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Winder23


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 4268
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
Winder23 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
Carradine doesn't do anything for me. Coming off ACL Tear, most of his experience is JUCO, 1 year starting D-1.

Alex Okafor is Robert Ayers but 10 pounds lighter. Anyone expecting him to come in and be a sack guy will be sorely disappointed.


Bjoern Werner, Damontre Moore, or bust in the first round.
Why does eveybody want to compare DE's to Robert Ayers? Okafor is a far more polished player in college than Ayers ever was. Okafor can also rush the passer far more effectively. Not saying he will be a great pass rusher, but surely he will come up with more than 6.5 sacks in his first four seasons. I expect Okafor to make a fine LE who can play the run well and get you 6-8 sacks a year.
That's probably what his ceiling is and it's not what we're looking for. Von Miller and Derek Wolfe get those snaps at LE.


Alex Okafor is a lot like Ayers. Just with better production. Datone Jones is nothing like Ayers and I don't know why people made that comparison.
No he isn't exactly what the Broncos are looking for. I just see a better player than Ayers is all.
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JerseysFinest27


Joined: 07 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
Winder23 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
Carradine doesn't do anything for me. Coming off ACL Tear, most of his experience is JUCO, 1 year starting D-1.

Alex Okafor is Robert Ayers but 10 pounds lighter. Anyone expecting him to come in and be a sack guy will be sorely disappointed.


Bjoern Werner, Damontre Moore, or bust in the first round.
Why does eveybody want to compare DE's to Robert Ayers? Okafor is a far more polished player in college than Ayers ever was. Okafor can also rush the passer far more effectively. Not saying he will be a great pass rusher, but surely he will come up with more than 6.5 sacks in his first four seasons. I expect Okafor to make a fine LE who can play the run well and get you 6-8 sacks a year.
That's probably what his ceiling is and it's not what we're looking for. Von Miller and Derek Wolfe get those snaps at LE.


Alex Okafor is a lot like Ayers. Just with better production. Datone Jones is nothing like Ayers and I don't know why people made that comparison.


Agreed once again. Datone Jones is, in some ways, more like Derek Wolfe. Not the best comparison, but he's a tweener DE/DT. A poor man's Justin Tuck?

I think Jones can be just as good as Tuck if not better. Tuck is vastly overrated in the media. He played on a team with elite DE's and a defensive system that catered to pass rushers. Jones can be much better than Tuck, in my opinion.

That said, I dont think highly of Okafor. I see a good (not great) athlete with good (not great) pass rush moves. He needs to be one of those high effort guys to succeed in this league. I dont see that on film either.

Carradine had ONE very good season. Can he repeat it? I dont know. Thats the risk you take. Most of his sacks came in pairs too. So what about the other games? Did he not try or was the OL giving him a hard time? I like Carradine but there are concerns.

My top DE is still Margus Hunt. I see TONS of potential. Hes not played football long so theres not much wear and tear. Playing on this team will allow him to develop into a top end pass rusher. He'd get great coaching too. When he got 1-on-1's in college, he was pretty tough to beat. On this defense he'd see a lot of those.
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The Helicopter


Joined: 31 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
...we're guaranteed a good player at DT, CB, S, or DE.


I agree, but I'm questioning the value of a defensive player at #28, versus in the 40's or 50's for example...because there seems to be zero consensus here. Just an observation, not a recommendation.

To play devils advocate, our offense didn't exactly perform well versus Baltimore. What about adding Zach Ertz?
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Helicopter wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
...we're guaranteed a good player at DT, CB, S, or DE.


I agree, but I'm questioning the value of a defensive player at #28, versus in the 40's or 50's for example...because there seems to be zero consensus here. Just an observation, not a recommendation.

To play devils advocate, our offense didn't exactly perform well versus Baltimore. What about adding Zach Ertz?


Well, the value is tough to determine just because there's a glut of players that are the same, but IMO if you have a guy you like at 28, take him there, because there's no guarantees given how polarizing the draft is this year.

I personally am not a fan of a TE in this draft and truthfully I don't see them taking one. We have two good starters, Virgil Green (a good blocker) and the staff's project in Julius Thomas. Maybe in the later rounds we take someone.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
The Helicopter wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
...we're guaranteed a good player at DT, CB, S, or DE.


I agree, but I'm questioning the value of a defensive player at #28, versus in the 40's or 50's for example...because there seems to be zero consensus here. Just an observation, not a recommendation.

To play devils advocate, our offense didn't exactly perform well versus Baltimore. What about adding Zach Ertz?


Well, the value is tough to determine just because there's a glut of players that are the same, but IMO if you have a guy you like at 28, take him there, because there's no guarantees given how polarizing the draft is this year.

I personally am not a fan of a TE in this draft and truthfully I don't see them taking one. We have two good starters, Virgil Green (a good blocker) and the staff's project in Julius Thomas. Maybe in the later rounds we take someone.

Tyler Eifert would be an impact player right away. Hes got just as much catching abilities as some of the better WR's in this draft.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
The Helicopter wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
...we're guaranteed a good player at DT, CB, S, or DE.


I agree, but I'm questioning the value of a defensive player at #28, versus in the 40's or 50's for example...because there seems to be zero consensus here. Just an observation, not a recommendation.

To play devils advocate, our offense didn't exactly perform well versus Baltimore. What about adding Zach Ertz?


Well, the value is tough to determine just because there's a glut of players that are the same, but IMO if you have a guy you like at 28, take him there, because there's no guarantees given how polarizing the draft is this year.

I personally am not a fan of a TE in this draft and truthfully I don't see them taking one. We have two good starters, Virgil Green (a good blocker) and the staff's project in Julius Thomas. Maybe in the later rounds we take someone.

Tyler Eifert would be an impact player right away. Hes got just as much catching abilities as some of the better WR's in this draft.


Maybe, but I think Elway likes our TE situation. Blowing a pick on that position right now while ignoring defense would be a bad idea, IMO.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
The Helicopter wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
...we're guaranteed a good player at DT, CB, S, or DE.


I agree, but I'm questioning the value of a defensive player at #28, versus in the 40's or 50's for example...because there seems to be zero consensus here. Just an observation, not a recommendation.

To play devils advocate, our offense didn't exactly perform well versus Baltimore. What about adding Zach Ertz?


Well, the value is tough to determine just because there's a glut of players that are the same, but IMO if you have a guy you like at 28, take him there, because there's no guarantees given how polarizing the draft is this year.

I personally am not a fan of a TE in this draft and truthfully I don't see them taking one. We have two good starters, Virgil Green (a good blocker) and the staff's project in Julius Thomas. Maybe in the later rounds we take someone.

Tyler Eifert would be an impact player right away. Hes got just as much catching abilities as some of the better WR's in this draft.


Maybe, but I think Elway likes our TE situation. Blowing a pick on that position right now while ignoring defense would be a bad idea, IMO.

I agree that Elway might but I also believe that Eifert would immediately be the best TE on the team if he was drafted by the Broncos. I have him in between Gronk and Kyle Rudolf as a prospect.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to like the progression from Isreal Idonije, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Idonije

This guy might be slowly moving into his prime.
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AntiSuperstar


Joined: 07 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
I have him in between Gronk and Kyle Rudolf as a prospect.


That's a pretty wide range. The best Tight End in the league and an average starter, there's a lot in between those positions.
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FabrizioHC


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote:
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
I have him in between Gronk and Kyle Rudolf as a prospect.


That's a pretty wide range. The best Tight End in the league and an average starter, there's a lot in between those positions.


The problem with Rudolph is that he has Ponder as his QB. 75% of the offensive snaps we're handed to Adrian Peterson. If you put Rudolph in a situation to succeed, he can easily be a Top 10 tight end. Minnesota is not a good place to be right now.
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
I have him in between Gronk and Kyle Rudolf as a prospect.

Ummm, okay..... That's quite a range. That's like saying of a QB prospect "he's between Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith." At one end you have the best in the game and at the other you have a slightly above-average player.

Moreover, I think the powers that be at Dove Valley see more holes on the defensive side of the ball than the offensive. That's especially true with Dumervil gone and no replacement available. Freeney and Abraham want to get paid for their names and Ayers offers less than nothing as a pass rusher.

I'd be seriously pissedoff if Elway opted for a role-player on offense (a RB or a TE, for example) than someone who can make an impact on defense. Dreessen-Tamme-Green is not the best TE trio in the NFL but Thomas-Decker-Welker might be the best WR trio. We have a damn fine OL and RB corps that's good enough to win a Super Bowl with the addition of a mid-round rookie. What we need is another play-maker on the defensive side of the ball.

The pick at #28 needs to be the best defensive player on the board.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote:
That's a pretty wide range. The best Tight End in the league and an average starter, there's a lot in between those positions.


AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Ummm, okay..... That's quite a range. That's like saying of a QB prospect "he's between Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith." At one end you have the best in the game and at the other you have a slightly above-average player.


Both you guys need to learn to read...

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
I have him in between Gronk and Kyle Rudolf as a prospect.


Im fully aware that Gronk is the best player at the TE position in the NFL and that Rudolf isnt more than average right now. Im also very aware that Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL while Alex Smith is vastly overrated. However, Smith was a #1 pick and Rodgers slipped to late 1st. In terms of being a prospect, Rodgers wasnt anything close to what he is now.

What I said was in terms of being a prospect. Gronk came out with a ton of potential but a laundry list of injuries and Rudolf came out with very average film and some potential. What has separated one from the other is that one is being fed footballs from a first-ballot HOF and the other is being underthrown by Christian Ponder. I think Rudolf can easily be a top-5 TE if he had a QB throwing to him.

That said, I think Eifert can be in between the two as a prospect. He has as much potential as Gronk but has the film like Rudolf sometimes. With Manning throwing him passes, I think he would be a GEM!
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AntiSuperstar


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I disagree with what appears to be your conclusion Jersey. The problem isn't that Kyle Rudolph hasn't lived up to his potential so much as, just like with your Alex Smith example, Kyle Rudolph simply was overrated as a player coming out. You watch Rudolph play and there is honestly nothing impressive about him. Physically he's just a guy who's 6'6, and height tends to be overrated in the NFL. His run after the catch ability is non-existent, he's not very powerful, doesn't play with much agility, he's just another meh Tight End like Dustin Keller and many others.

I also don't buy at all that Rudolph is being held back in Minnesota. If anything, as has often occurred, teams with weak Quarterbacks and/or weak wide receivers like with Minnesota tend to have Tight Ends with inflated stats. Most Tight End routes are much easier throws for Quarterbacks too so it makes sense for a lesser QB to target them(like how often Sanchez throws to mediocrity Dustin Keller). The reality I think is that Kyle Rudolph just isn't all that good a player and that "draft experts" were wrong. I think the Tight End and Safety positions in particular are too often misunderstood by draft experts and even by NFL teams.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote:
Well I disagree with what appears to be your conclusion Jersey. The problem isn't that Kyle Rudolph hasn't lived up to his potential so much as, just like with your Alex Smith example, Kyle Rudolph simply was overrated as a player coming out. You watch Rudolph play and there is honestly nothing impressive about him. Physically he's just a guy who's 6'6, and height tends to be overrated in the NFL. His run after the catch ability is non-existent, he's not very powerful, doesn't play with much agility, he's just another meh Tight End like Dustin Keller and many others.

I also don't buy at all that Rudolph is being held back in Minnesota. If anything, as has often occurred, teams with weak Quarterbacks and/or weak wide receivers like with Minnesota tend to have Tight Ends with inflated stats. Most Tight End routes are much easier throws for Quarterbacks too so it makes sense for a lesser QB to target them(like how often Sanchez throws to mediocrity Dustin Keller). The reality I think is that Kyle Rudolph just isn't all that good a player and that "draft experts" were wrong. I think the Tight End and Safety positions in particular are too often misunderstood by draft experts and even by NFL teams.

Anti, you know better than this. You have a smart football mind and are completely neglecting the biggest issue regard Ponder.

You know very well that a QB that can drive the football to the outside receivers open up plenty of holes for the TE. Because Ponder is so poor in throwing the ball outside, the box gets clogged, leaving not much room for Rudolf to move around. Obviously, AP plays a big role in this but it doesnt take away from Ponders lack of skills.

I watched the Vikings play a couple times last year and came up very unimpressed with Ponder but very impressed with the offensive unit as a whole. I believe that if they had a QB that can extend the defense another 5-10 yards, that team would be really good. Rudolf does see a lot of targets but the footballs hes thrown are usually in tough windows and without a lot of room to run.

Tyler Eifert to me is a physical specimen that can catch the football as good as he can be an asset in the run game. The ND offense certainly doesnt help his draft stock. If he played in Stanfords offense (in place of Ertz), I guarantee everyone would be all over him. Hes got the physical abilities that Gronk had coming out but needs to polish them more.
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
Well I disagree with what appears to be your conclusion Jersey. The problem isn't that Kyle Rudolph hasn't lived up to his potential so much as, just like with your Alex Smith example, Kyle Rudolph simply was overrated as a player coming out. You watch Rudolph play and there is honestly nothing impressive about him. Physically he's just a guy who's 6'6, and height tends to be overrated in the NFL. His run after the catch ability is non-existent, he's not very powerful, doesn't play with much agility, he's just another meh Tight End like Dustin Keller and many others.

I also don't buy at all that Rudolph is being held back in Minnesota. If anything, as has often occurred, teams with weak Quarterbacks and/or weak wide receivers like with Minnesota tend to have Tight Ends with inflated stats. Most Tight End routes are much easier throws for Quarterbacks too so it makes sense for a lesser QB to target them(like how often Sanchez throws to mediocrity Dustin Keller). The reality I think is that Kyle Rudolph just isn't all that good a player and that "draft experts" were wrong. I think the Tight End and Safety positions in particular are too often misunderstood by draft experts and even by NFL teams.

Anti, you know better than this. You have a smart football mind and are completely neglecting the biggest issue regard Ponder.

You know very well that a QB that can drive the football to the outside receivers open up plenty of holes for the TE. Because Ponder is so poor in throwing the ball outside, the box gets clogged, leaving not much room for Rudolf to move around. Obviously, AP plays a big role in this but it doesnt take away from Ponders lack of skills.

I watched the Vikings play a couple times last year and came up very unimpressed with Ponder but very impressed with the offensive unit as a whole. I believe that if they had a QB that can extend the defense another 5-10 yards, that team would be really good. Rudolf does see a lot of targets but the footballs hes thrown are usually in tough windows and without a lot of room to run.

Tyler Eifert to me is a physical specimen that can catch the football as good as he can be an asset in the run game. The ND offense certainly doesnt help his draft stock. If he played in Stanfords offense (in place of Ertz), I guarantee everyone would be all over him. Hes got the physical abilities that Gronk had coming out but needs to polish them more.


I haven't followed the TE's much, but as I see it isn't Eifert more likely to be long gone at 28, and Ertz having a good shot at being available.

I agree with you JF that Eifert is the better pass catcher and playmaker at the position. Its just been in my mind that he'll be gone probabaly in the early 20s at the latest.
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