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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Bloodlustt wrote:
I fully expect us to overpay for the most average safety in FA.


Graves is gone that stage of this franchise is over


Saying that completely ignores the huge roles Steve Keim and Jason Licht had in the personel decision making here over the past 4-6 years (Bar the time Licht spent in NE)

I HATE the fact that we are, as a team that is picking in the top ten and in need of a "rebuild", looking to build via Free Agency. It is the opposite of every successful team ever.
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LuckyNumber11


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Bloodlustt wrote:
I fully expect us to overpay for the most average safety in FA.


Graves is gone that stage of this franchise is over


Saying that completely ignores the huge roles Steve Keim and Jason Licht had in the personel decision making here over the past 4-6 years (Bar the time Licht spent in NE)

I HATE the fact that we are, as a team that is picking in the top ten and in need of a "rebuild", looking to build via Free Agency. It is the opposite of every successful team ever.


I should have said Graves and Whiz. I recognize that they had roles but Whiz and Graves were the head of the decisions. At least that has been my view of it
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
I should have said Graves and Whiz. I recognize that they had roles but Whiz and Graves were the head of the decisions. At least that has been my view of it


Despite the insistence of the likes of Michael Bidwill that this team has been and will continue to make "Cardinal Decisions"?

I like Keim, I like Licht, but we cannot ignore the fact that those two were key voices on all personnel decisions last season, key voices that helped to bring in Adam Snyder as a starting guard.

In the case of Keim a key voice that helped to give that big contract to Daryn Colledge and that big contract to Stewart Bradley.

We cannot ignore their roles here in the past, and given our reported large presence in free agency I cannot help but think the team is making the huge mistake of continuing of going down that road.

Any investment in freeagency this season only hurts our cap down the road and in the shorter end of the long term hinders our ability to resign the likes of Patrick Peterson, Andre Roberts, Michael Floyd without removing other players from the roster.

I hope this new cap guy who has been bought in knows what he is going, I hope he knows how to structure contracts to make sure money is coming off the books (Retirements, Contract Expirations) at the same time we need to add money to the book (Contract Extensions)

The team seems to be trying to build through free agency, and that is very scary, because you do not create long term success through free agency. It does not happen.

And beleive me, I hate being the voice of pessimism, I want this team to succeed every bit as much as anyone else who identifies themselves as a Cardinals fan, but all I see right now is the team repeating the same mistakes they have made in the past and expecting different results.

Teams don't let players you can build around hit free agency, so all we end up doing is paying a premium price for a standard product. Then it screws with us financially down the road when we have to cut them.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Bloodlustt wrote:
I fully expect us to overpay for the most average safety in FA.


Graves is gone that stage of this franchise is over


Saying that completely ignores the huge roles Steve Keim and Jason Licht had in the personel decision making here over the past 4-6 years (Bar the time Licht spent in NE)

I HATE the fact that we are, as a team that is picking in the top ten and in need of a "rebuild", looking to build via Free Agency. It is the opposite of every successful team ever.


Not a big deal IMO. Signing a FA that's a better player than your own FA is fine by me.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Bloodlustt wrote:
I fully expect us to overpay for the most average safety in FA.


Graves is gone that stage of this franchise is over


Saying that completely ignores the huge roles Steve Keim and Jason Licht had in the personel decision making here over the past 4-6 years (Bar the time Licht spent in NE)

I HATE the fact that we are, as a team that is picking in the top ten and in need of a "rebuild", looking to build via Free Agency. It is the opposite of every successful team ever.


Not a big deal IMO. Signing a FA that's a better player than your own FA is fine by me.


Yeah but when you end up paying top 5 CB money for a guy struggling to be among the top 30 odd in the league it kills you. Value for money. Value for cap dollars is one of the most important things in building an NFL team and right now we look like we are going to be spending top dollar on average players. And that is pointless it hurts you trying to retain your own elite players and all it does is create issues.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
Not a big deal IMO. Signing a FA that's a better player than your own FA is fine by me.


Also I would say Smith is marginally better than Toler at best. What I saw from Toler last year was very, very impressive for a guy coming off a knee injury. Losing him now, right when own investment in his is about to pay off is disingenuous, backwards and the opposite of what someone trying to build a successful NFL franchise should be doing.
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apollo14000


Joined: 07 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Bloodlustt wrote:
I fully expect us to overpay for the most average safety in FA.


Graves is gone that stage of this franchise is over


Saying that completely ignores the huge roles Steve Keim and Jason Licht had in the personel decision making here over the past 4-6 years (Bar the time Licht spent in NE)

I HATE the fact that we are, as a team that is picking in the top ten and in need of a "rebuild", looking to build via Free Agency. It is the opposite of every successful team ever.


Not a big deal IMO. Signing a FA that's a better player than your own FA is fine by me.


As long as he's young and already established, then I'm fine with it. Sean Smith is the type of player you go after in FA. Goldson? eh he'll be 30 already in less than 2 years. Bush? We can find a more practical option through the draft and he'll also be 30 in 2 years.

Snyder and Colledge are both already 31. We keep signing guys that are on the verge of leaving their prime, not entering it. Faneca, Porter, Heap, the list goes on and on. Stewart Bradley is young but he had 1 good year, then 2 injury riddled seasons, and we signed him to a big contract. That deal was a backfire waiting to happen

Also, I'm not going to attribute a lot of those signings to Keim just because he was there. Graves and Whiz were the head decision makers. More importantly, GRAVES was the money guy not Keim. Keim had nothing to do with the contracts we gave those players. He's the GM now and he has his own personal contract guy.
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LuckyNumber11


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said this was just my perception when we fired the two of them. You know more than me so I believe you, and I just thought this was how it all went down that Graves and Whiz got power crazy and lost and then got fired
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Like I said this was just my perception when we fired the two of them. You know more than me so I believe you, and I just thought this was how it all went down that Graves and Whiz got power crazy and lost and then got fired


I don't know any more than most fans, but if a team hires people in the positions that Keim and Licht have held here in the past and paid them the money they were paid you better beleive they were heavily involved in all player personnel decisions.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

apollo14000 wrote:
As long as he's young and already established, then I'm fine with it. Sean Smith is the type of player you go after in FA. Goldson? eh he'll be 30 already in less than 2 years. Bush? We can find a more practical option through the draft and he'll also be 30 in 2 years.

Snyder and Colledge are both already 31. We keep signing guys that are on the verge of leaving their prime, not entering it. Faneca, Porter, Heap, the list goes on and on. Stewart Bradley is young but he had 1 good year, then 2 injury riddled seasons, and we signed him to a big contract. That deal was a backfire waiting to happen

Also, I'm not going to attribute a lot of those signings to Keim just because he was there. Graves and Whiz were the head decision makers. More importantly, GRAVES was the money guy not Keim. Keim had nothing to do with the contracts we gave those players. He's the GM now and he has his own personal contract guy.


1 - Why not just stick with Greg Toler? He is 18 months older, but he is also going to cost a lot less for about the same level of play. Unless they have exhausted all options with Toler I don't see the point. There is a reason Miami made no effort to sign Smith, they don't think he is worth the #1 money that he is going to demand.

2 - Good point. They guys were seem to be linked with are younger, we as a team at this stage of our development and this stage of our cap management should not be looking to be big players in free agency. Sign one under the radar guy to a small deal to play good ball. Chase after multiple average players for big money. Big no-no.

If you are going to absolve Keim and Licht of any blame in these decision making processes that is your prerogative, but they were involved. We don't know whether Keim said he hated Snyder but Whis and Graves loved him. But we do know Keim was involved.

3 - Graves was the money guy. But that does not stop us from giving out bad contracts going forwards. Graves also gave out some great contracts (Daryl Washington anybody).

I just hate that it looks to me like we have a team that is trying to build via free agency to compete now in a division that, in all probability, we have zero chance of breaking into the top two in, and completely disregarding the future of the team.

It scares me. It looks like we are going to fall into a trap of perennial mediocrity.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Bloodlustt wrote:
I fully expect us to overpay for the most average safety in FA.


Graves is gone that stage of this franchise is over


Saying that completely ignores the huge roles Steve Keim and Jason Licht had in the personel decision making here over the past 4-6 years (Bar the time Licht spent in NE)

I HATE the fact that we are, as a team that is picking in the top ten and in need of a "rebuild", looking to build via Free Agency. It is the opposite of every successful team ever.


Not a big deal IMO. Signing a FA that's a better player than your own FA is fine by me.


Yeah but when you end up paying top 5 CB money for a guy struggling to be among the top 30 odd in the league it kills you. Value for money. Value for cap dollars is one of the most important things in building an NFL team and right now we look like we are going to be spending top dollar on average players. And that is pointless it hurts you trying to retain your own elite players and all it does is create issues.


Agree in the sense that living in FA like the Redskins or Raiders can kill your franchise but over-paying a guy in his prime in a position of need can take your team. The Giants are seen as a 5* ran franchise and they made Antrell Rolle the highest paid Safety in NFL history.
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iRobot


Joined: 17 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Bloodlustt wrote:
I fully expect us to overpay for the most average safety in FA.


Graves is gone that stage of this franchise is over


Saying that completely ignores the huge roles Steve Keim and Jason Licht had in the personel decision making here over the past 4-6 years (Bar the time Licht spent in NE)

I HATE the fact that we are, as a team that is picking in the top ten and in need of a "rebuild", looking to build via Free Agency. It is the opposite of every successful team ever.


Not a big deal IMO. Signing a FA that's a better player than your own FA is fine by me.


Yeah but when you end up paying top 5 CB money for a guy struggling to be among the top 30 odd in the league it kills you. Value for money. Value for cap dollars is one of the most important things in building an NFL team and right now we look like we are going to be spending top dollar on average players. And that is pointless it hurts you trying to retain your own elite players and all it does is create issues.


Agree in the sense that living in FA like the Redskins or Raiders can kill your franchise but over-paying a guy in his prime in a position of need can take your team. The Giants are seen as a 5* ran franchise and they made Antrell Rolle the highest paid Safety in NFL history.


Problem to me with Sean Smith is that he has sometimes been abused some games, notably, against the Seahawks recently.

I'd rather see Toler back for less than what Sean Smith wants.
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apollo14000


Joined: 07 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
apollo14000 wrote:
As long as he's young and already established, then I'm fine with it. Sean Smith is the type of player you go after in FA. Goldson? eh he'll be 30 already in less than 2 years. Bush? We can find a more practical option through the draft and he'll also be 30 in 2 years.

Snyder and Colledge are both already 31. We keep signing guys that are on the verge of leaving their prime, not entering it. Faneca, Porter, Heap, the list goes on and on. Stewart Bradley is young but he had 1 good year, then 2 injury riddled seasons, and we signed him to a big contract. That deal was a backfire waiting to happen

Also, I'm not going to attribute a lot of those signings to Keim just because he was there. Graves and Whiz were the head decision makers. More importantly, GRAVES was the money guy not Keim. Keim had nothing to do with the contracts we gave those players. He's the GM now and he has his own personal contract guy.


If you are going to absolve Keim and Licht of any blame in these decision making processes that is your prerogative, but they were involved. We don't know whether Keim said he hated Snyder but Whis and Graves loved him. But we do know Keim was involved.

3 - Graves was the money guy. But that does not stop us from giving out bad contracts going forwards. Graves also gave out some great contracts (Daryl Washington anybody).


Thanks for making my point that we don't know anything for certain. Keim and Licht were "involved." That's not a clear enough reason to hold them responsible for those bad signings. For all we know they didn't want them here.

As for Graves, I was talking about his free agent acquisitions only. He was just terrible at it. Yet we were pretty good at drafting, which is something Keim was more heavily "involved" in.
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iRobot


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naive if I said this was the reason we're pursuing Bush BUT, I thought it was interesting to see..

Last season, Bush vs various teams..

vs STL - 12 attempts, 17 yards - 5 receptions, 44 yards (1.4 ypc, 8.8 ypc)
vs IND - 10 attempts, 41 yards - 2 receptions, 25 yards (4.1 ypc, 12.5 ypc)
vs TEN - 4 attempts, 21 yards - 1 reception, 8 yards (5.3 ypc, 8 ypc)
vs SEA - 14 attempts, 87 yards - 1 reception, -5 yards (6.2 ypc, -5 ypc)
vs SF - 14 attempts, 65 yards - 5 receptions, 38 yards (4.6 ypc, 7.6 ypc)
vs JAX - 21 attempts, 104 yards - 0 receptions (5.0 ypc)

Important to note, Bush was battling a knee injury after week 3 against NYJ.

Before the knee injury, he was averaging 5.8 yards per carry. After the injury, he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. (I call after the injury when he stopped showing up on the injury report, which was after week 7, their bye week.)

3 of those teams up above are obvious NFC West rivals and Bush was able to be effective against them whether it was running the ball or catching out of the backfield.

Just interesting to see really.. not saying it's a must that we sign him.
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Boise&cards Fan


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the FA being linked will cost way to much for what they do. Better off building from the draft.
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