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Mitchell Schwartz top rookie lineman?
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

H2ThaIzzo wrote:
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
Agree with what everyone is saying about Schwartz. I was definitely worried about the pick when we made it. He looked awful the first few games too. He seems to have made great strides and I can see him getting even better.

I have said on multiple occasions over the years that games are won in the trenches. If the staff feels that Warmack is the best player for this team when we pick, I am ok with that.

I would personally rather see a Demontre Moore fall to us. However, picking a stud O-lineman is never a bad idea in my opinion.


specially when the rookie wage scale now i dont care if we pick him at 6. I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.

could you imagine how much better Joe Thomas could be with a legit LG next to him. We remember how good he was when Steinbach was his guard. It would his job a lot easier being able to trust his LG even more


Good points buno. But don't forget what made Steinbach so good was his ability to pull. More athleticism at the OG spot seems to be what we are looking for and you don't need to spend a 1st round pick to get it.

We also don't know how much Pinkston, Greco, and Lavaou were asked to pull, nor do we know how good (athletic) they can really be with a healthy Richardson and another year of experience under all of their belts--and playing in a less complex offense.

It just seems like overkill to draft an "elite" OG to a line that already has 3 very good (and possibly "elite") starters on it. I'm sure that every championship line had a few spots not filled by players like Thomas, Mack, and Schwartz.

Let's load up the talent where we actually have none instead. It's rather important to have at least 2 starting CBs, a viable starting FS, at least 2 good pass rushers, at least 2 good starting DEs, and a starting TE.

The resources to fill these holes are very limited; lets' not build on a strength at the expense of having less viable starters.
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big poppa pump


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
buno67 wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
Agree with what everyone is saying about Schwartz. I was definitely worried about the pick when we made it. He looked awful the first few games too. He seems to have made great strides and I can see him getting even better.

I have said on multiple occasions over the years that games are won in the trenches. If the staff feels that Warmack is the best player for this team when we pick, I am ok with that.

I would personally rather see a Demontre Moore fall to us. However, picking a stud O-lineman is never a bad idea in my opinion.


specially when the rookie wage scale now i dont care if we pick him at 6. I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.

could you imagine how much better Joe Thomas could be with a legit LG next to him. We remember how good he was when Steinbach was his guard. It would his job a lot easier being able to trust his LG even more


Good points buno. But don't forget what made Steinbach so good was his ability to pull. More athleticism at the OG spot seems to be what we are looking for and you don't need to spend a 1st round pick to get it.

We also don't know how much Pinkston, Greco, and Lavaou were asked to pull, nor do we know how good (athletic) they can really be with a healthy Richardson and another year of experience under all of their belts--and playing in a less complex offense.

It just seems like overkill to draft an "elite" OG to a line that already has 3 very good (and possibly "elite") starters on it. I'm sure that every championship line had a few spots not filled by players like Thomas, Mack, and Schwartz.

Let's load up the talent where we actually have none instead. It's rather important to have at least 2 starting CBs, a viable starting FS, at least 2 good pass rushers, at least 2 good starting DEs, and a starting TE.

The resources to fill these holes are very limited; lets' not build on a strength at the expense of having less viable starters.


Agree with all these points. I would rather get an elite OLB pass rusher and or CB. I look at these positions as being more of a need to fill. I am not quite as optimistic as you seem to be in regards to finding those Guards on our own roster. We shall see.

What the Browns do in FA should give us a better idea at where they may look to in the draft.
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Fullback40


Joined: 30 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
Agree with what everyone is saying about Schwartz. I was definitely worried about the pick when we made it. He looked awful the first few games too. He seems to have made great strides and I can see him getting even better.

I have said on multiple occasions over the years that games are won in the trenches. If the staff feels that Warmack is the best player for this team when we pick, I am ok with that.

I would personally rather see a Demontre Moore fall to us. However, picking a stud O-lineman is never a bad idea in my opinion.


specially when the rookie wage scale now i dont care if we pick him at 6. I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.

could you imagine how much better Joe Thomas could be with a legit LG next to him. We remember how good he was when Steinbach was his guard. It would his job a lot easier being able to trust his LG even more



It's like people forget how awesome our OL/Offense was with elite guard play. Remember when our OL made Hillis into a monster? Remember when 51 year old Jamal Lewis went HAM on fools in 2007? Remember having insane amounts of time in the pocket?


And no, Greco/Pinkston/Luavao all are stop gap starters. None of them can be trusted.

Greco---Solid pass blocker, good on the move...could be our worst starting guard and I'd be okay with it. Mediocrity at it's best.

Luavao---Slow, gets no push whatsoever in the trenches in the run game. Decent pass blocker, but a liability in the run game...despite his fat arse.

Pinkston---Meh...need him to come back healthy. And even if he does, he's an average starting guard. Not much push in the run game.
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fullback40 wrote:
buno67 wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
Agree with what everyone is saying about Schwartz. I was definitely worried about the pick when we made it. He looked awful the first few games too. He seems to have made great strides and I can see him getting even better.

I have said on multiple occasions over the years that games are won in the trenches. If the staff feels that Warmack is the best player for this team when we pick, I am ok with that.

I would personally rather see a Demontre Moore fall to us. However, picking a stud O-lineman is never a bad idea in my opinion.


specially when the rookie wage scale now i dont care if we pick him at 6. I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.

could you imagine how much better Joe Thomas could be with a legit LG next to him. We remember how good he was when Steinbach was his guard. It would his job a lot easier being able to trust his LG even more



It's like people forget how awesome our OL/Offense was with elite guard play. Remember when our OL made Hillis into a monster? Remember when 51 year old Jamal Lewis went HAM on fools in 2007? Remember having insane amounts of time in the pocket?


And no, Greco/Pinkston/Luavao all are stop gap starters. None of them can be trusted.

Greco---Solid pass blocker, good on the move...could be our worst starting guard and I'd be okay with it. Mediocrity at it's best.

Luavao---Slow, gets no push whatsoever in the trenches in the run game. Decent pass blocker, but a liability in the run game...despite his fat arse.

Pinkston---Meh...need him to come back healthy. And even if he does, he's an average starting guard. Not much push in the run game.


So you're saying that Lewis rushed for over 2300 yards and 13 TDs in 2 years (avg of 1150 yards and 6.5 TDs per season) BECAUSE of linemen named Hank Fraley, Seth McKinney, Kevin Shaffer, and Rex Hadnot who teamed with Steinbach, Thomas, and occasionally Tucker--but an injured Richardson was limited to only 952 yards and 11 TDs in one season BECAUSE of Thomas, Greco, Mack, Lauvao, Schwartz and sometimes Pinkston.

And you're basing this opinion on your belief that none of those guys that blocked for Lewis would fall into the "average", "meh", or "mediocrity" categories that you claim Pinkston, Lauvao, and Greco fall into.

You further stress your belief in these other linemen's prowess by pointing out that Lewis was 28 in 2007 and 29 in 2008 and insinuating that his age made him incapable of achieving what he actually achieved without the help of said linemen.

And apparently you do not think that Lewis' success in 2007 should be attributed in any way to the explosive passing game that was present that year.

Do I have all of that right?

Perhaps you want to see which "elite" guards were playing when Lewis rushed 83 times for 299 yards (3.6 avg) in 8 of his first 9 games as a Brown. He did have the 216 yard game against the Bengals in the other game behind those elite names like Shaffer, Fraley, and McKinney...and he did have that 4 TD game against the Seahawks where the elite blocking allowed him 37 yards on 20 attempts (1.9 yards per carry).

But yeah, I think you were referring to Tucker and Steinbach at guard. They started 8 games together in 2007 and Lewis rushed for 824 yards (including the 163 yards in the Buffalo "snow bowl" game--where the elite blocking made the field slippery for the defense) and went all HAM for 3 rushing TDs over those 8 games.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.


oh i know but it would be nice for hopefully our new pass happpy shotgun offense to have the leftside on complete lockdown. Having a legit leftside would make Weeden/or whoever is the QB and TRich a lot happier
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.


oh i know but it would be nice for hopefully our new pass happpy shotgun offense to have the leftside on complete lockdown. Having a legit leftside would make Weeden/or whoever is the QB and TRich a lot happier


Wouldn't help as much as having a pass-rushing threat so the defense could get off the field on 3rd down. Or even as much as another lockdown corner would, for the same reason.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.


oh i know but it would be nice for hopefully our new pass happpy shotgun offense to have the leftside on complete lockdown. Having a legit leftside would make Weeden/or whoever is the QB and TRich a lot happier


Wouldn't help as much as having a pass-rushing threat so the defense could get off the field on 3rd down. Or even as much as another lockdown corner would, for the same reason.


That's your opinion...you don't know that.

How about the O being able to keep the D off the field and rested because it moves the chains and, God willing, scores some points?
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.


oh i know but it would be nice for hopefully our new pass happpy shotgun offense to have the leftside on complete lockdown. Having a legit leftside would make Weeden/or whoever is the QB and TRich a lot happier


Wouldn't help as much as having a pass-rushing threat so the defense could get off the field on 3rd down. Or even as much as another lockdown corner would, for the same reason.


That's your opinion...you don't know that.

How about the O being able to keep the D off the field and rested because it moves the chains and, God willing, scores some points?


Ok, and how many points are you expecting an OG to score? How many 1st downs do they run for, throw for, or catch a pass for?

And how is the number of points needed to win affected by a defense that has trouble getting off the field?
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm about as big of a proponent for offensive lineman as they come, but I can certainly see the argument against Warmack. I personally would be "okay" if that is where we go with our pick, but it certainly wouldn't be my 1st choice. We have already invested enough (and not too much) early round picks on the line, and I'm glad they worked out but we have the most important (center/tackles) parts already established.

I would like to see a big road grader at right guard, but I don't think we need to use a high draft pick for that. I think we need the most help on the defensive side of the ball, LB, CB and safety. The switch back to the 3-4 (still not a fan) tells me that we will use the draft for missing pieces on that side of the ball.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.


oh i know but it would be nice for hopefully our new pass happpy shotgun offense to have the leftside on complete lockdown. Having a legit leftside would make Weeden/or whoever is the QB and TRich a lot happier


Wouldn't help as much as having a pass-rushing threat so the defense could get off the field on 3rd down. Or even as much as another lockdown corner would, for the same reason.


That's your opinion...you don't know that.

How about the O being able to keep the D off the field and rested because it moves the chains and, God willing, scores some points?


Ok, and how many points are you expecting an OG to score? How many 1st downs do they run for, throw for, or catch a pass for?

And how is the number of points needed to win affected by a defense that has trouble getting off the field?


who knows how many points it could lead to...Guard play was very bad for the browns last year. Saying we have improved guards could lead to an improved offense. better blocking means more successful run pass plays, and more successful plays you have the more chances you have at scoring points.

If the defense is having trouble getting off the field lets help them stay off the field but being able to sustain longer drives. Browns have a very weak interior offensive line because of the guards. Improve guard play can lead to improvement. Better run blocking means better rushing attack, better rushing attack means a better play action, better play action means DBs break late, DBs break late leads to open recievers, open recievers can lead to touchdown. It could have a nice trickle down affect on the team.

Open recievers getting TDs means less pressure on the defense to hold the opposing team from scoirng, less pressure on the defense the more the defense can attack, the more the defense can attack the more turnovers they can force, the more turnovers they force the more chances our offense gets, more chances for the offense means more points...and no we have just gone full circle.

if he is BPA you take him but if he isnt we better not reach for him. if the stud defensive players were drafted the first 5picks a long with Geno, we take the guard IMO
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.


oh i know but it would be nice for hopefully our new pass happpy shotgun offense to have the leftside on complete lockdown. Having a legit leftside would make Weeden/or whoever is the QB and TRich a lot happier


Wouldn't help as much as having a pass-rushing threat so the defense could get off the field on 3rd down. Or even as much as another lockdown corner would, for the same reason.


That's your opinion...you don't know that.

How about the O being able to keep the D off the field and rested because it moves the chains and, God willing, scores some points?


Ok, and how many points are you expecting an OG to score? How many 1st downs do they run for, throw for, or catch a pass for?

And how is the number of points needed to win affected by a defense that has trouble getting off the field?


I think Ditch is perfectly capable of answering for/defending his opinion, and probably not twisting comments in the process.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
Entropy wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.


oh i know but it would be nice for hopefully our new pass happpy shotgun offense to have the leftside on complete lockdown. Having a legit leftside would make Weeden/or whoever is the QB and TRich a lot happier


Wouldn't help as much as having a pass-rushing threat so the defense could get off the field on 3rd down. Or even as much as another lockdown corner would, for the same reason.


That's your opinion...you don't know that.

How about the O being able to keep the D off the field and rested because it moves the chains and, God willing, scores some points?


Ok, and how many points are you expecting an OG to score? How many 1st downs do they run for, throw for, or catch a pass for?

And how is the number of points needed to win affected by a defense that has trouble getting off the field?


who knows how many points it could lead to...Guard play was very bad for the browns last year. Saying we have improved guards could lead to an improved offense. better blocking means more successful run pass plays, and more successful plays you have the more chances you have at scoring points.

If the defense is having trouble getting off the field lets help them stay off the field but being able to sustain longer drives. Browns have a very weak interior offensive line because of the guards. Improve guard play can lead to improvement. Better run blocking means better rushing attack, better rushing attack means a better play action, better play action means DBs break late, DBs break late leads to open recievers, open recievers can lead to touchdown. It could have a nice trickle down affect on the team.

Open recievers getting TDs means less pressure on the defense to hold the opposing team from scoirng, less pressure on the defense the more the defense can attack, the more the defense can attack the more turnovers they can force, the more turnovers they force the more chances our offense gets, more chances for the offense means more points...and no we have just gone full circle.

if he is BPA you take him but if he isnt we better not reach for him. if the stud defensive players were drafted the first 5picks a long with Geno, we take the guard IMO


Agree
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Fullback40


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
buno67 wrote:
I want BPA, if Womack is BPA then you take him.


Floyd "Porkchop" Womack is retired. Well, don't know if he's officially filed the paperwork, but he hasn't played since 2011. Don't think he'll be BPA.

Warmack is the top rated player in the draft by many accounts. If he played on the defensive side of the ball, he would go 1st overall and very few would question it.

I just have higher expectations for the 6th pick in the draft than a guard. Even if he's considered one of the best guards in the league by the end of his rookie year.


oh i know but it would be nice for hopefully our new pass happpy shotgun offense to have the leftside on complete lockdown. Having a legit leftside would make Weeden/or whoever is the QB and TRich a lot happier


Wouldn't help as much as having a pass-rushing threat so the defense could get off the field on 3rd down. Or even as much as another lockdown corner would, for the same reason.


That's your opinion...you don't know that.

How about the O being able to keep the D off the field and rested because it moves the chains and, God willing, scores some points?


Ok, and how many points are you expecting an OG to score? How many 1st downs do they run for, throw for, or catch a pass for?

And how is the number of points needed to win affected by a defense that has trouble getting off the field?




LOL. You are right. We don't need an offensive line. They don't run for 1st downs or catch passes. So they should just be practice squad guys based on that logic.


Without an OL, you don't have an offense. Simple as that. With an elite OL, you are in control of the football game. You can dictate pace and tempo. You can call any type of plays you want. If you have a worthless OL, you can't run deep patterns. You can't count on your RB's to pick up clutch 1st downs.


Remember last season? When we had about 3,000 3rd and short situations? Remember when we would run it and get creamed? Remember punting as a result of this? Remember passing in 3rd and inches because our guard play was so pathetic that they couldn't be trusted to get a few inches of push? Because I do...and it was embarrassing.

I want the identity of a team who can still line up in the I formation and pummel teams into submission. When NFL front sevens get smaller, I want our offense to get bigger and more physical.

Also, a guard plays every snap. Every down. Has more of an impact than people who haven't coached/played football understand. When there is no re-establishment of the LOS by your OL, the play is dead. We need to upgrade our interior OL if we want Richardson to look like an elite RB.

If we want an average running game, go ahead and start Pinkston/Luavao.



And btw, your post about the Jamal Lewis years and the OL he had? I will take those guards in terms of run blocking EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK over the bags of [inappropriate/removed] we had in there last year.
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