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Broncos will ask Dumerville to restructure.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^

Since you have no idea what the Broncos cap situation is like, I'll lay it out for you. We got an almost $5M cap hit because we had to cut him. However, if he had stayed, the hit for this, and future seasons wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

In fact, the initial deal we offered, and he agreed to was 3/30. I thought that was still high but it was cash heavy.

Then everything happened.

Now we are stuck with a 5M cap hit. We could, in no way have had the ability to offer him the length of contract that you did, and in terms of guaranteed cash he's getting, Denver was offering 8M a year. So I'm really not wrong in what I'm saying. There were two situations at play here- Denver's cap before the fiasco, and the cap after.

FWIW, I said I thought he'd do better in Baltimore because he doesn't need to play DE.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcarey20 wrote:
Say what you'd like, but what's actually "hilarious" (the exact word you used to describe the Ravens) is that Doom's terms are largely similar to what you previously stated you would be happy with. However now that said deal is in place with the Ravens, it's laughably bad. THAT is whats hilarious.

Just wanted to make note of that. I'm going to go out on a limb and trust Ozzie Newsome here.

I wouldn't get too riled up about all of this. The Broncos fanbase is littered with Dumervil haters. It was also littered with Tebow fanboys and McDaniels apologists and we see how that worked out.

You should trust Ozzie Newsome. He is, along with Ted Thompson in Green Bay, Jerry Reese in New York and the Rooneys/Kevin Colbert in Pittsburgh, the best football czar in the league. John Elway has done a fine job here as well but doesn't have the track record or Super Bowl rings the others do (yet).

Bottom line is this; the contract Baltimore offered Dumervil was fair. Making a snap judgement based solely on the raw numbers if foolish. The truth is this is fair value for a player of Dumervil's caliber.

From Dumervil's perspective I don't blame him for leaving. The Ravens are a stellar franchise. They have excellent ownership, a top-notch GM, an outstanding coaching staff, a roster filled with talent and are a team that expects to contend for the Lombardi year in and year out. Same goes for the Broncos so leaving here for Baltimore is not a step down for Dumervil. He's going to a team that employs a scheme in which he excelled, has a LBs coach he knows and a pass rusher on the other side of him who is as feared as any in the league when he's healthy. There is no reason for Dumervil to think he cannot be as successful or does not have as good (or better) a chance at winning a ring in Baltimore as he would have in Denver. It's not like he left the Broncos for the Browns, Jets or Jaguars, he left for the Ravens. Good career move, or at worst a lateral one, for Elvis.

From the Broncos perspective, this is a problem. An important player in his prime at a critical position has left for a conference rival. Elway & Co., they did what they could - they offered a fair contract to the player but the player opted to go elsewhere. Should they have offered more? No. But there is no arguing that the Broncos are worse off as a football team now than they were this morning.

There are no free agents, draft prospects or a combination thereof that will replace Dumervil, both on the field and in the lockerroom. The Broncos franchise, their media sycophants and blind homers in the fanbase will spin Robert Ayers/Dwight Freeney + DeMonte Moore/Alex Okafor/Datone Jones/whoever is an adequate, if not improved, replacement relative to Dumervil. All of those who we will hear in the days and weeks ahead apologizing for and/or applauding this move have one thing in common, they are wrong.

Does this ruin Denver's chances to compete for the Super Bowl next year? No. But it does make it more difficult.
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broncosfan07


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I wonder if people actually watch the same game I am Doom makes some nice plays but the majority of the time he was the worst player on the defense.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AAA, I respect your opinion, but there are certainly a bunch of one-dimensional pass rushers in the NFL Draft.

Elvis got most of his sacks at the end of the game. He was a decent player, but he had one on one coverage often and rarely capitalized, and he disappeared for long stretches during games.

John Abraham + a rookie would easily match that output, don't be silly.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further, another part of me wonders if Elvis weren't drafted by Mike Shanahan how people would feel about him.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Further, another part of me wonders if Elvis weren't drafted by Mike Shanahan how people would feel about him.

Ding Ding Ding.

Shanny apologists have come out to defend Dumervil's overrated play. See above.
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dcarey20


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
dcarey20 wrote:
Say what you'd like, but what's actually "hilarious" (the exact word you used to describe the Ravens) is that Doom's terms are largely similar to what you previously stated you would be happy with. However now that said deal is in place with the Ravens, it's laughably bad. THAT is whats hilarious.

Just wanted to make note of that. I'm going to go out on a limb and trust Ozzie Newsome here.

I wouldn't get too riled up about all of this. The Broncos fanbase is littered with Dumervil haters. It was also littered with Tebow fanboys and McDaniels apologists and we see how that worked out.

You should trust Ozzie Newsome. He is, along with Ted Thompson in Green Bay, Jerry Reese in New York and the Rooneys/Kevin Colbert in Pittsburgh, the best football czar in the league. John Elway has done a fine job here as well but doesn't have the track record or Super Bowl rings the others do (yet).

Bottom line is this; the contract Baltimore offered Dumervil was fair. Making a snap judgement based solely on the raw numbers if foolish. The truth is this is fair value for a player of Dumervil's caliber.

From Dumervil's perspective I don't blame him for leaving. The Ravens are a stellar franchise. They have excellent ownership, a top-notch GM, an outstanding coaching staff, a roster filled with talent and are a team that expects to contend for the Lombardi year in and year out. Same goes for the Broncos so leaving here for Baltimore is not a step down for Dumervil. He's going to a team that employs a scheme in which he excelled, has a LBs coach he knows and a pass rusher on the other side of him who is as feared as any in the league when he's healthy. There is no reason for Dumervil to think he cannot be as successful or does not have as good (or better) a chance at winning a ring in Baltimore as he would have in Denver. It's not like he left the Broncos for the Browns, Jets or Jaguars, he left for the Ravens. Good career move, or at worst a lateral one, for Elvis.

From the Broncos perspective, this is a problem. An important player in his prime at a critical position has left for a conference rival. Elway & Co., they did what they could - they offered a fair contract to the player but the player opted to go elsewhere. Should they have offered more? No. But there is no arguing that the Broncos are worse off as a football team now than they were this morning.

There are no free agents, draft prospects or a combination thereof that will replace Dumervil, both on the field and in the lockerroom. The Broncos franchise, their media sycophants and blind homers in the fanbase will spin Robert Ayers/Dwight Freeney + DeMonte Moore/Alex Okafor/Datone Jones/whoever is an adequate, if not improved, replacement relative to Dumervil. All of those who we will hear in the days and weeks ahead apologizing for and/or applauding this move have one thing in common, they are wrong.

Does this ruin Denver's chances to compete for the Super Bowl next year? No. But it does make it more difficult.


I hear ya. I can understand Denver fans being fine with his departure, or vice versa.

My main point was that regardless of the cap situation or whatever else one wants to bring up, it's a bit ridiculous for someone to say that they'd be happy if Dumervil was brought back for a certain price,and then completely annihilating another franchise for paying him basically that exact price (particularly when the new franchise is a far better fit for that player's attributes).

There are obviously going to be differing perspectives from the team gaining the player and the team losing said player. But from the Ravens perspective, we are gaining a player who is likely a double digit sack guy, we are putting him in a scheme which is tailor made for his skillset, and we're placing him around personnel who will (to an extent) mask his weaknesses; Spears/Ngata/Canty on the line and Upshaw as a complement in edge-setting situations.

From a Baltimore standpoint, I personally think this pickup has been met with the reaction that is has in part because of the offseason the Ravens have had. After a full offseason of cleaning house and getting rid of productive players whom we felt cost too much, it seems somewhat out of left field to nab a player like Dumervil for that price. But what that says to me is that Ozzie and the FO must feel very strongly about what Dumervil can offer; and that makes me confident in this signing.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
AAA, I respect your opinion, but there are certainly a bunch of one-dimensional pass rushers in the NFL Draft.

Elvis got most of his sacks at the end of the game. He was a decent player, but he had one on one coverage often and rarely capitalized, and he disappeared for long stretches during games.

John Abraham + a rookie would easily match that output, don't be silly.

Abraham, of the options available, would be my top choice. But it appears that Elway & Co have their sights set on Freeney. Why? I don't know. He played with Peyton and carries his endorsement but I say so what, Freeney cannot play. Abraham is better but that's not saying much.

Everyone wants to blast Dumervil for his short-comings as a run defender, which are over-blown IMO, but with Doom the Broncos finished T-1 in the league in sacks and 3rd in run defense. Is upgrading our run defense at the expense of sacks going to make us better?

In the end I can understand, even I don't agree with, those who think that Freeney+rookie represent a lateral move from Dumervil. But it's asinine for anyone to act as though we're better off without Dumervil than with him.

One thing is certain, I will keep a close eye both on what Doom does in Baltimore and what we do here without him. It'll be an interesting study.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcarey20 wrote:
From a Baltimore standpoint, I personally think this pickup has been met with the reaction that is has in part because of the offseason the Ravens have had. After a full offseason of cleaning house and getting rid of productive players whom we felt cost too much, it seems somewhat out of left field to nab a player like Dumervil for that price. But what that says to me is that Ozzie and the FO must feel very strongly about what Dumervil can offer; and that makes me confident in this signing.

The Ravens are being smart. They're paying Dumervil fair value to play a key position for them. Suggs and Dumervil is a scary pass rush combination.

They're getting a better player for a lower price than it would have cost to keep one-season wonder Paul Kruger.

They didn't want to overpay for Reed or Boldin so they didn't. That makes sense too since both are old, declining, past their prime and want to get paid for their name. It hurts to lose Ellerbe and Pollard but Newsome is good enough to replace them without Baltimore losing much.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
AAA, I respect your opinion, but there are certainly a bunch of one-dimensional pass rushers in the NFL Draft.

Elvis got most of his sacks at the end of the game. He was a decent player, but he had one on one coverage often and rarely capitalized, and he disappeared for long stretches during games.

John Abraham + a rookie would easily match that output, don't be silly.

Abraham, of the options available, would be my top choice. But it appears that Elway & Co have their sights set on Freeney. Why? I don't know. He played with Peyton and carries his endorsement but I say so what, Freeney cannot play. Abraham is better but that's not saying much.

Everyone wants to blast Dumervil for his short-comings as a run defender, which are over-blown IMO, but with Doom the Broncos finished T-1 in the league in sacks and 3rd in run defense. Is upgrading our run defense at the expense of sacks going to make us better?

In the end I can understand, even I don't agree with, those who think that Freeney+rookie represent a lateral move from Dumervil. But it's asinine for anyone to act as though we're better off without Dumervil than with him.

One thing is certain, I will keep a close eye both on what Doom does in Baltimore and what we do here without him. It'll be an interesting study.


It's also gonna be difficult to make that comparison because he's moving to a 3-4 which he's better suited for and will have a completely separate set of responsibilities.

Elvis got sacks, but he also managed to accumulate most of his in mop up duty, which, while helpful, doesn't show how inconsistent he was during the course of entire game stretches. A veteran and a rookie can certainly provide more than he can.
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Cutler06


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anybody interested to see what Jeremy Beal is gonna look like this year ?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cutler06 wrote:
Anybody interested to see what Jeremy Beal is gonna look like this year ?

Not really no. If Beal was going to do anything of consequence in the NFL he would have shown it already. He's buried on the PS for a reason. He can be, at best, a below-average rotational player in the NFL.

The Broncos now have no choice but to overpay for a veteran DE who's well on the downside of his career (Freeney, Abraham, et. al.) and spend their first round draft pick on a DE. We're now pigeonholed into now having to draft based on need and not on BPA.

And the worst thing about all of this is that none of it is really the Broncos' fault. They, wisely, weren't going to pay Doom $12m. They offered him a fair contract and his agent screwed up the fax. They then offered him another fair contract and, after weighing the options, he decided sign with another team. This is really just an awful turn of events for the Broncos.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not an awful turn of events at all. If we can get a younger player who contributes better all around plus Abraham that's better than Doom IMO.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Cutler06 wrote:
Anybody interested to see what Jeremy Beal is gonna look like this year ?

Not really no. If Beal was going to do anything of consequence in the NFL he would have shown it already. He's buried on the PS for a reason. He can be, at best, a below-average rotational player in the NFL.

The Broncos now have no choice but to overpay for a veteran DE who's well on the downside of his career (Freeney, Abraham, et. al.) and spend their first round draft pick on a DE. We're now pigeonholed into now having to draft based on need and not on BPA.

.


AAA, I'm really not trying to pick on you man, but posts like this and your previous drive me nuts.

How bout this quote:
Quote:
All of those who we will hear in the days and weeks ahead apologizing for and/or applauding this move have one thing in common, they are wrong.


Can't you at least occasionally say IMO?

You post your opinion as indisputable fact. I don't get it.

Beal was a great DE at oklahoma and was placed on IR last August.

What do you mean they have no choice? Of course they do. Ayers, jackson, Beal as a darkhorse, yet you say we have no choice but to draft a DE in the 1st.

Listen, we all respect your opinion, but when it's posted as fact it gets old in a hurry. We've got great, knowledgeable posters here that disagree with both of us a lot. I respect that and honor those opinions.

So, thats the end of my rant. As to the topic at hand, I'd like to see us sign Abraham as a situational PR guy. Then let Ayers/Jackson/Beal fight it out for the starting spot. (Abraham might not make the roster) Personally I don't think we lose much with Doom gone.

The trio are pretty close to physical clones, 6'3" to 6'5" and around 275. jacksons the quickest of the 3 and could surprise. Ayers is in a contract year and Beal is one more and done. All 3 have a lot to fight for.

I'd love to see more size in front of WW, a guy that can also get after the QB.

Anyway, those are my opinions, not fact.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Further, another part of me wonders if Elvis weren't drafted by Mike Shanahan how people would feel about him.


Drafting Dumervil where we did was a steal. Anyone who defends Dumervil because of Shanahan should bear in mind that Mike Shanahan isn't the one responsible for giving Dumervil a gigantic contract, that blame lies with Josh McDaniels.
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