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Ponder-iffic or Ponder-errible? the 2013 Pre-Season Debate.
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Kellerman


Joined: 16 May 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^

I always have the feeling that 'elite' is a label that often get's retroactively attached to QB's that win the SB.

Case in point: Eli Manning and Flacco. When they won the SB they were suddenly 'elite' QB's. It's kind of a chicken/egg story. In their cases, I feel like winning the big one was what made them 'elite'.

If, for example, Matt Ryan and the Falcons win the SB next year, many will see Ryan as an elite QB. Many more than do so right now, but has Matt Ryan really changed? Not really, he's still the same Matt Ryan, but now the public perception has changed from choker to elite QB.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldnt call Joe Flacco an elite QB. I have a hard time calling Eli Manning an elite QB.

I see the term elite as a word to describe the cream of the crop, the best of the best, and having more then 5 elite starting QBs just doesnt make in a league that consists of 32 starting QBs.

There isnt a magic number for defining an elite QB however, its pretty easy to spot.

Brady, Rodgers, Brees and P. Manning are all clearly the top 4 QBs right now, they are all in a tier above the rest. Therefore, those are the elite QBs. So 4/32 QBs are elite, which is still 12.5%.

The next tier of great QBs would include Eli Manning, Big Ben, Ryan, Flacco, and maybe a few others.
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
I wouldnt call Joe Flacco an elite QB. I have a hard time calling Eli Manning an elite QB.


I don't either, but a lot of people (and media) do, especially after their SB wins. Heck, last year people were still discussing whether the Ravens should look for a new QB, because Flacco couldn't win them a Superbowl.
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eman9416


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kellerman wrote:

Case in point: Eli Manning and Flacco. When they won the SB they were suddenly 'elite' QB's. It's kind of a chicken/egg story. In their cases, I feel like winning the big one was what made them 'elite'.


Agreed, there is a big difference between Elite and Great. Elite just gets thrown around way to often.
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Bermuda Viking


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eman9416 wrote:
Kellerman wrote:

Case in point: Eli Manning and Flacco. When they won the SB they were suddenly 'elite' QB's. It's kind of a chicken/egg story. In their cases, I feel like winning the big one was what made them 'elite'.


Agreed, there is a big difference between Elite and Great. Elite just gets thrown around way to often.


My Dad is a big Giants and Eli fan and Eli doesnt get "elite" status from the media mere months after he wins his second superbowl. Eli is just not interesting enough for the media, but two rings is two rings. We can doubt Dilfer on the one, but getting two deserves some cred.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bradshaw had four for what its worth.

Rings only tell part of the picture.

Looking at the numbers, how many elite seasons has Manning had relative to his peers in a pass happy league. He is still a mistake prone QB, with low completion %, and a usually unimpressive TD:INT ratio. This is why i just cant put him in the elite category, he is great no doubt, but he is still a very flawed QB to this day.
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twslhs20


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this article from 07'. Kinda interesting as to what stats coaches tend to focus on in the modern era.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80358f1f/article/numbers-game-what-statistics-matter-most-to-nfl-coaches

2012 stats for 3 of the 4.

Yards Per Pass Attempt-31st
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt

NFL Team Redzone scoring percentage-18th
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

2012 starting field percentage-16th
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats

^^ that one probably doesn't matter anymore since Goodell killed kickoffs. I mean The giants were first with 31.4 Laughing
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swiss_vike


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flacco was elite in the playoffs, that's pretty clear.

Do That another 5 seasons, then we're talking elite QB.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swiss_vike wrote:
Flacco was elite in the playoffs, that's pretty clear.

Do That another 5 seasons, then we're talking elite QB.


I agree. In five season, Brady, Manning, Brees will all be out of the NFL. In 3-5 seasons, Flacco could be the next wave of elite Qb.

His regular season is still underhwhelming for elite status, but he is a beast in the playoffs.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last year spoke to the role Ponder played with the Vikings. It was pretty easy to decipher Ė even for non-football fans. If he doesnít make mistakes, the Vikings win. If he does, they lose. In 16 starts last year, Ponder didnít throw an interception in eight of them. The Vikings went 7-1 in those games. In the eight games he did throw a pick, the Vikings were 3-5.

In six games, Ponder was sacked one time or less. The significance of that is that he was, for the most part, not beaten down in the backfield. In those six games, the Vikings went 5-1. In games he was sacked two or more times, the Vikings were 5-5, and in games he was sacked three or four times, the Vikings were 1-4.

Few quarterbacks have such night-and-day statistics. Great quarterbacks can throw a couple of early interceptions and come back and win games by catching fire in the second half. Ponderís numbers speak loudly. When he isnít pressured and doesnít make mistakes, the Vikings win. When he does, the Vikings lose.

http://min.scout.com/2/1290925.html
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JDBrocks


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VD - I don't know what to think about that. It's really intriguing from a statistical analysis standpoint, but I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

You'd ideally have a quarterback that can limit his mistakes, but also has short memory and can rally after making poor decisions.

I don't know how much more Ponder's mental game can improve over one off season, and with the difficult schedule that doesn't bode well. At the same time the improvement made to the receiving corps, and the consistency on the OL should be a big help.

This shouldn't feel like as big of a question mark as it did last year, but it does right now.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have team that is built to win.
If a QB plays a clean game, the game should be ours.
Our team can win with above-average or average QB play, we cant win with below-average QB play.

Overall Last season i think he still falls into the below-average category and ee got 10 wins due to the contributions of AP et al.

If Ponder can improve to squarely onto "average QB", 10 wins would be a realistic goal even if AP only puts up 80% of his yardage.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JDBrocks wrote:
VD - I don't know what to think about that. It's really intriguing from a statistical analysis standpoint, but I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

i think it helps to demonstrate what is obvious to all of us - given that Ponder is not an elite or Top Ten NFL QB on the merit of his own skills, the team needs to play error free ball and catch every lucky break and bounce to eke out a close win.

Spielman is very much building a TEAM. except for Peterson we really don't have any superstars that can carry the entire team on their backs, so every player has to play to their best ability and limit mistakes to near zero for us to win.
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JDBrocks


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
JDBrocks wrote:
VD - I don't know what to think about that. It's really intriguing from a statistical analysis standpoint, but I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

i think it helps to demonstrate what is obvious to all of us - given that Ponder is not an elite or Top Ten NFL QB on the merit of his own skills, the team needs to play error free ball and catch every lucky break and bounce to eke out a close win.

Spielman is very much building a TEAM. except for Peterson we really don't have any superstars that can carry the entire team on their backs, so every player has to play to their best ability and limit mistakes to near zero for us to win.


Which leads me to believe that they NEED to find a superstar QB to put them over the top and to be able to win consistently. I like the team approach, but in the NFL, much like in the NBA, you need superstars to win.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JDBrocks wrote:
Which leads me to believe that they NEED to find a superstar QB to put them over the top and to be able to win consistently. I like the team approach, but in the NFL, much like in the NBA, you need superstars to win.

the linked article goes on to opine basically the same thing.

that if Ponder remains at best a game managing QB, then the Vikings will not be able to make the leap to a consistent Super Bowl contender and he will need to be replaced by one who can perform at a higher level. but if Ponder can make the leap, then the Vikings will consistently be in the hunt.

this year is the telling year.
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