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49ers trade QB Alex Smith to Chiefs for 2nd rounder, another
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ryknowssd


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
Random incoherent rambling...


Alex Smith will make the Pro-Bowl AND the playoffs this year. GET OVER IT.
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Rearviewmirror


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
Besides, I’ve never said the Chiefs should not have acquired Alex Smith, just at an intelligent price. We’ll never know “what if”, but I maintain that had the Chiefs not drooled over Alex Smith like a drunk at a strip club, they could have gotten him for one draft pick.

You do know there are reports that the Raiders offered their 2nd rounder yes? That means that the starting that at that time Baalke had 2 teams offering high 2nds. So no, we couldn't have gotten him for 1 draft pick unless you wanted to give up #1 overall. I assume you would hate that even more. As long as we win a playoff game Alex Smith will be well worth 2 2nds in my view. I also don't think you see what I see in the rest of the roster this year. Don't take my defending Alex Smith into me thinking he's a this amazing and great QB, but with what we have around him, he's definitely good enough to win.

Mongo wrote:
They didn’t. Those guys were not overpaid. They were no threat to the starters in place. The teams trading them could have kept them had they chose. Instead, they shrewdly fleeced stupid QB starved teams.


Cassel was franchised when he was traded. If the 49ers wouldn't keep Alex Smith for 7.5 mil then the Pats sure as hell wouldn't keep Cassel for top 5 QB money.
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marnz


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no1 here knows what the market value for him actually was it is 100% speculation so there is no point saying overpaid or underpaid


but if i can make 1 guess the way the qbs went in the draft it definitally seemed what we paid was market value
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bpinsky33


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Rearviewmirror]You do know there are reports that the Raiders offered their 2nd rounder yes? That means that the starting that at that time Baalke had 2 teams offering high 2nds.
[/quote]

No to be contradictory, but Oakland didn't have their 2nd this year. They were likely offering thier 3rd this year and a 2nd next year (or some other combination). This is if the reports are true that Oakland made an offer. I would imagine the Bills, Cards, and Jets were all making calls to the 49ers. I also wouldn't be shocked if "borderline" QB teams like Tampa Bay called the 49ers, and there would be no "leaks" about their interest because they don't want to upset their current QB in case a trade couldn't happen.

The fact is IF we wanted a good QB to start this year, we needed to trade for A. Smith. The compenstion was high becuase the compition was high. You could argue that if Pioli would have gotten off of his high horse about Cassel last summer we wouldn't be in this spot...but we are so we have to pay for it.

If you want to look for a comparison look at the Redskins trade for RGIII. The WAY overpaid, but they needed to because that is what the market was dictating. I would argue that the Redskin fans are happy with the trade today...but it was still a HUGE risk.
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Mongo


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
Mongo wrote:
Besides, I’ve never said the Chiefs should not have acquired Alex Smith, just at an intelligent price. We’ll never know “what if”, but I maintain that had the Chiefs not drooled over Alex Smith like a drunk at a strip club, they could have gotten him for one draft pick.

You do know there are reports that the Raiders offered their 2nd rounder yes? That means that the starting that at that time Baalke had 2 teams offering high 2nds. So no, we couldn't have gotten him for 1 draft pick unless you wanted to give up #1 overall. I assume you would hate that even more. As long as we win a playoff game Alex Smith will be well worth 2 2nds in my view. I also don't think you see what I see in the rest of the roster this year. Don't take my defending Alex Smith into me thinking he's a this amazing and great QB, but with what we have around him, he's definitely good enough to win.

Mongo wrote:
They didn’t. Those guys were not overpaid. They were no threat to the starters in place. The teams trading them could have kept them had they chose. Instead, they shrewdly fleeced stupid QB starved teams.


Cassel was franchised when he was traded. If the 49ers wouldn't keep Alex Smith for 7.5 mil then the Pats sure as hell wouldn't keep Cassel for top 5 QB money.

Regardless of the fact that the Raiders did not have an R2 to trade, I really don’t care if they did. To me, when the trade negotiations got to 2 R2 picks, I say, “Thanks, but no thanks. Call me when you are being realistic.” If someone else gets him, “Too bad. That sucks.”, and I move on. The fact that the Raiders might have been the competition further proves the point I’m making. Again I ask, “Do you want the new Chiefs to act as stupidly as the NFL losers?”

As for Cassel, you aren’t refuting my point. Players are franchised to retain their rights and ensure compensation on the free agent market. It may be because a team wants to keep that player, but not necessarily so. See Branden Albert. I’m sure the Pats had no intent on retaining Matt Cassel. They knew they had a hot commodity and some sucker would bite.

Again, I really don’t care how successful this team ends up under Alex Smith. I don’t care if he breaks every Super Bowl record and one day they bronze his member. At the time he was traded he wasn’t worth two R2. There are worse crimes. It’s a red flag on the FO to me. That’s all.

Let me put to you this way. Suppose, you need a new car desperately. Your old one was totaled. Tomorrow you buy a Ford Focus for $250K, because you really like it and it solves your problem. After 15 years of excellent service you look back. The car never broke down once. You put 500,000 miles on it. Was it worth the $250K? No, because you should have been able to get a Focus for much cheaper and still enjoyed the 15 years of service.

That’s NFL business 101.
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Mongo


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryknowssd wrote:
Mongo wrote:
Random incoherent rambling...


Alex Smith will make the Pro-Bowl AND the playoffs this year. GET OVER IT.

Sorry you weren't able to follow rational, non-homer-driven logic. I'll try to use smaller words for you.

In answer to your bravado, what’s there to get over?

The quality of this trade has nothing to with Alex Smith’s ability. The quality of this trade has nothing to with Alex Smith’s ability. The quality of this trade has nothing to with Alex Smith’s ability. The quality of this trade has nothing to with Alex Smith’s ability. The quality of this trade has nothing to with Alex Smith’s ability. It has to do with his value.

Maybe if I repeat it over and over you’ll finally be able to comprehend the point I’m making.

I hope your claims prove true. I’ll take them with a grain of salt, however. After all you’re the one who knew better than anyone that Geno Smith was a franchise QB prospect and anyone who differed in that opinion didn’t know what they were talking about.

Mods: Sorry, but my opinions trivialized to “incoherent rambling” is a personal insult. You didn't act, so I did.
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DT58_lives_on


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Mongo is just a closet Matt Cassel fan. Because like it or not, without making the move for Alex that may have been our "best" option.

The bottom line is, our FO gave up what they thought they had to in order to get the QB they wanted...period. As arm-chair QB's we have no idea what was on the table or what happened in the discussions. I agree it seems like a lot, but to be truthful, I almost would have given up a 2nd round pick JUST to be sure Cassel wouldn't be our starter this upcoming season.

Of course if we're gonna play the he said she said game...imagine how much nicer it would have been if KC just would have brought Smith in as competition for Cassel before LAST season. I know a couple people on here were arguing for that.

As far as the 9'ers keeping Smith, I see it as very unlikely, but keep in mind their 2 good QBs would have totaled around half of what the going rate for a pro-bowl type QB is.
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Mongo


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DT58_lives_on wrote:
I think Mongo is just a closet Matt Cassel fan.

Watch it! Demz fightin’ wurdz! Wink

Actually, I really hated that trade. I don’t “hate” this trade despite appearances. I’m happy to have Alex Smith. He should be the best KC QB since Trent Green.

I admit I will continually look at the progress of picks taken on and after KC’s R2 picks for years to come. Especially if this doesn’t bear fruit.
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DT58_lives_on


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you can't know how things would have panned out if we'd have kept our pick. EVEN IF we passed on a QB at 1 overall, don't you think some other teams might have jumped to get ahead...us trading for A. Smith drastically shaped how the draft played out in my opinion.

But hey I get it, I would still rather have A LOT of other players with the 2nd round pick we traded for Mike Vrabel.
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Mongo


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DT58_lives_on wrote:
But you can't know how things would have panned out if we'd have kept our pick. EVEN IF we passed on a QB at 1 overall, don't you think some other teams might have jumped to get ahead...us trading for A. Smith drastically shaped how the draft played out in my opinion.

But hey I get it, I would still rather have A LOT of other players with the 2nd round pick we traded for Mike Vrabel.

That's my point. I'm greedy, that's all.
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oldman9er


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To each his own, but while time consuming, I really enjoyed reading this post and all of the comments that followed it.


http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2013/6/2/4387404/alex-smith-impact-trends-and-averages-the-finale

Alex Smith - Impact (Trends and Averages: The Finale)
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:

You've got to be kidding me Shocked

Did the Pats have any use for Matt Cassel? 2nd round pick
Did the Eagles have any use for Kevin Kolb? 2nd round pick + DRC
Did the Falcons have any use for Matt Schaub? 2nd round pick

You're ideas of what market value is for a QB is just slightly outside of reality. Alex Smith is a proven starter who has won a playoff game, that's a way better resume than any other QB who has gone for 2nd round pick (plus in some cases)

Nope I’m absolutely serious. Those teams had absolute use for those players. They had value because of perceived upside at the most integral position in the NFL.

Before the last two years Alex Smith hadn’t proven anything except that he was inconsistent and possibly fragile. Now, he’s a player who lost his job to an unproven second year player with a hot hand. Alex Smith has no upside. We know who Alex Smith is. He’s not bad. He’s okay. He’ll never be great. Those other QB were moved in the hopes there was greatness in them. Not that they’d just be okay.

And besides, look at your examples. Were they shrewd decisions that propelled those teams to Super Bowl contention? Only Schaub has proved to be worthwhile. The other two were traded to losers and are no longer on the teams who overpaid for them. You’re making my case for me. Do the Steelers make moves like that? Do the Packers? It seems you think the “new” Chiefs should act as stupidly as some the worst teams in the NFL.

It is you who fails to recognize the value of QB in the NFL or, more importantly, how successful, intelligent teams handle their business. You think like the Chiefs, a team that hasn’t won a playoff game in 20 years or a Super Bowl in 43. A team that until proven otherwise is currently one of the worst teams in football.


They maybe had some perceived upside...but mostly just as franchise/starting QB's, anyone who ever thought of them as possible elite/top tier QB's was reaching. The level Alex is at now is about what any logical football man would expect to get out of any of those three. Since NE, Atl, and Phi were set at QB (as they saw it) for the forseeable future, those guys couldn't have more value than Alex Smith had since Alex has already attained that level.

Alex has been on pace to hit 20 TD's two times and the last two years led pretty high scoring offenses. Aikman threw 20 one time and is in the HOF. He's not the same guy as his first 5 years in the league. Some guys either "get it" late or because they aren't overly talented, can't overcome disastrous situations that better QB;s might. Rich Gannon is an example. Alex fits both categories. He is not ever going to be like the guy from his first 5 years.

Also, unlike the Mitchell's, Rob Johnson's,Grbacs, Cassels, and Kolb's of the world, Alex was a #1 pick because he was very talented...not as much as you'd want at #1, but most #1 picks fail because of work ethic or intelligence...Alex has both, he just wasn't as talented as most top picks and was dumped in a bad situations. We may not have seen the best of him.

RVM, all-time Chiefs QB's:

1.Montana
2.Dawson
3.Gannon
4.Green
5.Alex

Also Moon, but not at the time he played for us...Alex may or may not be better than Green, we just need to see him in Reid's offense.

By the way, did the Skins overpay for RG3....no matter what he becomes?
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Rumless


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
DT58_lives_on wrote:
But you can't know how things would have panned out if we'd have kept our pick. EVEN IF we passed on a QB at 1 overall, don't you think some other teams might have jumped to get ahead...us trading for A. Smith drastically shaped how the draft played out in my opinion.

But hey I get it, I would still rather have A LOT of other players with the 2nd round pick we traded for Mike Vrabel.

That's my point. I'm greedy, that's all.

Can't we all agree that Alex Smith sucks-until-proven-good or Alex Smith is good-until-proven-sucky?
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bigschmadt00


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:

Mods: Sorry, but my opinions trivialized to “incoherent rambling” is a personal insult. You didn't act, so I did.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you're apologizing for. Taking it as a personal insult maybe, idk. Is responding to an "insult" with the same trivial type of response really the right answer? If I feel someone is insulting me, I generally realize that anything I say is going to do nothing but garner more "insults."

I still have no idea why we're discussing this with such fervor. Opinions have been stated, there's no new ground being forged, and likely won't be on this topic for at least another 5 months. Agree to disagree and lets try and find something new to discuss.
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Mongo


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:

They maybe had some perceived upside...but mostly just as franchise/starting QB's, anyone who ever thought of them as possible elite/top tier QB's was reaching. The level Alex is at now is about what any logical football man would expect to get out of any of those three. Since NE, Atl, and Phi were set at QB (as they saw it) for the forseeable future, those guys couldn't have more value than Alex Smith had since Alex has already attained that level.

They were reaching and so are the Chiefs. Before I get blasted, understand this. There are worse crimes than reaching. A “reach” is a status that defines a specific point in time. At the time of the trade, two R1 were a reach for Alex Smith.

Another example: Several, including me, thought Tamba Hali was a slight reach when he was drafted. It was arguable. Even if he was, who cares anymore? If Alex Smith leads us to a Super Bowl, no one will care that the Chiefs overpaid, myself included. That won’t change the fact that they overpaid. It just won’t matter anymore.

Quote:

Alex has been on pace to hit 20 TD's two times and the last two years led pretty high scoring offenses. Aikman threw 20 one time and is in the HOF. He's not the same guy as his first 5 years in the league. Some guys either "get it" late or because they aren't overly talented, can't overcome disastrous situations that better QB;s might. Rich Gannon is an example. Alex fits both categories. He is not ever going to be like the guy from his first 5 years.

Also, unlike the Mitchell's, Rob Johnson's,Grbacs, Cassels, and Kolb's of the world, Alex was a #1 pick because he was very talented...not as much as you'd want at #1, but most #1 picks fail because of work ethic or intelligence...Alex has both, he just wasn't as talented as most top picks and was dumped in a bad situations. We may not have seen the best of him.

Few guys “get it late” like Gannon or Jim Plunkett. I’m not writing off that Alex Smith is one of them. I wouldn’t bet on it because the odds are against it. Even if he doesn’t have a Plunkett-like close to his career, he should do fine. However there is no comparing him to Troy Aikman. Aikman had the ability to put up amazing passing stats. He never had to. Smith doesn’t have that ability.

Quote:
RVM, all-time Chiefs QB's:

1.Montana
2.Dawson
3.Gannon
4.Green
5.Alex

Also Moon, but not at the time he played for us...Alex may or may not be better than Green, we just need to see him in Reid's offense.

What list are you building? “1. The greatest QB to ever play for the Chiefs” or “2. The greatest Chiefs QBs”? There is a difference. If it’s list 1, Moon deserves to be 3rd. If list two, there’s no way Montana can be that high. Dawson is without question, far-and-away #1. Montana didn’t even play two full season because of injuries. There were a few fun moments, but not that many. I put Green over Gannon on either list, but there’s no arguing list 2. Gannon was merely better than Elvis Grbac during his time in KC. He pretty much sucked too. I think Steve DeBerg belongs in there somewhere, as does Bill Kenney. It’s not a very impressive list, however. Lucky us.

Quote:

By the way, did the Skins overpay for RG3....no matter what he becomes?

Absolutely not. What has more value, a new car or a comparable used one? The new one, of course. RG3 was an absolute blue-chip, franchise QB prospect. The sky’s the limit for such players. Had the Chiefs been in WAS’s position, I would hope they would have done the exact same thing. Heaven help you if the guy busts, but you have to take that chance.

Just think. If the Chiefs don’t win a few meaningless games at the end of 2011, Romeo Crennel never becomes coach. Maybe Scott Pioli is fired then. The Chiefs end up where WAS drafted and make that trade. Of course everything else changes. We don’t get Andy Reid, but have RG3. I’d make that swap.
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