Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Historical look at Rookie QB's
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Cleveland Browns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dawgpoun8017


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 12184
Location: Waterloo,NY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
He actually decided to retire from baseball cause of his shoulder
suuuuurreeeee


edit:
Quote:
On the decision to quit baseball and try college football:
I just wasn’t having much success,” Weeden said. “My numbers were average. I was giving up a lot of doubles in the gap. I always knew I wanted to play football if it didn’t work out, as far as my baseball career (goes). After the ’06 season, I had had enough, I decided I wanted to go back and get an education and play college football, and I think I made the right decision.


http://www.orangepower.com/threads/nokblog-brandon-weeden-on-%E2%80%9Cjon-gruden%E2%80%99s-qb-camp%E2%80%9D.142774/


and the shoulder injury made him be average.
_________________
2013 Joe Blackburn HOF Award Recipient

Adopt a Brownie

TJ "Trauma" Ward

TKL- 75, INT- 2, Sack- 1.5,PDF-7, TD-2

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5211
Location: WV
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
He actually decided to retire from baseball cause of his shoulder
suuuuurreeeee


edit:
Quote:
On the decision to quit baseball and try college football:
I just wasn’t having much success,” Weeden said. “My numbers were average. I was giving up a lot of doubles in the gap. I always knew I wanted to play football if it didn’t work out, as far as my baseball career (goes). After the ’06 season, I had had enough, I decided I wanted to go back and get an education and play college football, and I think I made the right decision.


http://www.orangepower.com/threads/nokblog-brandon-weeden-on-%E2%80%9Cjon-gruden%E2%80%99s-qb-camp%E2%80%9D.142774/


and the shoulder injury made him be average.


Still, it doesn't relate in my opinion. So he failed at a baseball career (in terms of making the big leagues) I see no correlation between that failure and any other future failures he may or may not have.

Just because I couldn't make it as a car salesman, does that mean after I went back to college and earned my degree in economics that a company shouldn't hire me because I was a failure at my 1st gig? I don't get it.

Disclaimer: That didn't refer to me, I have never failed at anything. I tried racking my brain for my own example but couldn't come up with one.


_________________


Last edited by Thomas5737 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dawgpoun8017


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 12184
Location: Waterloo,NY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
He actually decided to retire from baseball cause of his shoulder
suuuuurreeeee


edit:
Quote:
On the decision to quit baseball and try college football:
I just wasn’t having much success,” Weeden said. “My numbers were average. I was giving up a lot of doubles in the gap. I always knew I wanted to play football if it didn’t work out, as far as my baseball career (goes). After the ’06 season, I had had enough, I decided I wanted to go back and get an education and play college football, and I think I made the right decision.


http://www.orangepower.com/threads/nokblog-brandon-weeden-on-%E2%80%9Cjon-gruden%E2%80%99s-qb-camp%E2%80%9D.142774/


and the shoulder injury made him be average.


Still, it doesn't relate in my opinion. So he failed at a baseball career (in terms of making the big leagues) I see no correlation between that failure and any other future failures he may or may not have.

Just because I couldn't make it as a car salesman, does that mean after I went back to college and earned my degree in economics that a company shouldn't hire me because I was a failure at my 1st gig? I don't get it.

Disclaimer: That didn't refer to me, I have never failed at anything. I tried racking my brain for my own example but couldn't come up with one.



I agree with you it doesnt
_________________
2013 Joe Blackburn HOF Award Recipient

Adopt a Brownie

TJ "Trauma" Ward

TKL- 75, INT- 2, Sack- 1.5,PDF-7, TD-2

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
He actually decided to retire from baseball cause of his shoulder
suuuuurreeeee


edit:
Quote:
On the decision to quit baseball and try college football:
I just wasn’t having much success,” Weeden said. “My numbers were average. I was giving up a lot of doubles in the gap. I always knew I wanted to play football if it didn’t work out, as far as my baseball career (goes). After the ’06 season, I had had enough, I decided I wanted to go back and get an education and play college football, and I think I made the right decision.


http://www.orangepower.com/threads/nokblog-brandon-weeden-on-%E2%80%9Cjon-gruden%E2%80%99s-qb-camp%E2%80%9D.142774/


and the shoulder injury made him be average.


Still, it doesn't relate in my opinion. So he failed at a baseball career (in terms of making the big leagues) I see no correlation between that failure and any other future failures he may or may not have.

Just because I couldn't make it as a car salesman, does that mean after I went back to college and earned my degree in economics that a company shouldn't hire me because I was a failure at my 1st gig? I don't get it.

Disclaimer: That didn't refer to me, I have never failed at anything. I tried racking my brain for my own example but couldn't come up with one.



I agree with you it doesnt


I think bungle's point was that Weeden was horrible at baseball, and a bust, and bad, and not good, and he stunk, and he didn't win, and he gave up too many doubles, and he was awful, and he was abismal, and pathetic (I looked up all the synonyms for "average", then used these words instead).
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mtmmike


Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 647
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

never let a good emotion interfer with fact
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5211
Location: WV
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtmmike wrote:
never let a good emotion interfer with fact


Facts schmacts, You can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bungleodeon


Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 8883
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cept weeden's already got 1 foot in the grave for his football career right now.

Oh, and a 5.6 ERA in A ball from a 2nd round pick isn't "average", it's a full scale bust. Funny how he was an "average" baseball player, but Colt McCoy is a horrible QB round these parts. Such a fair group.
_________________
Adopt-a-Brown: Jabaal Sheard - Stats:
First 3 seasons: 135 Tackles - 21 Sacks - 7 FF - 2 FR - 9 PD - 11 STF
2014: TBD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dawgpoun8017


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 12184
Location: Waterloo,NY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
cept weeden's already got 1 foot in the grave for his football career right now.

Oh, and a 5.6 ERA in A ball from a 2nd round pick isn't "average", it's a full scale bust. Funny how he was an "average" baseball player, but Colt McCoy is a horrible QB round these parts. Such a fair group.



Well when that bust of a baseball player is a better football player than colt mccoy thats going to happen
_________________
2013 Joe Blackburn HOF Award Recipient

Adopt a Brownie

TJ "Trauma" Ward

TKL- 75, INT- 2, Sack- 1.5,PDF-7, TD-2

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bungleodeon


Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 8883
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
cept weeden's already got 1 foot in the grave for his football career right now.

Oh, and a 5.6 ERA in A ball from a 2nd round pick isn't "average", it's a full scale bust. Funny how he was an "average" baseball player, but Colt McCoy is a horrible QB round these parts. Such a fair group.



Well when that bust of a baseball player is a better football player than colt mccoy thats going to happen
Missing the point, a time honored tradition here in the Browns forum. Shouldn't you have tagged on a really poorly thought out analogy as well?
_________________
Adopt-a-Brown: Jabaal Sheard - Stats:
First 3 seasons: 135 Tackles - 21 Sacks - 7 FF - 2 FR - 9 PD - 11 STF
2014: TBD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5211
Location: WV
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
cept weeden's already got 1 foot in the grave for his football career right now.

Oh, and a 5.6 ERA in A ball from a 2nd round pick isn't "average", it's a full scale bust. Funny how he was an "average" baseball player, but Colt McCoy is a horrible QB round these parts. Such a fair group.


McCoy isn't horrible, he just isn't good enough to be our future. I think most of us like and respect Colt (now his family, well..), but we know he isn't likely to lead us anywhere.

We aren't certain yet with Weeden, there is still hope. We will know all we need to know this year if he starts for us. Is he correcting mistakes or making them over and over again? Is he taking the leap forward, or just idling along?

If he does take the leap to a good QB this year we should expect another 5 years of good play before we have to worry about his successor. I know a lot of people don't like the idea of having a QB who will likely only be starting for 6-7 or so years because they are spoiled from our rich recent past where our QB is in place for many years and we don't have to prepare for change at the position much. But Tim Couch is going to be 36 at the start of the season, he had a great run with us but it is time to move on to our next great QB.

*italics denote sarcasm and all around non-sense

(p.s. I don't want to hear anyone gasping that Couch is only 6 years older than Weeden)
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
e5i50blitz


Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 34
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
Missing the point, a time honored tradition here in the Browns forum. Shouldn't you have tagged on a really poorly thought out analogy as well?


The irony is awesome +1 for you.

A whole post on stats, showing that Weeden was not the worst rookie to strap on cleats, showing that their is the possibility that he MAY improve like the majority of the players on the list did and that just because he did not light the world up RG3 style that all hope was not lost.

The hidden POINT was that even at 30, he still could be better in year 2 than paying high dollars to pick up an Alex Smith , or a 31 year old Jason Cambell ( names bantered about in the forums) because either prospect is just a 3 to 5 year stop gap (Just like weeden would be) and that the fire in a lot of peoples eyes was due to age and not winning the RG3 lottery and not an objective look at the growth and maturity of rookies.

The point of my whole exercise was to look at Weeden objectively in catagories that are as similar to other rookies situations.

Everyone knows that Weeden is a 5 year and out project (IF he matures and shows growth)
* For the record that is a big IF, the stats I looked up show the top QB's in the league playing and where Weeden compared to them. I am sure that many other players that flammed out would also fall somewhere on this list.

The question is can he be NFL average in years 2 thru 5 while we draft a qb to learn the craft, or pick up a young 2nd stringer that fits our system to learn on the job rather than baptism by fire. (see players that sat 2 or more years in the stats)

The stats show it could go either way, if you want to look at intangable on the negative side you can, others will look at the positive.

I'm in favor of staying the course, trying to lockup a young #2 that fits the Chud and Turner mold and if Weeden flames then look towards the draft in 2014 and hope the young #2 qb can step up.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mtmmike


Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 647
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
never let a good emotion interfer with fact


Facts schmacts, You can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true.
your right the giants should have cut eli and denver should have cut elway.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5211
Location: WV
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtmmike wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
never let a good emotion interfer with fact


Facts schmacts, You can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true.
your right the giants should have cut eli and denver should have cut elway.


As long as we both agree
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1226
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

e5i50blitz wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Missing the point, a time honored tradition here in the Browns forum. Shouldn't you have tagged on a really poorly thought out analogy as well?


The irony is awesome +1 for you.

A whole post on stats, showing that Weeden was not the worst rookie to strap on cleats, showing that their is the possibility that he MAY improve like the majority of the players on the list did and that just because he did not light the world up RG3 style that all hope was not lost.

The hidden POINT was that even at 30, he still could be better in year 2 than paying high dollars to pick up an Alex Smith , or a 31 year old Jason Cambell ( names bantered about in the forums) because either prospect is just a 3 to 5 year stop gap (Just like weeden would be) and that the fire in a lot of peoples eyes was due to age and not winning the RG3 lottery and not an objective look at the growth and maturity of rookies.

The point of my whole exercise was to look at Weeden objectively in catagories that are as similar to other rookies situations.

Everyone knows that Weeden is a 5 year and out project (IF he matures and shows growth)
* For the record that is a big IF, the stats I looked up show the top QB's in the league playing and where Weeden compared to them. I am sure that many other players that flammed out would also fall somewhere on this list.

The question is can he be NFL average in years 2 thru 5 while we draft a qb to learn the craft, or pick up a young 2nd stringer that fits our system to learn on the job rather than baptism by fire. (see players that sat 2 or more years in the stats)

The stats show it could go either way, if you want to look at intangible on the negative side you can, others will look at the positive.

I'm in favor of staying the course, trying to lockup a young #2 that fits the Chud and Turner mold and if Weeden flames then look towards the draft in 2014 and hope the young #2 qb can step up.


Here's the thing I don't understand about your argument... you use a lot of "if's" / "could's" / etc to describe Weeden, so you are clearly acknowledging that next year he also has potential to replicate this past season's meh production. You also acknowledge that in a best case scenario he's done in five years, and the Browns are back to looking for another guy. So if that's the case, why are you pushing to stick with him, instead of going with a proven guy like Alex Smith? What if all your ifs/coulds don't pan out and it's another waisted year of Browns 6 win football? Sure, Smith will never be a top five qb, but at least we know he won't be a detriment to the team and we can have two or three years of solid QB play before the new regime starts one of their own guys. I feel like a lot of people are falling into the sunk-cost trap with Weeden (his first round pick status) and not looking at it from a pragmatic point of view.[/b]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BwickBrownie wrote:
e5i50blitz wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Missing the point, a time honored tradition here in the Browns forum. Shouldn't you have tagged on a really poorly thought out analogy as well?


The irony is awesome +1 for you.

A whole post on stats, showing that Weeden was not the worst rookie to strap on cleats, showing that their is the possibility that he MAY improve like the majority of the players on the list did and that just because he did not light the world up RG3 style that all hope was not lost.

The hidden POINT was that even at 30, he still could be better in year 2 than paying high dollars to pick up an Alex Smith , or a 31 year old Jason Cambell ( names bantered about in the forums) because either prospect is just a 3 to 5 year stop gap (Just like weeden would be) and that the fire in a lot of peoples eyes was due to age and not winning the RG3 lottery and not an objective look at the growth and maturity of rookies.

The point of my whole exercise was to look at Weeden objectively in catagories that are as similar to other rookies situations.

Everyone knows that Weeden is a 5 year and out project (IF he matures and shows growth)
* For the record that is a big IF, the stats I looked up show the top QB's in the league playing and where Weeden compared to them. I am sure that many other players that flammed out would also fall somewhere on this list.

The question is can he be NFL average in years 2 thru 5 while we draft a qb to learn the craft, or pick up a young 2nd stringer that fits our system to learn on the job rather than baptism by fire. (see players that sat 2 or more years in the stats)

The stats show it could go either way, if you want to look at intangible on the negative side you can, others will look at the positive.

I'm in favor of staying the course, trying to lockup a young #2 that fits the Chud and Turner mold and if Weeden flames then look towards the draft in 2014 and hope the young #2 qb can step up.


Here's the thing I don't understand about your argument... you use a lot of "if's" / "could's" / etc to describe Weeden, so you are clearly acknowledging that next year he also has potential to replicate this past season's meh production. You also acknowledge that in a best case scenario he's done in five years, and the Browns are back to looking for another guy. So if that's the case, why are you pushing to stick with him, instead of going with a proven guy like Alex Smith? What if all your ifs/coulds don't pan out and it's another waisted year of Browns 6 win football? Sure, Smith will never be a top five qb, but at least we know he won't be a detriment to the team and we can have two or three years of solid QB play before the new regime starts one of their own guys. I feel like a lot of people are falling into the sunk-cost trap with Weeden (his first round pick status) and not looking at it from a pragmatic point of view.[/b]


So you're saying that Smith's "ifs and coulds" for 2-3 years--along with the cost to get him-- are superior to Weeden's "ifs and coulds" for 5-6 years.

What did you base the opinion on (more "ifs and coulds"?) and did you really know you were saying that?

I'm all for competition for Weeden. That is precisely why I'm an advocate for someone "like" Smith (an experienced QB with some history of success). But honestly, don't you think Weeden has a pretty good chance to beat out Smith in said competition for the starting role in Norv's vertical offense?

As time passes, I'm beginning to think more and more that the "competition" issue is more related to McCoy (who provides none) than Weeden.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Cleveland Browns All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group