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broncos67
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| bhslinebacker wrote: | | AKRNA wrote: | Just a thought. From what I've read some of Austins value comes in the return game. That said, thats of no value to Denver.
You've got to think the staff are pretty pleased with Holliday as a returner. It's not that unusual for a team ot have one small guy (-180 lbs) as a return guy and Offensive speciaist. (WR, RB limited carry / touch guy)
I can't think of a team carrying two though. |
If Austin were to be the pick, Holliday would become expendable. Yes he is electric in the return game, but he has ball security issues and is not a viable asset on offense, which Tavon would be. |
Ehh, they wouldn't get rid of Holliday. Tavon is unproven in the NFL all-around, Trindon Holliday was amazing for us last year. I'll take Holliday. If we're drafting Tavon Austin in the first round, may as well allow him to do his WR/RB thing and not worry about KR/PR
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JerseysFinest27
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
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Location: New Jersey... Props to inDENguise on the sig
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| broncos67 wrote: | | bhslinebacker wrote: | | AKRNA wrote: | Just a thought. From what I've read some of Austins value comes in the return game. That said, thats of no value to Denver.
You've got to think the staff are pretty pleased with Holliday as a returner. It's not that unusual for a team ot have one small guy (-180 lbs) as a return guy and Offensive speciaist. (WR, RB limited carry / touch guy)
I can't think of a team carrying two though. |
If Austin were to be the pick, Holliday would become expendable. Yes he is electric in the return game, but he has ball security issues and is not a viable asset on offense, which Tavon would be. |
Ehh, they wouldn't get rid of Holliday. Tavon is unproven in the NFL all-around, Trindon Holliday was amazing for us last year. I'll take Holliday. If we're drafting Tavon Austin in the first round, may as well allow him to do his WR/RB thing and not worry about KR/PR |
This is true. Holliday isnt going anywhere at least not this year. What he brought to this team last year was a spark on specials which not many have seen before.
Austin would be in the WR/RB role only.
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AKRNA
Joined: 28 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| JerseysFinest27 wrote: | | broncos67 wrote: | | bhslinebacker wrote: | | AKRNA wrote: | Just a thought. From what I've read some of Austins value comes in the return game. That said, thats of no value to Denver.
You've got to think the staff are pretty pleased with Holliday as a returner. It's not that unusual for a team ot have one small guy (-180 lbs) as a return guy and Offensive speciaist. (WR, RB limited carry / touch guy)
I can't think of a team carrying two though. |
If Austin were to be the pick, Holliday would become expendable. Yes he is electric in the return game, but he has ball security issues and is not a viable asset on offense, which Tavon would be. |
Ehh, they wouldn't get rid of Holliday. Tavon is unproven in the NFL all-around, Trindon Holliday was amazing for us last year. I'll take Holliday. If we're drafting Tavon Austin in the first round, may as well allow him to do his WR/RB thing and not worry about KR/PR |
This is true. Holliday isnt going anywhere at least not this year. What he brought to this team last year was a spark on specials which not many have seen before.
Austin would be in the WR/RB role only. |
Not since Rick Upchurch. Holliday's special. The record books would seem to support that.
Anyway, you fella's had quite a chance to watch him this year. What do you think the chances are that they try to get him a few touches on offense per game?
Just his presence on a field poses some nightmares for DC's. Maybe the fastest man in the NFL? If not, he's in the discussion. |
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AntiSuperstar
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| elliot878 wrote: | | I think Patterson is more of a Harvin if I'm comparing. |
Eh, he's a bigger and much less explosive.
| AKRNA wrote: | Not since Rick Upchurch. Holliday's special. The record books would seem to support that.
Anyway, you fella's had quite a chance to watch him this year. What do you think the chances are that they try to get him a few touches on offense per game?
Just his presence on a field poses some nightmares for DC's. Maybe the fastest man in the NFL? If not, he's in the discussion. |
Small return men usually have a short shelf life. I would rather keep Holliday on Special Teams and have a reserve ready to replace him whenever necessary. He's never going to be anything more than a gimmick player on offense.
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broncos67
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Holliday got some touches in the Carolina game, and if they used him properly he'd be a weapon on offense. The problem is that he occasionally has fumbleitis so it's not really so beneficial to do that.
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AntiSuperstar
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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"If used properly." I've seen this 100 times with small return men. They get the ball on some gimmick play, usually a deep route of some sort or an end-around, they have success with this for one or two games, opposing teams are ready for it in subsequent games and those return men become liabilities on offense from then until the end of their careers.
When a guy is so small that the window for a Quarterback to get him the ball is almost non-existant, and when he's not strong enough to break many tackles, and when he has no concept of running routes, and when he's build-up speed player, he's not going to be a factor on offense. Ever. I wouldn't even bother. Maybe one week a season you throw in some gimmick play for him but I wouldn't go any further than that. He's not going to be a weapon on offense.
I see this with fans of teams every year. Redskins fans wanted Brandon Banks to play more on offense. Chiefs fans wanted Dante Hall more. It fails every time but fans want more.
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broncos67
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| AntiSuperstar wrote: | "If used properly." I've seen this 100 times with small return men. They get the ball on some gimmick play, usually a deep route of some sort or an end-around, they have success with this for one or two games, opposing teams are ready for it in subsequent games and those return men become liabilities on offense from then until the end of their careers.
When a guy is so small that the window for a Quarterback to get him the ball is almost non-existant, and when he's not strong enough to break many tackles, and when he has no concept of running routes, and when he's build-up speed player, he's not going to be a factor on offense. Ever. I wouldn't even bother. Maybe one week a season you throw in some gimmick play for him but I wouldn't go any further than that. |
Well I agree, but essentially that's what they did in the Panthers game. Lined Holliday up in the backfield, sent him on a short slant to the sidelines, gave him the ball, and it was 11 yards each time, or about that.
To me, that's using him properly. He's quick enough to win those DE and LB matchups, and even then he can only be used so often.
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AKRNA
Joined: 28 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Now we're kind of hitting the points I'd make about Austin.
For a team to draft him as a PR/KR/WR/RB makes some sense. To spend a 1st on him to me is a reach. Personally I think he'll go the way of virtually every other undersized offensive weapon in history.
5' 8", 175lbs is IMO too small to be anything but a gimmick player in the NFL. Sure, he's an electric player, so was Johnny Rodgers and a bunch of others. To the best of my knowledge no player his size has ever really justified a #1 pick. They just can't hold up.
It's a league filled with very large, very fast men. At that point, laws of physics take over. |
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AntiSuperstar
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| AKRNA wrote: | Now we're kind of hitting the points I'd make about Austin.
For a team to draft him as a PR/KR/WR/RB makes some sense. To spend a 1st on him to me is a reach. Personally I think he'll go the way of virtually every other undersized offensive weapon in history.
5' 8", 175lbs is IMO too small to be anything but a gimmick player in the NFL. Sure, he's an electric player, so was Johnny Rodgers and a bunch of others. To the best of my knowledge no player his size has ever really justified a #1 pick. They just can't hold up.
It's a league filled with very large, very fast men. At that point, laws of physics take over. |
Eh, Steve Smith, Wes Welker, and Santana Moss weren't exactly big guys either. Let's not conflate 5'5 with 5'8. The difference is significant. I mean if you really want someone to pain a picture, 5'8 is barely smaller than the cornerbacks covering you. A 5'5 player on the otherhand is dwarfed by what are normally the smallest, least imposing players on the field(Brandon Browner excepted) and has a Quarterback who is about a foot taller throwing to him.
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Last edited by AntiSuperstar on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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broncos67
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| AKRNA wrote: | Now we're kind of hitting the points I'd make about Austin.
For a team to draft him as a PR/KR/WR/RB makes some sense. To spend a 1st on him to me is a reach. Personally I think he'll go the way of virtually every other undersized offensive weapon in history.
5' 8", 175lbs is IMO too small to be anything but a gimmick player in the NFL. Sure, he's an electric player, so was Johnny Rodgers and a bunch of others. To the best of my knowledge no player his size has ever really justified a #1 pick. They just can't hold up.
It's a league filled with very large, very fast men. At that point, laws of physics take over. |
Percy Harvin.
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AKRNA
Joined: 28 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| AntiSuperstar wrote: | | AKRNA wrote: | Now we're kind of hitting the points I'd make about Austin.
For a team to draft him as a PR/KR/WR/RB makes some sense. To spend a 1st on him to me is a reach. Personally I think he'll go the way of virtually every other undersized offensive weapon in history.
5' 8", 175lbs is IMO too small to be anything but a gimmick player in the NFL. Sure, he's an electric player, so was Johnny Rodgers and a bunch of others. To the best of my knowledge no player his size has ever really justified a #1 pick. They just can't hold up.
It's a league filled with very large, very fast men. At that point, laws of physics take over. |
Eh, Steve Smith, Wes Welker, and Santana Moss weren't exactly big guys either. Let's not conflate 5'5 with 5'8. The difference is significant. I mean if you really want someone to pain a picture, 5'8 is barely smaller than the cornerbacks covering you. A 5'5 player on the otherhand is dwarfed by what are normally the smallest, least imposing players on the field(Brandon Browner excepted) and has a Quarterback who is about a foot taller throwing to him. |
Those fella's you mentioned are all 10-20 pounds heavier than Austin. Also, they were all used heavily as returners. Harvins a solid 200.
I'm not concerned so much with height as frame, height to weight ratio.
Holliday at 5'5" carries the same weight as Austin who's 3+ inches taller.
I'm just sayin', drop below 175 lbs you're more of a gimmick size. Seems quite a stretch to me to spend a #1 there when you won't use the guy in the return game, he'll be at best your 4th WR this year and probably does not have the frame to ever contribute on an every down basis and stay healthy.
Maybe he does, but I think he'd be the 1st of that size to do it. I can't remember another. |
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AntiSuperstar
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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I expect the guy can add about 10 pounds and be fine, that's not a big deal to me. Besides, the NFL likes to inflate player weights. I doubt Santana Moss for much of his career has really been much over 170. Either way, being a little on the light side is something that can likely be fixed.
For the record Harvin seemed pretty light to me coming out of Florida, but since being in the NFL he's proven to be a guy who can not only play but is hard to tackle as well. I wouldn't put too much in the 170 weight. If a guy is 170 and doesn't look very strong on tape, ok, that's a concern. But the weight itself isn't a big deal to me. Frankly I expect NFL players to be bigger than they were in college, barring position changes or a player being heavily overweight in college etc.
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1234567
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that we necessarily need a receiver, but if he's the best player available at 28, then yea, I'd be fine with it. As AAA has alluded to, picking based purely on need tends to make you reach. Especially when you have a later pick like we do. I'd much rather spend our first on one of the 2 best receivers in the draft than the 6th best D-lineman.
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FabrizioHC
Joined: 11 Apr 2012
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Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| AnAngryAmerican wrote: |
| FabrizioHC wrote: | | I don't see him in Fox's over conservative offense |
This statement smacks of ignorance. Was Fox's offense, which was as much McCoy's, Gase's and Manning's offense, "over conservative" (I'm sure you mean overly conservative) in the regular season? Or are you basing this off the kneel down decision in the playoff game? I have to assume it's the latter and is of the same line of over-reactive, narrowly-focused line of thinking that posits Champ needs to move to safety and Rahim Moore should be cut; which are foolish over-reactions. |
No, I'm talking about the offense that ran it to the weak-side on every first down on 17 games. I'm talking about the offense that hasn't utilized Hillman correctly, Hillman would be such a threat on screens and running it to the outside but they're stubborn and continue to make him run it between the tackles. I'm talking about the offense that had so much success on a screen pass to Trindon Holliday and that play was never seen again. I'm talking about the offense that, even with Demaryius success on screens early in the season, suddenly stopped using them. An offense that could line up Trindon Holliday literally anywhere, you could use him just like they used Austin at WVU, but they don't. |
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BroncosFan2010
Joined: 04 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | An offense that could line up Trindon Holliday literally anywhere, you could use him just like they used Austin at WVU, but they don't. |
Holliday is absolutely terrible at fighting for the ball when its in the air. This is why he will never get reps in the slot or even on fly routes. Unless he gets completely wide open, he just isnt big/strong enough to get up there and fight the CB.
I do agree that we should line him up for screen passes and in the backfield 2-3 times a game. |
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