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What about trading up?
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whodatworm23


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 3180
Location: Nawlins
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: What about trading up? Reply with quote

We always talk about who we might take at 15 or what we could get in return in a trade down scenario but how about trading up… Is there a player you covet enough in this draft to do so?

Let’s all play GM here for a second, you’re Mickey Loomis and you have set your sights on a prospect that you simply got to have. Target a trade partner and explain your trade and who you’re moving up to get…

For me, I just feel the Saints need to land a difference maker on the edge. Someone who has the potential to develop into an Aldon Smith type player in this league. The Saints haven’t had that type of defensive playmaker in a long time, maybe since the days of Rickey Jackson.

My Target:
Dion Jordan OLB Oregon

I feel Jordan can develop into that Aldon Smith type of impact player for us and he’s simply too good to slip out of the top 10. So, I put together a package to move up and select him.

I trade the 15th overall pick, as well as our 4th round selection & OT Charles Brown to the Arizona Cardinals for the 7th overall pick in the 2013 draft.

I feel this trade could be a win, win for both franchise’s here. The Cardinals need help at offensive tackle but also would like to draft their quarterback of the future this year for new HC Bruce Arians. Brown is a solid young tackle who could start in Arizona at either the left or right tackle position. Sliding back also allows the Cardinals the opportunity to still land the quarterback of their choosing with the exception of maybe Geno Smith. Matt Barkley, Mike Glennon, Tyler Wilson and Ryan Nassib would all still be available at 15 and would be much less of a risk outside of the top 10… and cheaper to boot! The Cardinals also pick up a mid-round pick in the process.

For the Saints, while we sacrifice a mid-round pick and depth on offense… sometimes you have to rob Peter to pay Paul but if Jordan develops into the type of impact defender I feel he will then this trade would have been well worth it!

What’s your trade up idea?


WHODAT
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jcvoodoo


Joined: 26 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no real value with trading up other that getting players like Dee Milner or Jarvis Jones or even Jonathon Banks.
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Spartica4Real


Joined: 26 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcvoodoo wrote:
I see no real value with trading up other that getting players like Dee Milner or Jarvis Jones or even Jonathon Banks.


I say don't trade up at all. We have so many needs we cannot lose at 15. Jordan, Elam, Floyd, etc. ONE of them will fall.
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Porter22


Joined: 13 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:
jcvoodoo wrote:
I see no real value with trading up other that getting players like Dee Milner or Jarvis Jones or even Jonathon Banks.


I say don't trade up at all. We have so many needs we cannot lose at 15. Jordan, Elam, Floyd, etc. ONE of them will fall.
There are maybe 7 players I would trade up for (On defense: Floyd, Loluteili, Jones, Miliner and maybe Moore), after those players there are like 30 equal players with many of them playing positions of needs for us. Trading up in the Top 7 would cost us to much, so trading Down should be our main Option!
I know you Love Jordan, but i'm not 100% convinced, that he can become the difference maker this defense is needing so badly!
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Spartica4Real


Joined: 26 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Porter22 wrote:
Spartica4Real wrote:
jcvoodoo wrote:
I see no real value with trading up other that getting players like Dee Milner or Jarvis Jones or even Jonathon Banks.


I say don't trade up at all. We have so many needs we cannot lose at 15. Jordan, Elam, Floyd, etc. ONE of them will fall.
There are maybe 7 players I would trade up for (On defense: Floyd, Loluteili, Jones, Miliner and maybe Moore), after those players there are like 30 equal players with many of them playing positions of needs for us. Trading up in the Top 7 would cost us to much, so trading Down should be our main Option!
I know you Love Jordan, but i'm not 100% convinced, that he can become the difference maker this defense is needing so badly!


Why'd you quote me? Im on your side. And if we traded a OT trade Strief not Brown anyway. Laughing
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FLOODx


Joined: 26 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely wouldn't trade up for Jordan. With his injury, slight frame, and lack of pass rushing moves I could easily see him being available at 15. Maybe if a guy like Star falls out the top 10, I'd consider it, but I probably still wouldn't do it. The shortage of draft picks is causing us to hold onto guys like Vilma and Smith. Second rounders could be immediate starters in some case. With salary cap problems we need the draft to bring in young talent whether it be starters or depth. The more picks the better, and I see no need to trade up in this draft. I completely agree with what Mayock said. This is a really deep draft, but there are no difference makers in the top 10. Trading back would be the best thing to do.
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see us trading up or down. There is value at the 15 spot, and quality defensive players throughout the draft. Don't think we need to get desperate and jump around. I think we will find our guy at 15.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
I don't see us trading up or down. There is value at the 15 spot, and quality defensive players throughout the draft. Don't think we need to get desperate and jump around. I think we will find our guy at 15.


I also agree with this. Like I said, at least one guy we need will fall.
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sammymvpknight


Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would trade up for two players...Star and JJ. But it all comes down to compensation. The Saints need to break the cycle of throwing picks away. It really is going to start catching up with us.

So I would probably be willing to part with a fourth rounder for either player. I think that Star's stock is going to drop, primarily because other guys will move up. I think that Floyd and Richardson both have a chance pass Star...and should test better at the combine. Not to mention that there are lots of rising pass rushers like Jordan and Ansah who might move Star down. The only reason why JJ would drop is if a few Trans don't clear him medically. I don't see either making it to fifteen, but they could drop outside of the top 7 which would make the compensation doable.

I think Star is the best NT in the draft, and can play either one or two gap, which provides versatility. JJ is just a stud and probably the best player in the draft. Other than those two, might as well wait.
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Porter22


Joined: 13 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:
Porter22 wrote:
Spartica4Real wrote:
jcvoodoo wrote:
I see no real value with trading up other that getting players like Dee Milner or Jarvis Jones or even Jonathon Banks.


I say don't trade up at all. We have so many needs we cannot lose at 15. Jordan, Elam, Floyd, etc. ONE of them will fall.
There are maybe 7 players I would trade up for (On defense: Floyd, Loluteili, Jones, Miliner and maybe Moore), after those players there are like 30 equal players with many of them playing positions of needs for us. Trading up in the Top 7 would cost us to much, so trading Down should be our main Option!
I know you Love Jordan, but i'm not 100% convinced, that he can become the difference maker this defense is needing so badly!


Why'd you quote me? Im on your side. And if we traded a OT trade Strief not Brown anyway. Laughing
Lol my phone sucks, didn't mean you! Laughing
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krewebrees


Joined: 10 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would hate if we traded up, especially for Jordan. I'm no as big a fan of him as most people here. Yes he has good cover skillls, but as a linebacker I want someone who can stop the run and get a good pass rush, niether of which Jordan excells at.

Even if Jordan was exactlly what I was looking for I still wouldn't trade up for because of the depth of this draft. If Werner, Jones, Moore, Jordan, and Ansah are gone, Mingo should likely be there or at least several other quality defensive players.

I would rather see Payton do what he did in 2011 and get a 2nd pick later in the 1st then trade up. I'm not saying that I want that to happen, but I just really don't want us to trade up.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd much rather stay put than trade down, and I'd much rather trade down than move up.
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krewebrees wrote:
I would hate if we traded up, especially for Jordan. I'm no as big a fan of him as most people here. Yes he has good cover skillls, but as a linebacker I want someone who can stop the run and get a good pass rush, niether of which Jordan excells at.

Even if Jordan was exactlly what I was looking for I still wouldn't trade up for because of the depth of this draft. If Werner, Jones, Moore, Jordan, and Ansah are gone, Mingo should likely be there or at least several other quality defensive players.

I would rather see Payton do what he did in 2011 and get a 2nd pick later in the 1st then trade up. I'm not saying that I want that to happen, but I just really don't want us to trade up.


Jordan is going to be a good pass rusher. He is very capable, but that simply was not his primary role in Oregon. I agree with you on his size though. He has a 26.5 BMI which is tiny for a LB. He also will have a high center of mass which is going to cause significant leverage issues and hurt his ability to defend the run. To counterbalance that he is going to need excellent lower and upper body strength. His upper body strength may be limited by a labrum injury.
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He has a 26.5 BMI which is tiny for a LB.


According to BMI Darren Sproles and Jimmy Graham are obese.

It's much more accurate to just say Jordan is too lean or too light, but the BMI on it's own isn't a good measure. You can't tell how big or small someone is based on BMI.

6' 6", 243lbs = 28.1 BMI
5' 5", 169lbs = 28.1 BMI

If we're talking about OLBs, one of them is a lot better than the other. You can't tell which based solely on BMI.

Another example.

London Fletcher
5' 10", 238lbs

Kevin James (after his huge weight loss)
5' 9", 235lbs

They will have very similar BMIs, but obviously one of them is an NFL LBer and the other is an overweight actor. Their similar BMIs tell us nothing about their physique. BMI when in the context of pro athletes isn't a very good measure.
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is BMI a perfect tool? No. But it is not a bad tool when comparing apples to apples. The players have to have relatively similar percent body fat. The ideal measure of body composition would be to perform a center of mass calculation. Center of mass is important for leverage, which is one of the quintessential aspects of run defense. But unfortunately we don’t have that information, we have height and weight.

I do think that we are dealing with apples to apples in this situation. And clearly, Dion Jordan does not fit the mold of your typical starting 3-4 OLB. Below are were the 2012 starting OLBs of every team with their BMIs in parentheses.

Team / WOLB / SOLB

Cardinals: Acho (32.1), Groves (32.9)
Ravens: Suggs (32.5), Kruger (32.9)
Cowboys: Ware (30.9), Spencer (31.2)
Packers: Walden (32.1), Matthews (31.9)
Texans: Reed (32.1), Barwin (31.4)
Colts: Freeney (35.4), Mathis (31.5)
Chiefs: Hali (34.4), Houston (32.2)
Jets: Pace (32.3), McIntyre (31.9)
Steelers: Harrison (32.Cool, Woodley (34.0)
Chargers: Ingram (35.0), Phillips (31.2)
49ers: Smith (31.4), Brooks (31.7)
Redskins: Orakpo (31.3), Kerrigan (31.6)

WOLB BMI Range: 30.9 (Ware) – 35.4 (Freeney)
WOLB BMI Average: 32.8
WOLB BMI Mode: 32.3
SOLB BMI Range: 31.2 (Spencer/Phillips) – 34.0 (Woodley)
SOLB BMI Average: 31.7
SOLB BMI Mode: 31.6

Now let’s look at Dion Jordan and his gangly 6’7” 250lbs frame (I am actually being kind because he played at 235lbs this season). BMI: 28.2

What is it going to take for Dion Jordan to make his way up to Ware’s BMI (the thinnest starting 3-4 OLB in the NFL)? He is going to have to get up to 274lbs. Note, that this is about a 40lb increase to what he was playing at last season. Can he do it? It is possible. But will it have an effect on his explosion and ability to stay healthy with the added weight? Absolutely.

It is extremely difficult to add forty pounds of muscles without either limiting your flexibility (which is one of Jordan’s strengths), slowing yourself down (which is one of Jordan’s strengths), or injuring yourself.

Just S&G’s. Here is where Galette & Wilson stack up. Galette BMI: 33.1. Wilson BMI: 30.7. Galette is the ideal size…whereas Wilson is on the light size. But Wilson, unlike Dion Jordan only has 10-15 lbs to go which could be done pretty safely without sacrificing athleticism.

I have concerns that Dion Jordan will never be more than a part time player because of his size. He looks like a more ideal fit for SOLB in a 4-3 system.
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