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Walshy


Joined: 10 Jan 2013
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Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:24 am    Post subject: Urlacher Reply with quote

Was Urlacher the best defensive playmaker in the NFL in his prime? I say yes. One of my favorite Bears to step on the field and IMO more game changing than Singletary.
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pigsooie5


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard for me to say because I'm only 20 years old but Urlacher is the reason I became a Bears fan to begin with. He grew up about 100 miles from my hometown in Lovington, New Mexico. The best Lobo player of all time IMO. As far as I'm concerned, he's the best Bears LB of all time as well.
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TexasBearsFan


Joined: 02 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: Urlacher Reply with quote

Walshy wrote:
Was Urlacher the best defensive playmaker in the NFL in his prime? I say yes. One of my favorite Bears to step on the field and IMO more game changing than Singletary.



Possibly. A lot of people would say that Ray Lewis overshadowed Brian for most of his career and that's an argument that can be made. People like Junior Seau and Zach Thomas were also very good for their respective teams during Brian's prime.
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SpeedKills24


Joined: 13 Feb 2013
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Location: Wisco
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Urlacher Reply with quote

TexasBearsFan wrote:
Walshy wrote:
Was Urlacher the best defensive playmaker in the NFL in his prime? I say yes. One of my favorite Bears to step on the field and IMO more game changing than Singletary.



Possibly. A lot of people would say that Ray Lewis overshadowed Brian for most of his career and that's an argument that can be made. People like Junior Seau and Zach Thomas were also very good for their respective teams during Brian's prime.


Although most think of Ray as the better Linebacker him and Urlacher are two totally differant players IMO. Urlcaher played safety in college and is arguably one of the GOAT pass coverage linebackers in NFL history. Ray is a more run stuffing type backer. I'm not saying each of them can't do both I'm saying each have their own unique skills. In this case Rays skills seemed to play more to the fan bases and in turn his play overshadowed Urlachers.
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in Urlacher's prime there was no defensive player that was as disruptive as him. His stats in a Tampa 2 are watered down, if he played in a system where he could have been the aggressor his stats would have been unbelievable. How many LB's were able to shadow Vick AND shut down a wide zone in coverage?

He was simply amazing to watch.
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51to54


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
I think in Urlacher's prime there was no defensive player that was as disruptive as him. His stats in a Tampa 2 are watered down, if he played in a system where he could have been the aggressor his stats would have been unbelievable. How many LB's were able to shadow Vick AND shut down a wide zone in coverage?

He was simply amazing to watch.

This and the Ray Lewis reference in another message.
The Ravens defense was built around Lewis. Two big DT's in front of him kept blockers off of him and allowed him to search and destroy. Urlacher had monster tackle stats when he had two big DT's in front of him earlier in his career.

Urlacher allowed Lovie's Cover Two to have a MLB that could drop into coverage like a safety and still cover sideline to sideline. Not great for stats because there is no intended receiver shutdown by deep dropping MLB stat.

Then Urlacher spent a few years (Briggs too) stuck so close to the line that their sideline to sideline ability was greatly diminished and 54 spent way too much time taking on 320 OT at the line of scrimmage, instead of doing a search and destroy.

I'd still give Lewis the edge, but with the caveat that if 54 had played in a defense built around him the margin would have been too slim to measure.


Last edited by 51to54 on Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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51to54


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pigsooie5 wrote:
It's hard for me to say because I'm only 20 years old but Urlacher is the reason I became a Bears fan to begin with. He grew up about 100 miles from my hometown in Lovington, New Mexico. The best Lobo player of all time IMO. As far as I'm concerned, he's the best Bears LB of all time as well.

Best Lobo, sure. Great story about the start of his senior year in HS after he started to really workout and grow that summer. First kickoff, he blows up a guy on the other team and then says something like "I've been working out all summer, can you tell?" while standing over the guy.

Best Bears MLB, not in my opinion. Butkus best MLB in league history and by a wide margin. Butkus was Urlacher and Lewis combined and he dominated playing for a crappy defense with a HS level offense to boot. Favorite things about Butkus were his going through his own defenders to get to ball carriers and he would tackle guys two or three times on the way down. He'd be fined on almost every tackle nowadays.

That being said, I'm on board with any Bears fan who thinks Urlacher is the best ever.
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BearsFan


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raw Lewis stats are grossly inaccurate. Any time he jumped on a pile after the whistle he was credited with the tackle. Tackling statistics are so skewed, it really is unfair to use them.

Ed Reed, Tony Siragusa, Haloti Ngata, Chris McAllister, Terrell Suggs and Peter Boulware are all arguably better than ANY player Urlacher paired with on defense, and the talent doesn't stop there. Rod Woodson, Sam Adams, Adalius Thomas, Bart Scott... you could go on for days. I always hear about how Ray Lewis makes everyone around him better, but maybe its the other way. Urlacher was asked to do way more on the field with less talent around him.

Is Brian Urlacher better than Ray Lewis? I don't know if I can objectively say that. I can affirm however that Urlacher was the best fit for what we asked him to do in our defense. In his prime I would not have taken anyone else. ANYONE.
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Superman(DH23)


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BearsFan wrote:
Raw Lewis stats are grossly inaccurate. Any time he jumped on a pile after the whistle he was credited with the tackle. Tackling statistics are so skewed, it really is unfair to use them.

Ed Reed, Tony Siragusa, Haloti Ngata, Chris McAllister, Terrell Suggs and Peter Boulware are all arguably better than ANY player Urlacher paired with on defense, and the talent doesn't stop there. Rod Woodson, Sam Adams, Adalius Thomas, Bart Scott... you could go on for days. I always hear about how Ray Lewis makes everyone around him better, but maybe its the other way. Urlacher was asked to do way more on the field with less talent around him.

Is Brian Urlacher better than Ray Lewis? I don't know if I can objectively say that. I can affirm however that Urlacher was the best fit for what we asked him to do in our defense. In his prime I would not have taken anyone else. ANYONE.
Chris McCallister wishes he was as good as Charles Tillman, and Peter Boulware, Tony Siragusa, Unck, and Bart Scott aren't fit to be in the same sentence as. Lance Briggs. Julius Peppers (another future HOFer) is quite possibly the best player either Lewis or Urlacher has ever played with. Let's not be like other fan bases on here and just make crap up. Its conceivable that the 2012 Bears defense had 4 future HOFers on it. Pep and Lach are virtual locks.
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johnnyboy8102


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

51to54 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
I think in Urlacher's prime there was no defensive player that was as disruptive as him. His stats in a Tampa 2 are watered down, if he played in a system where he could have been the aggressor his stats would have been unbelievable. How many LB's were able to shadow Vick AND shut down a wide zone in coverage?

He was simply amazing to watch.

This and the Ray Lewis reference in another message.
The Ravens defense was built around Lewis. Two big DT's in front of him kept blockers off of him and allowed him to search and destroy. Urlacher had monster tackle stats when he had two big DT's in front of him earlier in his career.

Urlacher allowed Lovie's Cover Two to have a MLB that could drop into coverage like a safety and still cover sideline to sideline. Not great for stats because there is no intended receiver shutdown by deep dropping MLB stat.

Then Urlacher spent a few years (Briggs too) stuck so close to the line that their sideline to sideline ability was greatly diminished and 54 spent way too much time taking on 320 OT at the line of scrimmage, instead of doing a search and destroy.

I'd still give Lewis the edge, but with the caveat that if 54 had played in a defense built around him the margin would have been too slim to measure.


Lewis has played in a 3-4 since 2002 with the exception of 2005 (a season he played just 6 games in). He didn't have 2 Big DTs in front of him.

In fact, in 2003 (his 2nd DPOY season) he had Anthony Weaver, Kelly Gregg, Marques Douglas, Ma'ake Kemoeautu, and Riddick Parker playing in front of him. Not exactly the fearsome foursome.
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johnnyboy8102


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BearsFan wrote:
Raw Lewis stats are grossly inaccurate. Any time he jumped on a pile after the whistle he was credited with the tackle. Tackling statistics are so skewed, it really is unfair to use them.

Ed Reed, Tony Siragusa, Haloti Ngata, Chris McAllister, Terrell Suggs and Peter Boulware are all arguably better than ANY player Urlacher paired with on defense, and the talent doesn't stop there. Rod Woodson, Sam Adams, Adalius Thomas, Bart Scott... you could go on for days. I always hear about how Ray Lewis makes everyone around him better, but maybe its the other way. Urlacher was asked to do way more on the field with less talent around him.

Is Brian Urlacher better than Ray Lewis? I don't know if I can objectively say that. I can affirm however that Urlacher was the best fit for what we asked him to do in our defense. In his prime I would not have taken anyone else. ANYONE.


Any proof of this? His home/away splits for his career only have a negligible difference.

Any stat keeper that was attempting to pad his stats did a very poor job. Especially when guys like London Fletcher and Jerod Mayo have night and day home/road splits the last few years.
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johnnyboy8102


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BearsFan wrote:
Raw Lewis stats are grossly inaccurate. Any time he jumped on a pile after the whistle he was credited with the tackle. Tackling statistics are so skewed, it really is unfair to use them.

Ed Reed, Tony Siragusa, Haloti Ngata, Chris McAllister, Terrell Suggs and Peter Boulware are all arguably better than ANY player Urlacher paired with on defense, and the talent doesn't stop there. Rod Woodson, Sam Adams, Adalius Thomas, Bart Scott... you could go on for days. I always hear about how Ray Lewis makes everyone around him better, but maybe its the other way. Urlacher was asked to do way more on the field with less talent around him.

Is Brian Urlacher better than Ray Lewis? I don't know if I can objectively say that. I can affirm however that Urlacher was the best fit for what we asked him to do in our defense. In his prime I would not have taken anyone else. ANYONE.


What happened when Bart Scott, Adalius Thomas, Ed Hartwell, etc all left Baltimore (playing with Lewis)?
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Superman(DH23)


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnyboy8102 wrote:
BearsFan wrote:
Raw Lewis stats are grossly inaccurate. Any time he jumped on a pile after the whistle he was credited with the tackle. Tackling statistics are so skewed, it really is unfair to use them.

Ed Reed, Tony Siragusa, Haloti Ngata, Chris McAllister, Terrell Suggs and Peter Boulware are all arguably better than ANY player Urlacher paired with on defense, and the talent doesn't stop there. Rod Woodson, Sam Adams, Adalius Thomas, Bart Scott... you could go on for days. I always hear about how Ray Lewis makes everyone around him better, but maybe its the other way. Urlacher was asked to do way more on the field with less talent around him.

Is Brian Urlacher better than Ray Lewis? I don't know if I can objectively say that. I can affirm however that Urlacher was the best fit for what we asked him to do in our defense. In his prime I would not have taken anyone else. ANYONE.


Any proof of this? His home/away splits for his career only have a negligible difference.

Any stat keeper that was attempting to pad his stats did a very poor job. Especially when guys like London Fletcher and Jerod Mayo have night and day home/road splits the last few years.
I'm not arguing BearsFan's point, but home/road splits have nothing to do w/ how skewed tackle stats are. Its not an official stat, its kept purely by the team themselves and any guy who touched the tackled player is credited w/ an assist. Its a very poor stat.
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51to54


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnyboy8102 wrote:
51to54 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
I think in Urlacher's prime there was no defensive player that was as disruptive as him. His stats in a Tampa 2 are watered down, if he played in a system where he could have been the aggressor his stats would have been unbelievable. How many LB's were able to shadow Vick AND shut down a wide zone in coverage?

He was simply amazing to watch.

This and the Ray Lewis reference in another message.
The Ravens defense was built around Lewis. Two big DT's in front of him kept blockers off of him and allowed him to search and destroy. Urlacher had monster tackle stats when he had two big DT's in front of him earlier in his career.

Urlacher allowed Lovie's Cover Two to have a MLB that could drop into coverage like a safety and still cover sideline to sideline. Not great for stats because there is no intended receiver shutdown by deep dropping MLB stat.

Then Urlacher spent a few years (Briggs too) stuck so close to the line that their sideline to sideline ability was greatly diminished and 54 spent way too much time taking on 320 OT at the line of scrimmage, instead of doing a search and destroy.

I'd still give Lewis the edge, but with the caveat that if 54 had played in a defense built around him the margin would have been too slim to measure.


Lewis has played in a 3-4 since 2002 with the exception of 2005 (a season he played just 6 games in). He didn't have 2 Big DTs in front of him.

In fact, in 2003 (his 2nd DPOY season) he had Anthony Weaver , Kelly Gregg , Marques Douglas, Ma'ake Kemoeautu, and Riddick Parker playing in front of him. Not exactly the fearsome foursome.

Thanks for the correction with me showing my age with my early memories of Lewis, but the point still stands, perhaps moreso. The defense was built to his strength and boosted his stats. In a 3-4, the three Dlinemen's job is to keep blockers off of the LB's, especially the Mike LB.

Urlacher's strengths were used by often times being moved deeper off the line of scrimmage and away from tackles. And he was sorely misused for a few seasons.

Lot's of teams played the 3-4 over the years without having a ILB with Lewis numbers, but it doesn't mean that Lewis numbers didn't benefit from being in the right defense to max his ability and stats.
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GaTechRavens


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does anyone think Lewis' tackle stats have anything to do with his legacy? That's the absolute last reason why he's as highly regarded as he is, and it's last thing anyone should care about when judging his career.
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