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Drafting Gore's Replacement
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rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 13362
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Walter Payton was 200 lbs. Barry Sanders was 202 lbs. Are you really arguing over 3 lbs?.


Seriously? I let this pass last time. But can't let it go again. So when I say "never" I mean never in the era in which they play. "Small" for a RB varies with the era a guy played in. When you mentioned these guys last time I looked up the stats for one of Payton's years. Don't remember which now but the weight of the defensive linemen of his team that year were 245, 250, 260, 260 and 265. The LBs were around 225 to 235. And I also looked up other RBs. I stopped looking after I found at least a dozen guys that had good running stats that year that were under 210. In other words to clear - Payton was not a small back by the standards of his era. On the contrary he was pretty average sized. Different eras. Apples and oranges my friend.

rudyZ wrote:
What a waste!! We should have taken Delone Carter (238 lbs), Bilal Powel (204 lbs) or Jamie Harper (233 lbs) instead. What was Baalke thinking?! Stupid man. Our 2011 draft class just keeps getting worse and worse...


Terrible logic. All NFL football players are males. Doesn't mean all males are NFL football players. I never said weight was the only thing that mattered. Nor did I ever say that every big back is good. Nort did I say some 200 pound backs aren't better than others. All I said is that I don't see Hunter as a good plan as a full time, multi season replacement for Gore because of his size.



In an earlier post, you mentioned that these undersized RBs only ever succeed when they have incredible speed. That's one of the reasons you used to discredit Hunter. So, do you mean that LaMike has a higher probability of becoming a feature back? He has is bigger than Warrick Dunn, actually bigger than Chris Johnson, and he has the required top speed. He's listed at 5'9" 195 lbs. What do you say about James? Remember, you said it yourself: the only smaller backs to succeed as feature backs have great speed. What other reason do you have to discredit him? Because, you know... you can't use size now, since he is fast.
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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 14410
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

48 1/2ers wrote:
seriously he's the exact size ray rice was when he was a rookie he's plenty big enough


That was his weight at the combine. His weight listed on the roster as a rookie was 205 and that year he rushed for 500 yards. After that his weight moved up to his current 212.

But, you might have missed my earlier post. When I looked at all the guys with over 600 yards the only backs under 210 had all run under 4.4 40's at the combine. What I said then was that truly exceptional speed can compensate for size and allow a small back to be successful. Rice just barely misses out on that 4.4 barrier as he ran a 4.42. Hunter's time was 4.53. What I've been saying is that a small back without truly exceptional skills is likely to be ordinary at best over the long run. At the outside maybe good. But Gore has put up over 1000 yards every year since he was a rookie except for his one rookie year when he only played 11 games and even then he didn't miss it by much. My point is that Hunter is a good (small) back. He is a nice complement to Gore, and can fill in for a while if an injury occurs. But the issue I was addressing was whether Hunter could be our Gore replacement, and the answer is still "no" for me.
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NcFinest9erFan


Joined: 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 3108
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not too worried about it.

1. I believe anyone can run behind our line

2. Starting RBs can be found in the first round, mid rounds, bottom rounds, and UDFA.

There are only a handful of teams who have first round picks as starting RBs.
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49ers Finest


Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 9339
Location: San Jose
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not too worrie about it. I think we need a bigger back, but not right now. And I would also like to see what Hampton offers.

I really wanted turbin last year though.
If we were to draft a gore replacement this year though, I like Taylor. But not with the value of where he will get picked.

I like shorter thick guys, like ray rice. Which hunter or James can become.
But Stacy from vandy is somebody I would like lake of we do decode to draft another back
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kingnothing


Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The team has more pressing needs than finding Frank Gore's replacement this offseason. Coming up just short of a championship we need guys that can start from day 1 or at least compete for a starting roster spot. I just do not see how drafting a feature back helps the team win a championship in the immediate future.
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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kingnothing wrote:
The team has more pressing needs than finding Frank Gore's replacement this offseason. Coming up just short of a championship we need guys that can start from day 1 or at least compete for a starting roster spot. I just do not see how drafting a feature back helps the team win a championship in the immediate future.


I agree with this. But one thing this team has been missing for a few years now is a good power back we can count on in short yardage situtations. We have pretty much sucked for some time in short yardage situations. Every little thing counts when you're a SB contender. So I'd be interested in a guy like that, especially if he has the potential to become a good every down back some day ... Leveon Bell would be a great addition to the team, and I think make us a little bit better even this year.
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oldman9er


Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 40144
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
We have pretty much sucked for some time in short yardage situations.


I don't think the problem was the RBs... at least, not most of the time. Even the best pounders are not running through a solid brick wall, or a quick penetrating DL/LB often. We boast of our OL run blocking as great... and at times they can be... but they are rather Jekyll and Hyde in many games. Gore can churn out the tough yards... even Hunter and big Dix don't suck as badly at it as some fans think. It's just easier to blame the backs for not making something outta nothing.

... and aside from OL blocks, how about the predictability of when we are gonna pound it between the tackles? Defenses see big Tuku, big Leonard D, and Kilgore trot out there, and well.. it's no big wonder why that 3rd and 2 failed. Especially if we don't get the play in early and defenses know the second we will snap the ball... so they can better time their attack of the LOS.
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rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldman9er wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
We have pretty much sucked for some time in short yardage situations.


I don't think the problem was the RBs... at least, not most of the time. Even the best pounders are not running through a solid brick wall, or a quick penetrating DL/LB often. We boast of our OL run blocking as great... and at times they can be... but they are rather Jekyll and Hyde in many games. Gore can churn out the tough yards... even Hunter and big Dix don't suck as badly at it as some fans think. It's just easier to blame the backs for not making something outta nothing.

... and aside from OL blocks, how about the predictability of when we are gonna pound it between the tackles? Defenses see big Tuku, big Leonard D, and Kilgore trot out there, and well.. it's no big wonder why that 3rd and 2 failed. Especially if we don't get the play in early and defenses know the second we will snap the ball... so they can better time their attack of the LOS.



We're not really good at running between the tackles. Even with Gore. What we're good at his running behind the tackles, and outside. All of our successful inside runs have an element of laterality. The strength of our OL is in movement and angles, not exactly at man to man blocking (I'm looking at you, Jonathan Goodwin. So we're not exactly good at bang-bang runs where every OL pushes straight forward. We have to move to the outside to open up creases inside, and that's where Gore uses his cuts to make something happen. This year, he has side-stepped more than ever in his career, because there were very few holes straight ahead. It's normal than when we get in obvious short-yardage running situation, the LBs just clog the middle. We've had more success running outside on short yardage than inside, because of it.

My solution isn't necessarily a bigger back. It would be to replace Goodwin with a stouter option, and vary our plays more, passing for first downs, or simply using Kap's legs more. If you have him on a roll-out, stretching the defense horizontally, I'm sure he can find a crease to gain two yards. If we do that often enough, it will soften up the middle.
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kingnothing


Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
kingnothing wrote:
The team has more pressing needs than finding Frank Gore's replacement this offseason. Coming up just short of a championship we need guys that can start from day 1 or at least compete for a starting roster spot. I just do not see how drafting a feature back helps the team win a championship in the immediate future.


I agree with this. But one thing this team has been missing for a few years now is a good power back we can count on in short yardage situtations. We have pretty much sucked for some time in short yardage situations. Every little thing counts when you're a SB contender. So I'd be interested in a guy like that, especially if he has the potential to become a good every down back some day ... Leveon Bell would be a great addition to the team, and I think make us a little bit better even this year.


The team can use Gore, Dixon, and or Miller in short yardage situations. Plus, we have the read option, which churns out yardage. Also, I would give Hunter a shot at being a feature back before drafting another rb. Hunter has shown flashes of being a capable back.

Drafting a rookie rb does not guarantee he sees the field this season behind Gore, Hunter, James, and Dixon. Unless, he contributes on special teams. RB is one of the deepest positions on the team. So, unless an Adrian Peterson, Barry Sanders, or Jim Brown is in this draft, I will pass on RBs.
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49ers Finest


Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 9339
Location: San Jose
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

christine michael jumped a 43 vert!

Christine Michael
Texas A&M
5-10
220
4.54 off 40
1.51 10 split
27 reps
43 vert
125 broad
9.38

thats impressive
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GoLdRuSh


Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1757
Location: Sun DieGo
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

49ers Finest wrote:
christine michael jumped a 43 vert!

Christine Michael
Texas A&M
5-10
220
4.54 off 40
1.51 10 split
27 reps
43 vert
125 broad
9.38

thats impressive


Really hope he does bad in the interviews so we can get him later in the draft. He already has a stigma of a diva, but I think JH can fix that.
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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 14410
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldman9er wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
We have pretty much sucked for some time in short yardage situations.


I don't think the problem was the RBs... at least, not most of the time. Even the best pounders are not running through a solid brick wall, or a quick penetrating DL/LB often. We boast of our OL run blocking as great... and at times they can be... but they are rather Jekyll and Hyde in many games. Gore can churn out the tough yards... even Hunter and big Dix don't suck as badly at it as some fans think. It's just easier to blame the backs for not making something outta nothing.

... and aside from OL blocks, how about the predictability of when we are gonna pound it between the tackles? Defenses see big Tuku, big Leonard D, and Kilgore trot out there, and well.. it's no big wonder why that 3rd and 2 failed. Especially if we don't get the play in early and defenses know the second we will snap the ball... so they can better time their attack of the LOS.


There are a lot of things we all believe here without much evidence to back it up. I've never seen any stats on what percentage of our short yardage plays are successful. Just my impression that it's not very good, but maybe I just remember them more than the successful plays.

And yes I agree absolutely with your point. I hate the jumbo. Put 3 or 4 WR's out wide and that will take a whole bunch of guys out of range for making a tackle on a short yardage play without even having to block them. Or just run our normal offense. But all those big bodies just allows the defense to put a whole lot of big bodies up at the line and the result pretty often is just a pile of big guys with nowhere for our RB to go.

To me it's a lot like when Norris used to try to lead Gore through a hole but was so slow all he did was block up the hole himself. I wanted Norris to go, and I want the jumbo to go.
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rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 13362
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

49ers Finest wrote:
christine michael jumped a 43 vert!

Christine Michael
Texas A&M
5-10
220
4.54 off 40
1.51 10 split
27 reps
43 vert
125 broad
9.38

thats impressive



He was my secret darkhorse late round pick-up. When I read that we interviewed Luke Joeckel, I wondered why we wanted to talk to a guy we have no chance of drafting. The only reason I could think of is that we are interested in one of his teammates.
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FG21_PW52


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lattimore or Stepfan Taylor. I think these 2 are pretty equal, Lattimore may be a bit faster but we'll have to see after the injury. These are really the only 2 I want...
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Kikuchiyo


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FG21_PW52 wrote:
Lattimore or Stepfan Taylor. I think these 2 are pretty equal, Lattimore may be a bit faster but we'll have to see after the injury. These are really the only 2 I want...


Expand your horizons. There's a lot of really good backs in this draft. Kniles Davis is tearing up the combine like most thought he would. He was a projected first round pick last year before Arkansas imploded this year and killed just about everyone on that team's draft stock (look where Tyler Wilson was rated last year). Joseph Randle out of Ok st has excellent vision and burst. Zac Stacy out of Vanderbilt looks like a Frank Gore clone. Etc. Etc.

My point is RBs are a dime a dozen and you shouldn't get too hung up on just one or two (although there's certainly nothing wrong with having a draft crush. we all do). There are a lot of running backs in this draft that can have successful careers (especially behind our o-line).
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