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Slaymont Harris


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 1146
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
Why does anyone think Lewis' tackle stats have anything to do with his legacy? That's the absolute last reason why he's as highly regarded as he is, and it's last thing anyone should care about when judging his career.

Agreed. Tackle stats are worthless IMO, and really shouldn't be used to judge a player's greatness. We can celebrate Urlacher's greatness without trying to knock one of the greatest football players who ever lived.
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johnnyboy8102


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
johnnyboy8102 wrote:
BearsFan wrote:
Raw Lewis stats are grossly inaccurate. Any time he jumped on a pile after the whistle he was credited with the tackle. Tackling statistics are so skewed, it really is unfair to use them.

Ed Reed, Tony Siragusa, Haloti Ngata, Chris McAllister, Terrell Suggs and Peter Boulware are all arguably better than ANY player Urlacher paired with on defense, and the talent doesn't stop there. Rod Woodson, Sam Adams, Adalius Thomas, Bart Scott... you could go on for days. I always hear about how Ray Lewis makes everyone around him better, but maybe its the other way. Urlacher was asked to do way more on the field with less talent around him.

Is Brian Urlacher better than Ray Lewis? I don't know if I can objectively say that. I can affirm however that Urlacher was the best fit for what we asked him to do in our defense. In his prime I would not have taken anyone else. ANYONE.


Any proof of this? His home/away splits for his career only have a negligible difference.

Any stat keeper that was attempting to pad his stats did a very poor job. Especially when guys like London Fletcher and Jerod Mayo have night and day home/road splits the last few years.
I'm not arguing BearsFan's point, but home/road splits have nothing to do w/ how skewed tackle stats are. Its not an official stat, its kept purely by the team themselves and any guy who touched the tackled player is credited w/ an assist. Its a very poor stat.


This is incorrect.

The NFL assigns stat crews to every game and they credit tackles. Those totals are what is posted to NFL.com, cnnsi.com, espn.com, etc.

Most teams will then review the film and credit tackles using their own crediting criteria. That will lead to an inflated number.

For example, Urlacher's Profile on the Bears official website stats he had 214 tackles in 2002 (Check the Biography at the bottom of the link). However, in the stat column on that same page it shows a number of 151 for 2002. The 151 was the neutral stat crew tally from the play by play and the 214 number was the Bears' coaches review number.

http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Brian-Urlacher/8e3c5188-a1cf-4af3-81ef-9e205bb4c0b3

The last problem with tackles is that some stat crews assigned by the NFL will award an assist on every play while others are very stingy and will only hand out a few. For example, the Bears nfl assigned stat crew credits 23 combined assists per game among the two teams. The Ravens nfl assigned stat crew credits 26 between the two teams. Both teams are on the lower end of that. On the flip side, the Bengals (6Cool, Patriots (57), and Redskins (70) are at the other extreme end. Players playing for those teams will get inflated tackle numbers in their 8 home games while visiting teams will get an uptick as well.

A great example of the assist crediting problem is this. Last 4 seasons:

James Laurinaitis: 32 home games/23 assists credited

London Fletcher: 32 home games/156 assists

Here is a link with the average asssits awarded last season:

http://www.idpguru.com/2012/09/2012-tackles-issued-by-home-scorekeepers.html

I hope this help clarify and explain some things.
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johnnyboy8102


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

51to54 wrote:
johnnyboy8102 wrote:
51to54 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
I think in Urlacher's prime there was no defensive player that was as disruptive as him. His stats in a Tampa 2 are watered down, if he played in a system where he could have been the aggressor his stats would have been unbelievable. How many LB's were able to shadow Vick AND shut down a wide zone in coverage?

He was simply amazing to watch.

This and the Ray Lewis reference in another message.
The Ravens defense was built around Lewis. Two big DT's in front of him kept blockers off of him and allowed him to search and destroy. Urlacher had monster tackle stats when he had two big DT's in front of him earlier in his career.

Urlacher allowed Lovie's Cover Two to have a MLB that could drop into coverage like a safety and still cover sideline to sideline. Not great for stats because there is no intended receiver shutdown by deep dropping MLB stat.

Then Urlacher spent a few years (Briggs too) stuck so close to the line that their sideline to sideline ability was greatly diminished and 54 spent way too much time taking on 320 OT at the line of scrimmage, instead of doing a search and destroy.

I'd still give Lewis the edge, but with the caveat that if 54 had played in a defense built around him the margin would have been too slim to measure.


Lewis has played in a 3-4 since 2002 with the exception of 2005 (a season he played just 6 games in). He didn't have 2 Big DTs in front of him.

In fact, in 2003 (his 2nd DPOY season) he had Anthony Weaver , Kelly Gregg , Marques Douglas, Ma'ake Kemoeautu, and Riddick Parker playing in front of him. Not exactly the fearsome foursome.

Thanks for the correction with me showing my age with my early memories of Lewis, but the point still stands, perhaps moreso. The defense was built to his strength and boosted his stats. In a 3-4, the three Dlinemen's job is to keep blockers off of the LB's, especially the Mike LB.

Urlacher's strengths were used by often times being moved deeper off the line of scrimmage and away from tackles. And he was sorely misused for a few seasons.

Lot's of teams played the 3-4 over the years without having a ILB with Lewis numbers, but it doesn't mean that Lewis numbers didn't benefit from being in the right defense to max his ability and stats.


So what do you do with the two guards that have free shots at the LB?

Are you saying the DL in a 4-3 are not supposed to keep blockers off of the LB?
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Slaymont Harris


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to try to look up any sources right now, but I believe that tackles are still unofficial according to official NFL stats, even though they may have people tally stats for the website and such. Generally, if there are wide disparities in stats like tackles, assisted tackles, forced fumbles, etc., it's because there is not an "official" equivalent.
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51to54


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnyboy8102 wrote:
51to54 wrote:
johnnyboy8102 wrote:
51to54 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
I think in Urlacher's prime there was no defensive player that was as disruptive as him. His stats in a Tampa 2 are watered down, if he played in a system where he could have been the aggressor his stats would have been unbelievable. How many LB's were able to shadow Vick AND shut down a wide zone in coverage?

He was simply amazing to watch.

This and the Ray Lewis reference in another message.
The Ravens defense was built around Lewis. Two big DT's in front of him kept blockers off of him and allowed him to search and destroy. Urlacher had monster tackle stats when he had two big DT's in front of him earlier in his career.

Urlacher allowed Lovie's Cover Two to have a MLB that could drop into coverage like a safety and still cover sideline to sideline. Not great for stats because there is no intended receiver shutdown by deep dropping MLB stat.

Then Urlacher spent a few years (Briggs too) stuck so close to the line that their sideline to sideline ability was greatly diminished and 54 spent way too much time taking on 320 OT at the line of scrimmage, instead of doing a search and destroy.

I'd still give Lewis the edge, but with the caveat that if 54 had played in a defense built around him the margin would have been too slim to measure.


Lewis has played in a 3-4 since 2002 with the exception of 2005 (a season he played just 6 games in). He didn't have 2 Big DTs in front of him.

In fact, in 2003 (his 2nd DPOY season) he had Anthony Weaver , Kelly Gregg , Marques Douglas, Ma'ake Kemoeautu, and Riddick Parker playing in front of him. Not exactly the fearsome foursome.

Thanks for the correction with me showing my age with my early memories of Lewis, but the point still stands, perhaps moreso. The defense was built to his strength and boosted his stats. In a 3-4, the three Dlinemen's job is to keep blockers off of the LB's, especially the Mike LB.

Urlacher's strengths were used by often times being moved deeper off the line of scrimmage and away from tackles. And he was sorely misused for a few seasons.

Lot's of teams played the 3-4 over the years without having a ILB with Lewis numbers, but it doesn't mean that Lewis numbers didn't benefit from being in the right defense to max his ability and stats.


So what do you do with the two guards that have free shots at the LB?

Are you saying the DL in a 4-3 are not supposed to keep blockers off of the LB?

Not when they had Urlacher and Briggs lining up right off the Dlineman's hips they didn't and they did that for a couple of seasons.

While most defenses now throw enough curves to blur the line, the 4-3 wants a guy like Melton to penetrate and your DEs pressure the QB while a 3-4 traditionally uses bigger Dlinemen to take up blockers and you get your pressure from the LB.

You seem to have more at stake at this than I do so I'll punt and grant you that Lewis is the best MLB of his era, well, one that got off on a murder rap anyway.
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johnnyboy8102


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

51to54 wrote:
johnnyboy8102 wrote:
51to54 wrote:
johnnyboy8102 wrote:
51to54 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
I think in Urlacher's prime there was no defensive player that was as disruptive as him. His stats in a Tampa 2 are watered down, if he played in a system where he could have been the aggressor his stats would have been unbelievable. How many LB's were able to shadow Vick AND shut down a wide zone in coverage?

He was simply amazing to watch.

This and the Ray Lewis reference in another message.
The Ravens defense was built around Lewis. Two big DT's in front of him kept blockers off of him and allowed him to search and destroy. Urlacher had monster tackle stats when he had two big DT's in front of him earlier in his career.

Urlacher allowed Lovie's Cover Two to have a MLB that could drop into coverage like a safety and still cover sideline to sideline. Not great for stats because there is no intended receiver shutdown by deep dropping MLB stat.

Then Urlacher spent a few years (Briggs too) stuck so close to the line that their sideline to sideline ability was greatly diminished and 54 spent way too much time taking on 320 OT at the line of scrimmage, instead of doing a search and destroy.

I'd still give Lewis the edge, but with the caveat that if 54 had played in a defense built around him the margin would have been too slim to measure.


Lewis has played in a 3-4 since 2002 with the exception of 2005 (a season he played just 6 games in). He didn't have 2 Big DTs in front of him.

In fact, in 2003 (his 2nd DPOY season) he had Anthony Weaver , Kelly Gregg , Marques Douglas, Ma'ake Kemoeautu, and Riddick Parker playing in front of him. Not exactly the fearsome foursome.

Thanks for the correction with me showing my age with my early memories of Lewis, but the point still stands, perhaps moreso. The defense was built to his strength and boosted his stats. In a 3-4, the three Dlinemen's job is to keep blockers off of the LB's, especially the Mike LB.

Urlacher's strengths were used by often times being moved deeper off the line of scrimmage and away from tackles. And he was sorely misused for a few seasons.

Lot's of teams played the 3-4 over the years without having a ILB with Lewis numbers, but it doesn't mean that Lewis numbers didn't benefit from being in the right defense to max his ability and stats.


So what do you do with the two guards that have free shots at the LB?

Are you saying the DL in a 4-3 are not supposed to keep blockers off of the LB?

Not when they had Urlacher and Briggs lining up right off the Dlineman's hips they didn't and they did that for a couple of seasons.

While most defenses now throw enough curves to blur the line, the 4-3 wants a guy like Melton to penetrate and your DEs pressure the QB while a 3-4 traditionally uses bigger Dlinemen to take up blockers and you get your pressure from the LB.

You seem to have more at stake at this than I do so I'll punt and grant you that Lewis is the best MLB of his era, well, one that got off on a murder rap anyway.


I thought we were actually discussing football related topics. Didn't know things were going to get childish like that. What a joke.

I do not have a stake in anything. I just am correcting arguments that are incorrect (example: Lewis has always been in a 4-3 with two big DT in front of him).
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Badger75


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Urlacher Reply with quote

Walshy wrote:
Was Urlacher the best defensive playmaker in the NFL in his prime? I say yes. One of my favorite Bears to step on the field and IMO more game changing than Singletary.


LOL, what an over statement. Singletary is in the HoF. Urlacher will be too.

Game changer? Bill George and Butkus and Nitschke and Huff and Nobis and Buoniconti. Wink
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SDBEARSfan


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any one else feel like the organization is sorta disrespecting Lach by not just giving him an answer one way or the other?
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDBEARSfan wrote:
Any one else feel like the organization is sorta disrespecting Lach by not just giving him an answer one way or the other?


The are talking to him at the combine.
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topwop1


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDBEARSfan wrote:
Any one else feel like the organization is sorta disrespecting Lach by not just giving him an answer one way or the other?


Wish they would just get a relatively cheap 1 year deal done already and put that argument to rest. If Lach wants more than they're willing to pay him then it's simple...move on. The Bears have more leverage here IMO, especially considering that they can likely find an equal or better replacement to him in free agency this year.
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BearsFan


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnyboy8102 wrote:


The last problem with tackles is that some stat crews assigned by the NFL will award an assist on every play while others are very stingy and will only hand out a few. For example, the Bears nfl assigned stat crew credits 23 combined assists per game among the two teams. The Ravens nfl assigned stat crew credits 26 between the two teams. Both teams are on the lower end of that. On the flip side, the Bengals (6Cool, Patriots (57), and Redskins (70) are at the other extreme end. Players playing for those teams will get inflated tackle numbers in their 8 home games while visiting teams will get an uptick as well.


So what you are saying is that tackles are an inaccurate and highly subjective statistic, but there is not a possibility of any bias towards a particular player (good or bad) coming in to play......

Nit pick specifics of my argument. You may not agree with certain players I listed being better than Julius Peppers (we can't debate that in a separate thread), but I will stand by my main points:

1. Ray Lewis' tackling statistics are at best inaccurate (I would still argue padded), and do not accurately prove he is a better linebacker than anyone.

2. Ray Lewis played with better defensive players than Brian Urlacher did, which very likely had a positive impact on his play.

3. Urlacher had a very unique role in the Bears defense, and he played it better than anyone else did, or could have.

4. All of these things do not make him better than Ray Lewis, but are relevant and worth noting.

Was Ray Lewis great? Of course. But so was Urlacher, and it dissapoints me his greatness will be overlooked because he played in the same decade as Ray Lewis.
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johnnyboy8102


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BearsFan wrote:
johnnyboy8102 wrote:


The last problem with tackles is that some stat crews assigned by the NFL will award an assist on every play while others are very stingy and will only hand out a few. For example, the Bears nfl assigned stat crew credits 23 combined assists per game among the two teams. The Ravens nfl assigned stat crew credits 26 between the two teams. Both teams are on the lower end of that. On the flip side, the Bengals (6Cool, Patriots (57), and Redskins (70) are at the other extreme end. Players playing for those teams will get inflated tackle numbers in their 8 home games while visiting teams will get an uptick as well.


So what you are saying is that tackles are an inaccurate and highly subjective statistic, but there is not a possibility of any bias towards a particular player (good or bad) coming in to play......

Nit pick specifics of my argument. You may not agree with certain players I listed being better than Julius Peppers (we can't debate that in a separate thread), but I will stand by my main points:

1. Ray Lewis' tackling statistics are at best inaccurate (I would still argue padded), and do not accurately prove he is a better linebacker than anyone.

2. Ray Lewis played with better defensive players than Brian Urlacher did, which very likely had a positive impact on his play.

3. Urlacher had a very unique role in the Bears defense, and he played it better than anyone else did, or could have.

4. All of these things do not make him better than Ray Lewis, but are relevant and worth noting.

Was Ray Lewis great? Of course. But so was Urlacher, and it dissapoints me his greatness will be overlooked because he played in the same decade as Ray Lewis.


1. Is there any proof of this? Without any your opinion is worthless and a weak attempt to prove anything.

2. That is a very difficult thing to prove/disprove. However, the Ravens have played in a 4-3, a 3-4, a bit of the 46, and many hybrid style defenses the last 17 seasons with a plethora of defensive personnel. The ONLY constant has been Ray Lewis that entire time on a Defense that has ranked in the top 10 in Pts ELEVEN times (10 times in the Top-6). They have also ranked in the top 10 in Yards allowed TWELVE times (11 times top-6). Lewis was an AP 2nd Team All Pro in his 2nd season, DPOY in his 5th season & 8th seasons, an AP 1st Team All Pro in his 14th Season, and finally an AP 2nd Team All Pro in his 15th season. It must be an extreme coincidence that all the players around him managed to make him look good throughout his entire 17 season career.

3. Awesome. That led to 5 Defenses in his 13 seasons that were elite, 3 playoff wins, & and embarrassing defensive display in their SB in which the elite duo of Joseph Addai & Dominic Rhodes put up 190 yards rushing.

4. Lewis never played with a pass rusher anywhere near as dominant as Pepp or a LB who has played so well for so long (and is as durable) as Briggs. Lewis had a few guys come and go (Thomas, Boulware, Scott) or guys with inconsistent seasons (Suggs) but no one like Briggs.

Urlacher never had an Ngata but Ted Washington, Tommie Harris, and Henry Melton aren't/weren't exactly slouches either.

Lewis had 4 Total 1st Team All-Pro selections among his front 7 teammates in his 17 seasons (Ngata-2, Suggs-1, Thomas-1). Urlacher has had 3 1st Team All Pro Selections among his front 7 Teammates in his 13 seasons (Briggs-1, Washington-1, Pepp-1).

There is no reason to be disapointed that Urlacher will be overlooked (you said it, not me) due to playing while Lewis did.

Lewis' defenses were better & more consistent for a longer period of time despite changes in scheme, teammates, coaches, etc.

Lewis has more personal accolades: 13 pro bowls to Urlacher's 8 (don't care but some people do), 10 Total All Pro Selections to Urlacher's 5 Selections, 2 DPOY awards to Urlacher's 1, 2 Super Bowl rings to Urlacher's 0, and 1 SB MVP to Urlacher's 0.

The real guy that should be disapointed is Zach Thomas. He was a 7 Time All Pro (5 1st Teams) and no one seems to care or remember him because he played during the 2000s.

This Lewis/Urlacher debate has been debated ad nauseam on the main comparison page of this forum. It is always a 95% to 5% vote in Lewis' favor with the 5% in Urlacher's corner being people that are either Bear's fans or voting based on something that is impossible/very difficult to quantify like tackle stats or who had better teammates. All the objective data points in one direction though.

I don't care what side of the debate anyone is on. I came to the Bears board to get some news on Melton's status and came upon this thread. I simply was corrected any incorrect statements (Lewis played in a 4-3 all his career, tackle stats are tallied by the team on game day, etc). Everyone can clearly celebrate Urlacher's career without mentioning another player and/or making up fabricated arguments.

Regardless, I think he will resign for a 1 year deal.

Have a good one guys.
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slocie


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slaymont Harris wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
Why does anyone think Lewis' tackle stats have anything to do with his legacy? That's the absolute last reason why he's as highly regarded as he is, and it's last thing anyone should care about when judging his career.

Agreed. Tackle stats are worthless IMO, and really shouldn't be used to judge a player's greatness. We can celebrate Urlacher's greatness without trying to knock one of the greatest football players who ever lived.


Tackle stats are important. Without tackles, everyone keeps running like Forrest Gump lol.
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Slaymont Harris


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slocie wrote:
Slaymont Harris wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
Why does anyone think Lewis' tackle stats have anything to do with his legacy? That's the absolute last reason why he's as highly regarded as he is, and it's last thing anyone should care about when judging his career.

Agreed. Tackle stats are worthless IMO, and really shouldn't be used to judge a player's greatness. We can celebrate Urlacher's greatness without trying to knock one of the greatest football players who ever lived.


Tackle stats are important. Without tackles, everyone keeps running like Forrest Gump lol.

Well, tackling is VERY important, but the actual year to year stat keeping of tackles isn't for a variety of reasons. Just to make myself perfectly clear. Smile
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BearsFan


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanking you for coming on to this forum to set the record straight and present facts. I just had a couple things I would like to comment on.....



johnnyboy8102 wrote:
1. Is there any proof of this? Without any your opinion is worthless and a weak attempt to prove anything.


1. You may not agree with my suggestion of bias, but you yourself have admitted that statistics are decided by different officiating crews who have at best, differing opinions on what constitutes a tackle. This was the main point of my first argument. In a previous post you stated:

johnnyboy8102 wrote:
The last problem with tackles is that some stat crews assigned by the NFL will award an assist on every play while others are very stingy and will only hand out a few. For example, the Bears nfl assigned stat crew credits 23 combined assists per game among the two teams. The Ravens nfl assigned stat crew credits 26 between the two teams. Both teams are on the lower end of that. On the flip side, the Bengals (6, Patriots (57), and Redskins (70) are at the other extreme end. Players playing for those teams will get inflated tackle numbers in their 8 home games while visiting teams will get an uptick as well.


According to your statistics, you have one group of officials giving over twice as many assist tackles as another. This evidence supports a claim that, at the very least, is subjective and inaccurate making them difficult to use in an assessment of talent. You may not agree with this claim, but that does not mean it would be "worthless" and "weak."


johnnyboy8102 wrote:
4. Lewis never played with a pass rusher anywhere near as dominant as Pepp or a LB who has played so well for so long (and is as durable) as Briggs. Lewis had a few guys come and go (Thomas, Boulware, Scott) or guys with inconsistent seasons (Suggs) but no one like Briggs.


All of the information I will be using is from espn.

Both Terrell Suggs and Lance Briggs entered the NFL in 2003. From 2003 to 2011, Terell Suggs played in 141 games, while Lance Briggs played in 140. Even when Suggs had a freak injury that should have ended his season, he still came back after just 8 weeks (something nobody thought would be possible) and help lead his team to a Superbowl. Not sure how he has been inconsistent, or his career any less special than Lance Briggs.

Julius Peppers has been with the Bears for 3 seasons and he has been a dominant force. Many times I thought he was the best pass rusher in the game. During that time he has accumulated 30.5 sacks (espn). This is about 10 sacks a season. In those 3 years, Suggs had played 2.5 seasons. During that time, he has accumulated 27 sacks. This is an average of just under 11 sacks a season (10.Cool. I will cede that Julius Peppers and his statistics do not paint the whole picture, but I would also counter with the same could be said about former NFL Defensive POY Terrell Suggs, who is known for being a disruptive pass rusher.......


It is of little importance to me if you agree that Urlacher was a good player, or that he is in the ballpark of Ray Lewis. You clearly have strong opinions one way, as do I the opposite. Like you I am not concerned what side of the debate people stand on. As a matter of fact, I enjoy when people disagree with me, because then there is something to talk about on these boards. In truth I have much enjoyed are back and forth. Lets not pretend though either one of us hasn't turned our opinions into matter of fact statements. You corrections are appreciated, but it is not all you contributed to this discussion.
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