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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 3135
Location: Nawlins
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:54 am    Post subject: Not yo daddy’s three-Fo! Reply with quote

The more research I do on the brand of defense were building, the more I come to realize how wrong I am at times!!!


Sean Payton on new defensive scheme

Quote:
I think the way that we're going to run this defense and the type of 3-4 that we're running will be such that you saw in Dallas or Houston. There will be some under defensive principles to it. Some reduction, which means that the left guard or weak guard for the offense will be covered at times, and I think that will help a guy like Jon Vilma as opposed to the traditional two-gap 3-4 front that many Giants fans knew back when Bill Parcells was there.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/nfl-rapidreports/21697126/payton-jonathan-vilma-can-make-switch-to-34

The first thing that stands out about this quote is how he eludes to the fact that this scheme will resemble the Cowboys & Texans defensive scheme with under principles to it.

This is a major hint of what we should expect to see on the field next season as far as alignments and personnel. Check this statement from an article explaining how the Cowboys defense was operated under Wade Phillips and how Houston’s defense is now utilized. This is also very much how Rob Ryan operated the Dallas defense during his time there and will bring the same concepts to New Orleans.

Quote:
Although DeMarcus Ware is almost always in a two-point stance, he’ll line up in an 8-technique position while the three down linemen are shaded to the gaps, making it a one-gap system. Ware is in a position to explode off the snap and blow past slower linemen, while Jay Ratliff on the interior of the line can also provide pressure from up the middle. It’s similar to a 4-3 “over front” with Ware in a two-point stance. It essentially allows the Cowboys to kind of “cheat” personnel wise. They don’t need ideally sized 3-4 linemen because they’re shaded to gaps. They don’t need ideally sized 3-4 ILBs because the linebackers shift with the defensive line. It’s a defense designed for speed and to counteract offensive speed, one that can blitz from the second level or drop the second level into coverage to prevent big plays.

http://www.fantasyguru.com/football/subscribers/articles/8-5-11defense.php

Let me break this quote down into three parts...

Quote:
Although DeMarcus Ware is almost always in a two-point stance, he’ll line up in an 8-technique position while the three down linemen are shaded to the gaps, making it a one-gap system.


Why is this important?

It basically states that the front is a simple shift with 43 principles, meaning that our current personnel will be a good fit for this particular 34 look. It also tells me that if the Saints coaching staff don’t believe either Junior Galette or Martez Wilson can play the D-Ware role then they better go out and find someone who can because that position is the key to this defensive alignment.

Quote:
It’s similar to a 4-3 “over front” with Ware in a two-point stance. It essentially allows the Cowboys to kind of “cheat” personnel wise. They don’t need ideally sized 3-4 linemen because they’re shaded to gaps. They don’t need ideally sized 3-4 ILBs because the linebackers shift with the defensive line.


This quote is the reasoning behind Payton wanting Vilma and Smith to restructure and goes back to his quote at the top of the post about how he does see roles for both in this defense. The thing is none of us were wrong but yet none of us were right either. This is not the 34 defense that Vilma played in under Mangini where his size was an issue. This is the reason Rob Ryan was the perfect hire for this team and its personnel. The one thing we all hated about Steve Spagnuolo was his inability to build a defense around the talents of his personnel, well this hybrid 34 defense does exactly that. We need to stop thinking 1 gap verses 2 gap. This defensive scheme will actually have more 43 principles to it than anything. The standard thought process when thinking of 34 prospects does not apply to us and this scheme. This is a hybrid of many different parts… 34 1 gap, 43 over front & the famed 46 Bear.

Quote:
It’s a defense designed for speed and to counteract offensive speed, one that can blitz from the second level or drop the second level into coverage to prevent big plays.


Here’s your money quote!

Sean Payton said the read option kept him up at night. Likely thinking of the best way to stop it, and in my opinion this scheme was his best answer to that. Counteract offensive speed that statement applies to the quarterback position now. This scheme give the Saints the best possible chance to get as many athletes on the field as possible regardless of size, height or scheme fit. It’s a defense that is to be molded and tweaked in order to combat the new aged offensive schemes coming into the league.

The game is changing and it looks like Sean Payton is preparing himself and his team for it.

This is not your daddy's 34!



WHODAT
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Location: Nawlins
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on my research, here is a breakdown of how I see the defensive depth chart looking for the Saints as of now:

LE: Jordan, Hicks, Walker
NT: Bunkley, Hicks
RE: Smith, Johnson


Jordan is the starter at LE, basically playing more as a DT in a 43 front here which is where he generated most of his pressure in 2012. Bunkley is the 2 down run stuffer inside with Hicks backing up Jordan at LE and coming in at NT in passing situations for Bunkley. Smith retains his RE role with less responsibilities on setting the edge, Johnson backs up Smith but if Smith is not retained, this position becomes a major priority in FA or the draft.

SOLB: Hawthorne, Wilson
WILB: Vilma, Casillas
MILB: Lofton, Chamberlin
WOLB: Galette


Hawthorne is a valuable 2 down Sam backer with the ability to kick inside and backup either inside positions. Wilson would come in on 3rd downs and passing situations. Remember, this scheme has many 43 principles to it and this is one of them. Vilma is at the WILB spot which in this scheme is actually like playing MLB in a 43 front, Vilma should excel. Casillas backs up Vilma, if anyone remembers, Casillas play improved as Spagnuolo moved him inside. Lofton fills the role at MILB where his stout frame and physical play will serve him well. Chamberlin backs up Lofton due to his same type of physical play but this is really not a good fit and the Saints could look to add a better option behind Lofton and part ways with Chamberlin this offseason. Now to the main position of this unit, the WOLB. For now the only player on this roster I see that could honestly play it is Junior Galette but do the coaching staff see him as a solid backup to the position or as an impact starter… I think Galette will be a backup again. The Saints will look to add some one explosive and athletic to this position. This is where the 15th overall selection will likely find his home for the Saints. Prospects like Jarvis Jones, Dion Jordan, Barkevious Mingo and Ezekiel Ansah would all fit perfectly here and I expect the Saints to make sure they land one of those players in the drafts top round in April.

CB: Greer, White
FS: Jenkins, Bush
SS: Harper, Quddus
CB: Robinson, Mack


The secondary looks pretty much the same but I’m guessing this is where money will be spent in free agency this offseason. For now, Greer & Robinson return as the starting corners but Greer would benefit from a reduced role to the nickel back where he excelled at in Buffalo. White could start opposite Robinson if he impresses Ryan on tape but it’s more likely the Saints will target a starting corner in free agency. Mack provides solid depth behind Greer at the Nickel. At safety and to the chagrin of a lot of Saints fans, Jenkins returns as the starting FS and I don’t see that changing. The starting job at the SS spot is a different story all together though. The question will be, what does Rob Ryan think of Roman Harper? He’s the wildcard in my opinion. For now I’ll put him back as the starting SS with Ryan thinking he can get him back to his 2011 form but if another/better opportunity arises at the position or if Ryan prefers Quddus more than Harper could be shipped out. Bush provides good depth at both safety positions.


Predictions

Free Agency:
1. The Saints sign a starting corner to play opposite Robinson. Miami’s Sean Smith, Pittsburgh’s Keenan Lewis, Jacksonville's Derek Cox, Dallas’s Mike Jenkins and Baltimore’s Cary Williams are all scheme fits.

2. Rob Ryan may or may not stick with Roman Harper at strong safety but will look for insurance behind him if so. Dallas’s Charlie Peprah would be a great fit at an even better price and already is well versed in Ryan’s scheme.


NFL Draft:
1. The Saints will go into the draft with the mindset that they must come away with either Oregon’s Dion Jordan, Louisiana State’s Barkevious Mingo or BYU’s Ezekiel Ansah to play the joker position and be the Saints version of D-Ware. Don’t be surprised if the Saints get aggressive and trade up to ensure one of these players if the draft begins to unfold in a way that neither would be available at 15.

2. After landing their pass rusher on the edge, the Saints will turn to their other defensive needs which include a young RE to groom behind Will Smith or even replace him if he is not retained this offseason. Also a young reserve WILB to groom behind Vilma as well as a stout MILB for depth behind Lofton. Adding another safety could also be a priority if Harper is not on the team in 2013.



Predictions on Saints approach to free agency based on my research of our new 34 defensive scheme under Ryan:

1. Derek Cox CB Jaguars
The Saints will look for a starting corner in this free agency period but I fully expect them to resign LT Jermon Bushrod so money will be tight. Cox has durability issues but he’s still a very good young man cover corner with size and speed who fits the mold of the immediate and long-term impact second tier free agent players that Mickey Loomis has become so accustomed to finding.

2. Charlie Peprah SS Cowboys
The more and more I think about it, I honestly feel the Saints will eventually have to choose this offseason between Roman Harper and Jermon Bushrod and that Bushrod will win out. Peprah is a physical well built strong safety with great instincts for the position. He is well versed in Rob Ryan’s scheme from their time together in Dallas last season and would make a solid sleeper addition in free agency for the Saints. In New Orleans, Peprah could earn the starting SS role with Harper out of the way while the Saints would likely draft a young player at the position to develop.

3. Victor Butler OLB Cowboys
The Saints snag yet another former Rob Ryan player from Dallas in Butler to add depth to the outside linebacker position and familiarity to Ryan’s scheme to the defense. Butler is another young, relatively inexpensive defender that offers immediate and potential long-term value at a great price.



Mock Draft based on new outlook of our new 34 defensive scheme and predicted additions through free agency:

1. Ezekiel Ansah OLB/DE BYU
Ansah’s combination of size, speed and athletic ability is simply too good to pass up. Yes, Ansah is raw but that fact is the only reason such a talented player such as him will be available to the Saints at the 15th overall pick. In New Orleans, Ansah will begin his career as Junior Galette’s understudy. Galette himself like Ansah was not born in America (Port-au-Prince, Haiti) and likely understands a lot of the challenges that Ansah will be facing, this should develop an immediate kinship between the two and provide Ansah with a solid mentor as he develops his skills in both the linebacker and pass rusher department.

Also, Rob Ryan broke into the NFL as a linebackers coach and even DeMarcus Ware has stated that no one as thought him more about how to be a linebacker that Ryan. This is exactly the type of tutelage Ansah will need in the NFL and if all is true about Ryan’s abilities at developing linebackers, the Saints could very well one day soon be boasting one of the league’s most feared pass rushers in Ansah.


3. Zaviar Gooden LB Missouri
As I mentioned above, Jonathan Vilma will return as the teams WILB and due to the nature of the way this 34 scheme is structured, he should be a solid fit. However, Vilma is up in age and injury prone of late so finding his eventual replacement and understudy should be a high priority in this draft. Zaviar Gooden is exactly the kind of explosive, athletic linebacker that this team will need next to Lofton once Vilma is no longer around. Gooden reminds me of Navarow Bowman when he was coming out of Penn State and would be the perfect replacement for Vilma down the line in the middle of this defense in my opinion.

4. Bennie Logan DT Louisiana State
As I said before, the Saints will look to add and develop an eventual replacement for Will Smith at the RE position and landing Logan here would be a major plus. Logan, a DT at LSU possesses good size and length for this position. He’s a good run stuffer who is developing as a pass rusher. Logan is the type of tackle/end tweener that can set the edge and get after the passer. Logan still has some developing to do and is not ready to be a full-time starter in this league but in time he could develop into a fixture up front for the Saints.

5. Duke Williams SS Nevada
Duke Williams is a sleeper prospect of mine heading into this draft. The Nevada product might very well be the best man coverage safety in the entire draft and possesses the skill set to even play corner in a pinch for the team that drafts him. With Roman Harper unlikely to return, there will be a need for a young developing SS on this roster and WIlliams fits the bill nicely.

6. Vince Williams LB Florida State
The last position of need I alluded to in the beginning was for a big, stout, physical ILB to provide depth behind Lofton at the Mike. Williams really impressed at the Senior Bowl with his leadership and physical play and his size (6’0” 247lbs) makes him a perfect fit behind Lofton.



WHODAT
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sammymvpknight


Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 3399
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great analysis. I agree that the Saints will be implementing a one-gap system.

I personally believe that building your defense around aging veterans who just aren't very good anymore is a HUGE mistake.

I am going to have to completely disagree with you on Cam Jordan's role in this defense. The three most important positions on the defense in my book are all on the weak side: RDE, WOLB, and WILB. The RDE is so essential because he has to be disruptive enough to get a block from both the LT and LG. And that allows the WOLB to be the sack-master. If you don't have a dominant RDE, offenses will only have to cover with a guard, and a LT with a RB/FB will be able to stop practically any WOLB. Will Smith is NOT disruptive anymore. Teams would just put a guard on him and it doesn't matter if we have the second coming of Lawrence Taylor...he isn't going to be very effective against a LT with RB/FB help. Cam Jordan is the perfect guy for the position, just as Justin Smith is on the 49ers. At best, Will Smith should be a backup RDE to Cam Jordan.

The WILB (TED) is essential because he is the only guy on the defense that typically has a 2-gap responsibility. He has to over the weak-side A gap and also clean up the weak-side B gap. Lofton is clearly the man to fill this role.

I am ok with Vilma manning SILB. He will have a one-gap responsibility and he can focus on being the quarterback of the defense, one-gap run defender, and could thrive in zone coverage. I ultimately believe that Wilson would be the better SILB because his skillset is tailor-made for the position, but I think that Vilma and Wilson would be a good duo.

I hope that the Saints can improve on Hawthorne at SOLB. As of right now...yes...Hawthorne is probably the best man for the position at the moment. But he is undersized for the position and offers nothing as a pass rusher. The brilliance of the 3-4 is that you don't know where the fourth pass rusher is going to come from. 80% of the time it will be the WOLB...but there at least have to be someone else in the LB corp capable of producing a pass rush. Vilma and Lofton aren't going to produce any pass rush. That leads to an extremely predictable 3-4 defense. You really might as well just play a 4-3.
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Spartica4Real


Joined: 26 Jan 2013
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Location: Louisiana
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good job. I like it. This makes me want Ansah even more now based on what you said about RR. In order though, I want:

Dion Jordan
Ziggy Ansah
Keke Mingo

I agree with sammy though.. Cam needs to play RDE. Not Smith. Put Hicks at LDE.
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FLOODx


Joined: 26 Feb 2009
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Location: New Orleans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing Vilma and Smith on the 53 man roster makes me cringe. Seeing them as starters would make me sick. I can't handle another year of it. Vilma has absolutely nothing left, but two bad knees and a coaches mentality. Smith's play may improve, but the youth, length, athleticism, powers, and quickness is something we need. Hicks needs to play the majority of the snap, and I agree with the guys. Jordan should play RDE. If anyone's going to play "DT" is should be Hicks/Smith. Preferably Hicks.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cam has HUGE potential at RE, if we go with Smith instead of Cam there I'll blow a gasket.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are we running a 3-4 Under or Over?
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sammymvpknight


Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:
So are we running a 3-4 Under or Over?


Ryan is notorious for having diverse defensive packages. He will run under, over, and even some 4-6 (like his daddy).

If the Saints do not plan to improve on Hawthorne at SOLB...then I could easily see Vaccaro being the choice at #15. He is by far the best FS in the draft...and it would allow Ryan to play more 4-6 packages that would allow the Saints an additional pass rusher near the line of scrimmage besides WOLB. I think that Harper may be the best 4-6 SS in the NFL. But the key is that you have to have a FS who can play centerfield. Jenkins is clearly not that guy. I don't even think that Charles Woodson would be that guy. Not many could. Ed Reed could...and I think that Vaccaro also could. I think that Elam might be better than Vaccaro...but as Vaccaro is a bigger need.
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spanky3801


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The draft works, but is Ansah any better than Sam Montgomery?

Point being, if we traded down (in the first) and grabbed a second, I think we would be better off with Montgomery in the 1st and grabbing Xavier Rhodes in the 2nd.

Before anyone objects, I do believe that Montgomery can play OLB in the 34. People often forget the Athletic ability that he has.
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spanky3801 wrote:
The draft works, but is Ansah any better than Sam Montgomery?

Point being, if we traded down (in the first) and grabbed a second, I think we would be better off with Montgomery in the 1st and grabbing Xavier Rhodes in the 2nd.

Before anyone objects, I do believe that Montgomery can play OLB in the 34. People often forget the Athletic ability that he has.


If Ansah can play the position...then Montgomery can. Ansah just IS NOT a 3-4 OLB in my book. A backer is still a backer and has to fulfill the roles of a backer. Ansah has a VERY questionable football IQ. Even as a starting RDE in a 4-3 system he is still a project...but at least at that position he would have one gap run responsbilities and just focus on rushing the passer. He would be completely lost as an OLB. He would strictly be a WOLB...but he would be profoundly lost as a SOLB and would likely be embarrassed in coverage on TEs.

For the record...I think that both are bad choices for OLB. I would rather drop back further and get a guy like Jamie Collins or Cory Lemonier.
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