru1234 wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
BaltimoreTerp wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
What should we be doing/have done to clear cap space instead of cutting Boldin?


To me, Leach is a better option to cut than Boldin. Though it's a smallish sample size, under Caldwell he was only playing around 30% of our snaps, and that sort of niche production isn't worth a $4.3 million cap hit in my opinion. Leach is terrific, but I think a downgrade at an easily replaceable position that is trending downwards in importance within our offense is easier to swallow than replacing Boldin with Tandon Stonehands Doss.

I'm keeping the faith in Ozzie, and I think/hope that there's room here to negotiate an agreement with Boldin, but if we're talking about the easiest savings on this roster, I can't look further than Vonta Leach.


Why not cut both?

I guess I need to clarify my stance here. I utterly despise the receiver position. I think it's easily the most overrated position in football and, excluding fullback, quite possibly the least important on either side of the ball. I think there's a glaring lack of correlation between the quality of a wide receiver and overall offensive success that few people, if any, have been proactive enough to discover.

Now, if there's anything I despise more than the receiver position in general, it's possession receivers. I believe, once again in the context of overall offensive success, it's a complete dime-a-dozen position. Separation is the key to success in my mind, and that's going to come through a) having a good quarterback or b) having a deep threat. I see no reason to believe why a great QB needs a big name possession receivers when so many scrubs have come in and succeeded with elites throwing them the ball.

A few big playoff catches have, let's be real here, completely skewed Boldin's reputation. I don't think that would repeat itself over the course of the regular season or another playoff run, and considering the fact that a lack of separation (caused by scheme or otherwise) was what doomed this offense for the entirety of the Cam Cam era, I'd be more comfortable with cap space than I would be with Boldin, even at a slightly reduced price and even with no obvious replacement. I realize how unpopular that opinion is, but this isn't one of those "have I lost my mind" things like the way I speculated about letting Flacco go last month. I genuinely and wholeheartedly believe this, and it's backed by a philosophy I've embraced for quite a while now.

Just no. Lets look at the elite QB's.

Aaron Rodgers has an excellent group of WR's, Brees has arguably the best TE in the NFL, along with a great WR, Manning has always had elite WR's (2 for the bulk of his career), Brady has been a different QB ever since he got better WR's/TE's.


And let's also not forget Joe Flacco just had his best postseason when his WR's played their best games and we stopped running the ball primarily.
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

And let's also not forget Joe Flacco just had his best postseason when his WR's played their best games and we stopped running the ball primarily.


Or could it be that our WRs played their best games and we stopped running the ball primarlity because Joe Flacco was having his best post-season?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draftguru1234 wrote:
Aaron Rodgers has an excellent group of WR's, Brees has arguably the best TE in the NFL, along with a great WR, Manning has always had elite WR's (2 for the bulk of his career), Brady has been a different QB ever since he got better WR's/TE's.


Those groups of WRs are perceived the way they are because of their QBs, it's that simple. Every Packers receiver has looked great with Rodgers throwing them the ball. The two Saints players you mention came out of nowhere and just happened to look great with Brees throwing them the ball, as well as every other obscure receiver in that offense. Brady has shuffled through so many supporting casts in his career and dominated with all of them, even after Moss was long gone. Manning has neither of those receivers now and still put up an MVP type season at 36, and his new receivers are magically considered stars now as well.

Do you really think it's a coincidence that the teams who are always listed as having the best receiving corps all happen to have quarterbacks who looked like Hall of Famers long before those receiving corps came to be? I guarantee you the next obscure guy the Saints or Broncos throw into the lineup is going to look great, and the reason for that will start and end with the quarterback.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

And let's also not forget Joe Flacco just had his best postseason when his WR's played their best games and we stopped running the ball primarily.


Or could it be that our WRs played their best games and we stopped running the ball primarlity because Joe Flacco was having his best post-season?


Probably a combination of both. Flacco bailed his WR's out with some great throws, but his WR's also bailed him out a few times when he just lobbed it up there.
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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