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tech2186


Joined: 01 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrimeyKid wrote:
tech2186 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
tech2186 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
I want Freeney. Sign him to a deal somewhat cheaper than Abe's and draft a DE or two in the draft as well. We need immediate impact at the LOS, and Freeney can give us that for a couple more years.

Not a band-aid if we use him as a stop gap until our draft picks develop. Not to mention our rookies would be learning from a future HOFer.


But isn't Abe already feeling that role?? We have tried stop gaps for years. The problem is we never let the young guys develop because they dont get any playing time. Freeney isn't gonna sign a vet min deal. Some other team will pay him. And I hope it's not the Falcons


No Abe is not filling that role. How have we tried stop gaps for years? Who has been our stop gaps? We have had Abe starting forever, Jamaal Anderson starting for a couple years, then Kroy kind of stepped up (rotations). Ray Edwards was not meant to be a stop gap. He was supposed to be a key cog in our defense for years, and relieve us of our need at DE.

What young guys really deserved that much playing time? We never even drafted an impact DE. Sidbury was a huge project, and his success rate was already extremely low to begin with. He would NOT have gotten better with more playing time. I mean, we had a terrible pass rush. If he could've played he would've. Even Cliff Matthews got some time. Sidbury sucked and was put in Nolan's dog house.

Freeney played in a scheme which did not suit him well at all. He can have a nice bounce back year in the 4-3. Pass rush rotations is the name of the game. Rookies will have ample opportunities even with Freeney on board to get precious experience on the field.


Anderson was not a TD pick so he really shouldn't factor in this discussion; however, we all know that Mike Smith and company don't really play rookies unless they have to. And the few who have started early in the season were first round picks like Spoon and Jerry. Players like Moore, Konz, Decoud, Kroy...etc did not start until necessary. So to say that these late pick DE's weren't capable of developing is not necessarily true. They never truly got a shot because We only went with older DE's like Chauncey Davis, Anderson, Edwards and Abe. Kroy was the only DE that was developed properly.

But if a DE isn't drafted early I don't see him getting enough time to develop properly. With a guy like Freeney, who is on a massive decline, it will stunt that development of a young DE. I think the Falcons have to double dip at DE in the draft. Or go in FA and get aDE and draft one early (1st or 2nd round). And I'd prefer a younger DE like Kruger or Johnson. Freeney isn't gonna help you against the run and you would be lucky if he gave you five plus sacks. Just isn't worth it to me.


None of those players you mentioned were drafted in the first round.


That's my point. The DE's we have drafted have all been late round picks. Therefore, they did not get much playing time which resulted in them not developing. The only way to develop a player successfully is to give him a maximum chance to play. Mike Smith and company seem to have a plan to always go with a veteran and only start a rookie or younger guy if they HAVE to.
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SpoonFed56


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tech2186 wrote:
That's my point. The DE's we have drafted have all been late round picks. Therefore, they did not get much playing time which resulted in them not developing. The only way to develop a player successfully is to give him a maximum chance to play. Mike Smith and company seem to have a plan to always go with a veteran and only start a rookie or younger guy if they HAVE to.


Abraham and (sometimes) Biermann were the only DE's who could get pressure on QBs and even then our Pash rush sucked. What makes you think theyre going to stick some project DE in the starting line up all of the sudden? I guarantee you if we brought in Freeney and we drafted a stud DE in the first round he wouldn't be riding the bench. He would be on the field working in with Abe/Freeney and they would use Biermann in his "joker" role a lot more. We need immediate impact at the LOS and Abe/Freeney/Rookie DE we draft in the first/Biermann/Babineaux/Peters/Rookie big body DT would be a step in the right direction.
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JonnyQuest


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tech2186 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
tech2186 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
I want Freeney. Sign him to a deal somewhat cheaper than Abe's and draft a DE or two in the draft as well. We need immediate impact at the LOS, and Freeney can give us that for a couple more years.

Not a band-aid if we use him as a stop gap until our draft picks develop. Not to mention our rookies would be learning from a future HOFer.


But isn't Abe already feeling that role?? We have tried stop gaps for years. The problem is we never let the young guys develop because they dont get any playing time. Freeney isn't gonna sign a vet min deal. Some other team will pay him. And I hope it's not the Falcons


No Abe is not filling that role. How have we tried stop gaps for years? Who has been our stop gaps? We have had Abe starting forever, Jamaal Anderson starting for a couple years, then Kroy kind of stepped up (rotations). Ray Edwards was not meant to be a stop gap. He was supposed to be a key cog in our defense for years, and relieve us of our need at DE.

What young guys really deserved that much playing time? We never even drafted an impact DE. Sidbury was a huge project, and his success rate was already extremely low to begin with. He would NOT have gotten better with more playing time. I mean, we had a terrible pass rush. If he could've played he would've. Even Cliff Matthews got some time. Sidbury sucked and was put in Nolan's dog house.

Freeney played in a scheme which did not suit him well at all. He can have a nice bounce back year in the 4-3. Pass rush rotations is the name of the game. Rookies will have ample opportunities even with Freeney on board to get precious experience on the field.


Anderson was not a TD pick so he really shouldn't factor in this discussion; however, we all know that Mike Smith and company don't really play rookies unless they have to. And the few who have started early in the season were first round picks like Spoon and Jerry. Players like Moore, Konz, Decoud, Kroy...etc did not start until necessary. So to say that these late pick DE's weren't capable of developing is not necessarily true. They never truly got a shot because We only went with older DE's like Chauncey Davis, Anderson, Edwards and Abe. Kroy was the only DE that was developed properly.

But if a DE isn't drafted early I don't see him getting enough time to develop properly. With a guy like Freeney, who is on a massive decline, it will stunt that development of a young DE. I think the Falcons have to double dip at DE in the draft. Or go in FA and get aDE and draft one early (1st or 2nd round). And I'd prefer a younger DE like Kruger or Johnson. Freeney isn't gonna help you against the run and you would be lucky if he gave you five plus sacks. Just isn't worth it to me.


Kroy didn't see much playing time until he was developed. Sidbury got a decent amount of playing time that one year he got 4 sacks and a fumble recovery TD, but obviously he wasn't good enough to crack our rotation this year. IF the player shows the coaches they can handle playing time in practice they will GIVE him playing time. Look at Cliff Matthews! Sidbury just sucked plain and simple.

TD has drafted 4 DEs. All projects. VERY SMALL sample size. We hit on one and missed on one. The jury is still out on Mass/Cliff Matthews. However, you are being very naive if you think we should just throw both of them out there, and they will magically better. These late round picks were drafted for depth primarily with an outside chance of becoming starters. You cannot expect every defensive end we ever drafted to become solid NFL players. Young players get playing time when they deserve playing time.

If you are emphasizing playing time early for our rookie DEs, why are you a proponent of getting a young FA DE? That would limit the rookies' playing times even more. Freeney would be the perfect fit since he would be gone in a couple years, and the rookies could then fully take over similar to how the 49ers developed Aldon Smith. The rookies would probably take over after year one (if they were productive) and relegate Freeney to a situational pass rusher role.

Again, rotations is the name of the game in the defensive trenches. You can never have enough pass rushers in this era of the QB. There will be plenty of playing time to go around for Freeney, Abe, Kroy, and maybe one or two early round rookie DEs.
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tech2186


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnyQuest wrote:
tech2186 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
tech2186 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
I want Freeney. Sign him to a deal somewhat cheaper than Abe's and draft a DE or two in the draft as well. We need immediate impact at the LOS, and Freeney can give us that for a couple more years.

Not a band-aid if we use him as a stop gap until our draft picks develop. Not to mention our rookies would be learning from a future HOFer.


But isn't Abe already feeling that role?? We have tried stop gaps for years. The problem is we never let the young guys develop because they dont get any playing time. Freeney isn't gonna sign a vet min deal. Some other team will pay him. And I hope it's not the Falcons


No Abe is not filling that role. How have we tried stop gaps for years? Who has been our stop gaps? We have had Abe starting forever, Jamaal Anderson starting for a couple years, then Kroy kind of stepped up (rotations). Ray Edwards was not meant to be a stop gap. He was supposed to be a key cog in our defense for years, and relieve us of our need at DE.

What young guys really deserved that much playing time? We never even drafted an impact DE. Sidbury was a huge project, and his success rate was already extremely low to begin with. He would NOT have gotten better with more playing time. I mean, we had a terrible pass rush. If he could've played he would've. Even Cliff Matthews got some time. Sidbury sucked and was put in Nolan's dog house.

Freeney played in a scheme which did not suit him well at all. He can have a nice bounce back year in the 4-3. Pass rush rotations is the name of the game. Rookies will have ample opportunities even with Freeney on board to get precious experience on the field.


Anderson was not a TD pick so he really shouldn't factor in this discussion; however, we all know that Mike Smith and company don't really play rookies unless they have to. And the few who have started early in the season were first round picks like Spoon and Jerry. Players like Moore, Konz, Decoud, Kroy...etc did not start until necessary. So to say that these late pick DE's weren't capable of developing is not necessarily true. They never truly got a shot because We only went with older DE's like Chauncey Davis, Anderson, Edwards and Abe. Kroy was the only DE that was developed properly.

But if a DE isn't drafted early I don't see him getting enough time to develop properly. With a guy like Freeney, who is on a massive decline, it will stunt that development of a young DE. I think the Falcons have to double dip at DE in the draft. Or go in FA and get aDE and draft one early (1st or 2nd round). And I'd prefer a younger DE like Kruger or Johnson. Freeney isn't gonna help you against the run and you would be lucky if he gave you five plus sacks. Just isn't worth it to me.


Kroy didn't see much playing time until he was developed. Sidbury got a decent amount of playing time that one year he got 4 sacks and a fumble recovery TD, but obviously he wasn't good enough to crack our rotation this year. IF the player shows the coaches they can handle playing time in practice they will GIVE him playing time. Look at Cliff Matthews! Sidbury just sucked plain and simple.

TD has drafted 4 DEs. All projects. VERY SMALL sample size. We hit on one and missed on one. The jury is still out on Mass/Cliff Matthews. However, you are being very naive if you think we should just throw both of them out there, and they will magically better. These late round picks were drafted for depth primarily with an outside chance of becoming starters. You cannot expect every defensive end we ever drafted to become solid NFL players. Young players get playing time when they deserve playing time.

If you are emphasizing playing time early for our rookie DEs, why are you a proponent of getting a young FA DE? That would limit the rookies' playing times even more. Freeney would be the perfect fit since he would be gone in a couple years, and the rookies could then fully take over similar to how the 49ers developed Aldon Smith. The rookies would probably take over after year one (if they were productive) and relegate Freeney to a situational pass rusher role.

Again, rotations is the name of the game in the defensive trenches. You can never have enough pass rushers in this era of the QB. There will be plenty of playing time to go around for Freeney, Abe, Kroy, and maybe one or two early round rookie DEs.


My point, which I made two posts ago, is that taking a guy who has has 13 sacks total over the past 2 years and who is aging is not a recipe for success. TD has drafted 4-5 DE's right? Only one was given a true chance to develop. I am not saying all of them were going to be good, but all of them did not get equal time to develop as well. Why that happened? Politics, Injury..etc... But to keep grabbing Free Agent vets at DE is not a good idea. We need to get a guy who is young and let him develop. I say draft a DE in the 1st because I am sure that DE will play because Mike Smith tends to let his 1st round picks play. If we draft a DE in the 4th or 5th, that guy will never be heard of again. Cliff Matthews and Sidbury have not had the snaps Kroy has had. And there is no way you can say that Kroy is leaps and bounds better than those guys. The truth is we dont know! They rarely play. I am just in favor of building through the draft, especially at cornerstone positons like DE. Where you need youth in order to get to these passing league QB's.
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JonnyQuest


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you watch the Falcons play?

Kroy IS leaps and bounds better than both. Hence, the coaches give him playing time. Sidbury DID get playing time last season, I guess you just don't want to admit it. Cliff Matthews DID get playing time this season, even in the playoffs.

I don't get why you think a vet would hinder a rookie's development. You still have not countered the fact that there are multiple teams out there that utilize numerous pass rushers, and their young players develop just fine.

Osi, Justin Tucky, JPP

Aldon Smith's rookie season Niners had Ahmad Brooks and Parys Haralson starting.

As a coach, would you just plug some player in the game even though all season in practice he looked terrible? We were a SB contender, would you risk losing precious games to just "try out" some guy who has looked like a complete scrub?
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tech2186


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnyQuest wrote:
Do you watch the Falcons play?

Kroy IS leaps and bounds better than both. Hence, the coaches give him playing time. Sidbury DID get playing time last season, I guess you just don't want to admit it. Cliff Matthews DID get playing time this season, even in the playoffs.

I don't get why you think a vet would hinder a rookie's development. You still have not countered the fact that there are multiple teams out there that utilize numerous pass rushers, and their young players develop just fine.

Osi, Justin Tucky, JPP

Aldon Smith's rookie season Niners had Ahmad Brooks and Parys Haralson starting.

As a coach, would you just plug some player in the game even though all season in practice he looked terrible? We were a SB contender, would you risk losing precious games to just "try out" some guy who has looked like a complete scrub?


Cliff Matthews got time after Abe was hurt and Edwards was cut. He def didnt get any credible snaps until late in the season until those things happened. Sidbury was a ghost this season. Kroy is not a starter. So to say he is leaps and bounds over anyone is a huge stretch. And how can you act like the starters we did have were creating pressure????? They weren't. Abe would help occasionally but for the most part QB's would be upright and moving the ball on us. Maybe if Smith would have tried different combinations we could of seen some advancement in the development in our young DE's. We didnt see that because he kept "kroy" in and Ray Edwards in most of the season Kroy had how many sacks????????? The truth is this team has not done a good job in developing Defensive ends and you want to continue with a failing formula that has resulted in the mess this team is in now with its Dline.
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JonnyQuest


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The truth is, we had terrible talent at the DE position.

No matter how much they played they would not have gotten any more pressure. The best players play, and that is what happened with us. Unfortunately, our best players weren't that great.

Kroy is leaps and bounds better than Sidbury and Matthews. Tbis is not an opinion, but a fact. He is so versatile and has a non-stop motor. He is never going to be a double digit sack guy, but he will be a player that can be utilized in many ways.
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JonnyQuest


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tech2186 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
Do you watch the Falcons play?

Kroy IS leaps and bounds better than both. Hence, the coaches give him playing time. Sidbury DID get playing time last season, I guess you just don't want to admit it. Cliff Matthews DID get playing time this season, even in the playoffs.

I don't get why you think a vet would hinder a rookie's development. You still have not countered the fact that there are multiple teams out there that utilize numerous pass rushers, and their young players develop just fine.

Osi, Justin Tucky, JPP

Aldon Smith's rookie season Niners had Ahmad Brooks and Parys Haralson starting.

As a coach, would you just plug some player in the game even though all season in practice he looked terrible? We were a SB contender, would you risk losing precious games to just "try out" some guy who has looked like a complete scrub?


Cliff Matthews got time after Abe was hurt and Edwards was cut. He def didnt get any credible snaps until late in the season until those things happened. Sidbury was a ghost this season. Kroy is not a starter. So to say he is leaps and bounds over anyone is a huge stretch. And how can you act like the starters we did have were creating pressure????? They weren't. Abe would help occasionally but for the most part QB's would be upright and moving the ball on us. Maybe if Smith would have tried different combinations we could of seen some advancement in the development in our young DE's. We didnt see that because he kept "kroy" in and Ray Edwards in most of the season Kroy had how many sacks????????? The truth is this team has not done a good job in developing Defensive ends and you want to continue with a failing formula that has resulted in the mess this team is in now with its Dline.


So I guess you would want to play our worst players.

No, I don't want to repeat a failing formula. I want to DRAFT DE IN THE EARLY ROUNDS. We have never done that before. Acquiring a vet DE to mentor and provide immediate impact does not fit the mold of this failed formula you speak of.
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