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BBando
Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 5832
Location: Tampa Bay
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 Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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^ we only got the crap kicked out of us one time. We were a few plays away from being a playoff team.
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| simonwayne wrote: | | I don't recall blaming the officials for any other Thunder loss this season. |
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REDandPEWTER
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 3790
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| BBando wrote: | | ^ we only got the crap kicked out of us one time. We were a few plays away from being a playoff team. |
And Freeman couldn't make those plays when needed. I think people look at his statistics way too much.
I'll give you this statistic: Josh was ranked 24th in the NFL in 3rd down completion percentage conversion. That's a bottom tier QB. Showing he cannot keep drives alive. Many want to quickly blame the defense. But in hindsight, it doesn't matter how good your defense is. If your offense continuously cannot stay on the field, defenses get tired. Watch the first half of the Seattle/Atlanta game. Seattles defense is phenomenal. However, their offense did squat the first half and half the 3rd quarter. Their defense was on the field TOO much.
Watch our games against Philadelphia, Washington, Dallas, Denver, St. Louis, New Orleans (2nd time), New York Giants. You'll see our offense continuosly go 3 and out and it's not converting 3rd downs in crucial moments to sustain drives. That's huge, yet, most will strictly blame the defense for not coming up with a stop, yet will not see that Josh Freeman didn't make the plays, didn't see a guy wide open or miss a read or throw that would have eaten clock and extended drives.
I'm in agreement with cali on this one. 4 years in the league, and he's still got the same question marks as a rookie. Rookies are performing head over heels than him, adapting to playbooks quicker as well. People will blame a "new OC". Matt Ryan had a new offensive coordinator as well. Look how well he did for himself.
I also think it's alarming when a guy like Freeman puts in all the work, yet it doesn't translate to the field. I'm glad he's busting his but, but if he's not processing it at game speed, then it just shows his intangibles are not that of a franchise qb. He;s got everything physically. But intangibles are what makes you a top caliber signal caller. Inconsistency means your more of a high quality back up qb. |
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BBando
Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 5832
Location: Tampa Bay
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not saying Freeman is the guy. I have been hard on him for a while now. But saying we got the crap kicked out of us is false.
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| simonwayne wrote: | | I don't recall blaming the officials for any other Thunder loss this season. |
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Calibucsfan
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 2495
Location: Los Angeles CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| BBando wrote: | | I'm not saying Freeman is the guy. I have been hard on him for a while now. But saying we got the crap kicked out of us is false. |
Ok...so maybe we didnt get the crap kicked out of us...but I will make it even worse...
we lost to Philly....with a rookie QB...while they were on a loosing streak....and giving up over 450+ yards a game through the air and avg rating of opposing QB's was in the mid 140's....and Freeman struggled all day...
that is just 1 example
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RoeKG
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 4005
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Calibucsfan wrote: | Lol you guys are talking like Freeman has done something...tank season? What did we do last season exactly? Win a few games against some bad teams and get the crap kicked out of us against everyone else?
How many more times must you guys see that stupid look on his face when he throws a pick or overthrows a wide open target before you guys realize we will never go anywhere with him. Go back and re-watch the games the past season in case you guys forgot...
I have a feeling that Orlavsky would of had a better season than Freeman if we would of started him from day 1...
If Cardinals were to swap us picks on draft day for Freeman AND Cheifs pass up on Geno, we would be stupid not to pull the trigger on that move...but then again that has almost no chance of happening |
No one is in here singing Freeman's praises. The point is that we don't have anyone who would take over for Freeman if we got rid of him.
Winning 7 games might not be exciting but it's a lot better than 2 or 3.
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Calibucsfan
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 2495
Location: Los Angeles CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| RoeKG wrote: | | Calibucsfan wrote: | Lol you guys are talking like Freeman has done something...tank season? What did we do last season exactly? Win a few games against some bad teams and get the crap kicked out of us against everyone else?
How many more times must you guys see that stupid look on his face when he throws a pick or overthrows a wide open target before you guys realize we will never go anywhere with him. Go back and re-watch the games the past season in case you guys forgot...
I have a feeling that Orlavsky would of had a better season than Freeman if we would of started him from day 1...
If Cardinals were to swap us picks on draft day for Freeman AND Cheifs pass up on Geno, we would be stupid not to pull the trigger on that move...but then again that has almost no chance of happening |
No one is in here singing Freeman's praises. The point is that we don't have anyone who would take over for Freeman if we got rid of him.
Winning 7 games might not be exciting but it's a lot better than 2 or 3. |
Take a chance on anyone> Freeman.
Seriously can anyone do worse?
And winning 1 game or 7 games..you are still not making playoffs which means when the playoffs do come around you are on the couch watching playoff with the other teams that only won 1 or 2 games..
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5nick5
Joined: 25 Jan 2011
Posts: 1079
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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If the Cardinals would actually look to make a play for Freeman, I think MD should listen. Yeah we have crap behind Freeman, but does anybody here honestly believe Freeman will ever lead to us to a lombardi trophy? This isn't Baltimore where we have a bunch of savvy vets that can compensate for a mediocre QB. We need a face.
If we trade Freeman we could get so much out of Arizona. If they're going to trade 2 2nd-round picks for a QB who started like 5 games, we could get there 1st (not swap) and maybe a 3rd or 4th. So what, we suck for a year as opposed to being mediocre. I believe you play to win the game, but you play to win it all not to just be the best of the mediocre. If we're picking in the top-5 next year and manage to snag Bridgewater, McCarron, or Manziel, then we'll be ready to join elite company. With Freeman, I doubt we ever see that.
Now obviously this won't happen because Schiano and MD still believe in Freeman (unless they're putting on the ultimate smokescreen). But we need a winner. I know everybody says "our QB situation is better than a lot of other teams" or "you don't need an elite QB to win Super Bowls", and that's true for most teams, but not for this team. On a team with a bunch of young talent, they need a leader that can energize them and energize the fanbase. Freeman hasn't shown he can do that.
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REDandPEWTER
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 3790
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| 5nick5 wrote: | If the Cardinals would actually look to make a play for Freeman, I think MD should listen. Yeah we have crap behind Freeman, but does anybody here honestly believe Freeman will ever lead to us to a lombardi trophy? This isn't Baltimore where we have a bunch of savvy vets that can compensate for a mediocre QB. We need a face.
If we trade Freeman we could get so much out of Arizona. If they're going to trade 2 2nd-round picks for a QB who started like 5 games, we could get there 1st (not swap) and maybe a 3rd or 4th. So what, we suck for a year as opposed to being mediocre. I believe you play to win the game, but you play to win it all not to just be the best of the mediocre. If we're picking in the top-5 next year and manage to snag Bridgewater, McCarron, or Manziel, then we'll be ready to join elite company. With Freeman, I doubt we ever see that.
Now obviously this won't happen because Schiano and MD still believe in Freeman (unless they're putting on the ultimate smokescreen). But we need a winner. I know everybody says "our QB situation is better than a lot of other teams" or "you don't need an elite QB to win Super Bowls", and that's true for most teams, but not for this team. On a team with a bunch of young talent, they need a leader that can energize them and energize the fanbase. Freeman hasn't shown he can do that. |
I agree with a lot you said. Freeman, unfortunately, 4 years and you see no change, is pretty much what you're going to get. Inconsistency at the qb position that freeman displays usually buys you the eventual role of career back up who can step in time to time and get you a win.
If someone comes at us with an offer, I'd say we must listen to it because quite frankly, I don't think Josh is the answer in Tampa, just from what we've seen.
I don't agree with your statement of Joe Flacco as a medicore qb. Thats a slap in the face to him with that comment, and any one who puts Flacco and Freeman as similar qbs or in the same class are clueless. Flacco is an elite QB. He has been and proved it. Freeman is no where near the player Flacco is. Stats mean nothing. Wins do and making plays in big games are what count, regardless of statistics.
On the 2014 class: Teddy Bridgewater and AJ McCarron are at the top of my list. McArron has the intangibles you look for in a QB. His arm strength is good enough to make the throws on the route tree and his instincts are top notch. The swagger of a winner, accuracy and poise in the pocket. |
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Caaddy24
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 4829
Location: cali/texas
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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More Josh Freeman debate?
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RoeKG
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 4005
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Calibucsfan wrote: | | RoeKG wrote: | | Calibucsfan wrote: | Lol you guys are talking like Freeman has done something...tank season? What did we do last season exactly? Win a few games against some bad teams and get the crap kicked out of us against everyone else?
How many more times must you guys see that stupid look on his face when he throws a pick or overthrows a wide open target before you guys realize we will never go anywhere with him. Go back and re-watch the games the past season in case you guys forgot...
I have a feeling that Orlavsky would of had a better season than Freeman if we would of started him from day 1...
If Cardinals were to swap us picks on draft day for Freeman AND Cheifs pass up on Geno, we would be stupid not to pull the trigger on that move...but then again that has almost no chance of happening |
No one is in here singing Freeman's praises. The point is that we don't have anyone who would take over for Freeman if we got rid of him.
Winning 7 games might not be exciting but it's a lot better than 2 or 3. |
Take a chance on anyone> Freeman.
Seriously can anyone do worse?
And winning 1 game or 7 games..you are still not making playoffs which means when the playoffs do come around you are on the couch watching playoff with the other teams that only won 1 or 2 games.. |
Look, I get what you're saying. I know that this is coming from a place that wants to see the Bucs be a great team, and I in many ways feel the same way.
But Dominik and Schiano would probably be fired after the season for making a move that would make the team worse without some sort of backup plan.
We would need to get our hands on Matt Moore, Matt Flynn, or Chad Henne or someone with half decent starting experience to ever even consider trading Freeman. Maybe we do, I don't know. In a way, I want to see it done to get something out of him, because there is a real chance he is gone after next season anyway.
But the point is, unless we sign a decent option at QB, it'll never happen.
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ravishingone
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Posts: 1837
Location: Leola
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder how many GMs in the last thirty years entering their fifth draft with no playoff appearances would be allowed by ownership to use another premium draft pick on a QB. I believe that list would probably be two or less.
Specifically, would Dom have the cajones to suggest to the Glazers that this year we have evaluated a can't miss QB who will guide us to the Super Bowl? I might not have gotten Freeman right, but I can assure you this QB is the real deal. Now I ask, how likely is this to happen? Furthermore, if they do choose a QB with a first or second round pick, this strongly suggests to me Coach Schiano has final say over personnel and not Dom. Then my question would be if that is the case, how long is Dom going to last in this organization? Similiar to the situation with McKay and Gruden.
Pretty sure Dom won't be the GM for a sixth draft if this team isn't in the playoffs come January. The only possible scenerio I can see Dom still being firmly in charge and Freeman not starting, is if by some remote chance Flacco isn't exclusively franchised and they make a pitch to get him. A lot easier for Dom to sell to the Glazers to spend big money and assets on a Super Bowl winning QB who is just entering his prime. Not to mention the cap hit of Flacco can be somewhat offset by the trading of Freeman and eliminating his $10 million cap hit.
Again, highly unlikely, I expect Freeman under center in September. |
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REDandPEWTER
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 3790
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ravishingone wrote: | I wonder how many GMs in the last thirty years entering their fifth draft with no playoff appearances would be allowed by ownership to use another premium draft pick on a QB. I believe that list would probably be two or less.
Specifically, would Dom have the cajones to suggest to the Glazers that this year we have evaluated a can't miss QB who will guide us to the Super Bowl? I might not have gotten Freeman right, but I can assure you this QB is the real deal. Now I ask, how likely is this to happen? Furthermore, if they do choose a QB with a first or second round pick, this strongly suggests to me Coach Schiano has final say over personnel and not Dom. Then my question would be if that is the case, how long is Dom going to last in this organization? Similiar to the situation with McKay and Gruden.
Pretty sure Dom won't be the GM for a sixth draft if this team isn't in the playoffs come January. The only possible scenerio I can see Dom still being firmly in charge and Freeman not starting, is if by some remote chance Flacco isn't exclusively franchised and they make a pitch to get him. A lot easier for Dom to sell to the Glazers to spend big money and assets on a Super Bowl winning QB who is just entering his prime. Not to mention the cap hit of Flacco can be somewhat offset by the trading of Freeman and eliminating his $10 million cap hit.
Again, highly unlikely, I expect Freeman under center in September. |
You make solid points. A lot of this debate and constructive criticism is speculation and I believe there is some truth that Dom and Schiano (mostly Schiano) are not exactly happy with his play. Think about this: Schiano wanted to bring competition in at QB. Then says Freeman is "The guy" for 2013. Dom said they will not negotiate a contract extension this off-season shortly after Schianos end of season press conference.
I really would not be surprised if we take a guy with upside, say an EJ Manuel in round 2 as a back up plan if Freeman falls. It's just an example. Will we do it? I don't know. But it would not surprise me. Freeman has not done anything to warrant an extension nor not to face competition. |
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BBando
Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 5832
Location: Tampa Bay
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Pete Prisco @PriscoCBS
I keep hearing the talk that the Bucs (as in Schiano) don't really like Josh Freeman and visa-versa |
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| simonwayne wrote: | | I don't recall blaming the officials for any other Thunder loss this season. |
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ravishingone
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Posts: 1837
Location: Leola
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| REDandPEWTER wrote: | | ravishingone wrote: | I wonder how many GMs in the last thirty years entering their fifth draft with no playoff appearances would be allowed by ownership to use another premium draft pick on a QB. I believe that list would probably be two or less.
Specifically, would Dom have the cajones to suggest to the Glazers that this year we have evaluated a can't miss QB who will guide us to the Super Bowl? I might not have gotten Freeman right, but I can assure you this QB is the real deal. Now I ask, how likely is this to happen? Furthermore, if they do choose a QB with a first or second round pick, this strongly suggests to me Coach Schiano has final say over personnel and not Dom. Then my question would be if that is the case, how long is Dom going to last in this organization? Similiar to the situation with McKay and Gruden.
Not to mention the Glazers have controlling interest in highest valued sports franchise in the world, so money shouldn't be a problem.
Pretty sure Dom won't be the GM for a sixth draft if this team isn't in the playoffs come January. The only possible scenerio I can see Dom still being firmly in charge and Freeman not starting, is if by some remote chance Flacco isn't exclusively franchised and they make a pitch to get him. A lot easier for Dom to sell to the Glazers to spend big money and assets on a Super Bowl winning QB who is just entering his prime. Not to mention the cap hit of Flacco can be somewhat offset by the trading of Freeman and eliminating his $10 million cap hit.
Again, highly unlikely, I expect Freeman under center in September. |
You make solid points. A lot of this debate and constructive criticism is speculation and I believe there is some truth that Dom and Schiano (mostly Schiano) are not exactly happy with his play. Think about this: Schiano wanted to bring competition in at QB. Then says Freeman is "The guy" for 2013. Dom said they will not negotiate a contract extension this off-season shortly after Schianos end of season press conference.
I really would not be surprised if we take a guy with upside, say an EJ Manuel in round 2 as a back up plan if Freeman falls. It's just an example. Will we do it? I don't know. But it would not surprise me. Freeman has not done anything to warrant an extension nor not to face competition. |
With this team anything is possible. They were left at the alter twice by Parcells. Spent two first round draft picks on Keyshawn Johnson. Spent two first round draft picks and a good chunk of change for Jon Gruden. I don't know what to expect, however, I'm pretty confident come March 12th it will not be a boring offseason. |
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REDandPEWTER
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 3790
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ravishingone wrote: | | REDandPEWTER wrote: | | ravishingone wrote: | I wonder how many GMs in the last thirty years entering their fifth draft with no playoff appearances would be allowed by ownership to use another premium draft pick on a QB. I believe that list would probably be two or less.
Specifically, would Dom have the cajones to suggest to the Glazers that this year we have evaluated a can't miss QB who will guide us to the Super Bowl? I might not have gotten Freeman right, but I can assure you this QB is the real deal. Now I ask, how likely is this to happen? Furthermore, if they do choose a QB with a first or second round pick, this strongly suggests to me Coach Schiano has final say over personnel and not Dom. Then my question would be if that is the case, how long is Dom going to last in this organization? Similiar to the situation with McKay and Gruden.
Pretty sure Dom won't be the GM for a sixth draft if this team isn't in the playoffs come January. The only possible scenerio I can see Dom still being firmly in charge and Freeman not starting, is if by some remote chance Flacco isn't exclusively franchised and they make a pitch to get him. A lot easier for Dom to sell to the Glazers to spend big money and assets on a Super Bowl winning QB who is just entering his prime. Not to mention the cap hit of Flacco can be somewhat offset by the trading of Freeman and eliminating his $10 million cap hit.
Again, highly unlikely, I expect Freeman under center in September. |
You make solid points. A lot of this debate and constructive criticism is speculation and I believe there is some truth that Dom and Schiano (mostly Schiano) are not exactly happy with his play. Think about this: Schiano wanted to bring competition in at QB. Then says Freeman is "The guy" for 2013. Dom said they will not negotiate a contract extension this off-season shortly after Schianos end of season press conference.
I really would not be surprised if we take a guy with upside, say an EJ Manuel in round 2 as a back up plan if Freeman falls. It's just an example. Will we do it? I don't know. But it would not surprise me. Freeman has not done anything to warrant an extension nor not to face competition. |
With this team anything is possible. They were left at the alter twice by Parcells. Spent two first round draft picks on Keyshawn Johnson. Spent two first round draft picks and a good chunk of change for Jon Gruden. I don't know what to expect, however, I'm pretty confident come March 12th it will not be a boring offseason. |
I don't see us spending crazy money and I hope we don't. I say add a few vets that can improve the secondary, and possible MLB or TE. Overspending ends up like the Redskins and Cowboys of old.
We can be active in FA, but quite frankly, buyer beware. The talent available is nothing like last year. |
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