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Is MLB that big of a need?
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Winder23


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Is MLB that big of a need? Reply with quote

There has been a great deal of discussion about the MLB position for the Broncos. The biggest question for me is what the Broncos personnel department and coaches want from the position?

Last year we obviously had Brooking in a 2 down role and he did an admirable job. The nickle duties usually fell on Woodyard and Trevathan to handdle. DJ did get some time in the nickle, but didn't really have a role on the team coming in so late. He looks to be a s good as gone unless he takes a substantial paycut.

To me the nickle LB's are much more important than who the Broncos line up at MLB. That shouldn't change this year either. Woodyard showed he can play all three downs and Trevathan did a nice job when given the opportunity.

With the lack of MLB prospects in the draft and the complete dearth of available free agents, I think the Broncos may look within to find their MLB for this year.

Thoughts and Opinions?
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've long been a Nate Irving fan, but he's hard to project as there have been reports on him developing well behind the scenes, and of the Broncos seeming to like his future. At the same time, we haven't seen anything from him on the field yet.

What we do at MLB will say a lot about Nate Irving.
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ogletree has the athleticism, yet is more suited for a Tampa 2. Minter's physical skills are not really off the charts, but he is very instinctual in run and pass defense. Brown is undersized, but fast and flowing. Te'o is a three down LB as well. All four would be a wise improvement for our team. We have the sub-package formations to make it out alive on a couple of occasions, but with Brooking gone we'd only have Mays who has a few flash plays but usually overruns the play. One MLB who is a beggars version of Lofton is not what we should or could work with over a long season.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its a big need. Williams has a pretty large cap hit and he doesnt just have problems, he has a subscription. Mays is also overpaid and likely to be released or asked to restructure. Brooking I think is retiring? Not really sure what his plans are.
So its a need and people need to be brought in. I don't think you need to get a draft pick on a guy or sign a very good one. But you need to get someone or a few people that can contribute there and not be a liability. It a big hole everyone is looking for that answer longterm and it doenst look like its there and you shouldnt reach on a guy. get some solid vets and continue from there.

As for nickle LBers being more important I disagree. A good MLB can really make a defense better. Great run stopping MLB can make a team have to favor the pass and being solid in coverage helps. As pocket passing QBs having a guy blow up the gaps up the middle and taking away the ability to step up in the pocker will force faster throws w/ no place to step up and Miller rushing arounf edge.
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BroncosFan2010


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we need to restructure DJ down to around 2.5-3M a year and take a guy in the 3rd or 4th round. I really like Sio Moore and AJ Klein in those rounds.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantastic question Winder! Now that you've started it, I think you should continue every so often with different positions. Lots of good discussions are there.

As far as MLB, yeah, it's a need but is the answer already on our roster? Loved what I saw from Johnson in preseason . Kid's always around the ball. Watching irving. kids a stud. Seems to like the contact and likes the play at the LOS.

I don't watch much college ball anymore but I did make it a point to watch a bunch of Te'o. If he's there at 28 ya gotta take him. I'm probably in the minority but I see him as a difference maker and "elite".

Not sure Ogletree or Minter would be that much of an upgrade over what we already have.

My opinion? Keep Brooking for one more season, let Irving and Johnson fight for the spot and if Te'o drops to us at 28, grab him.

Good topic Winder!
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
Fantastic question Winder! Now that you've started it, I think you should continue every so often with different positions. Lots of good discussions are there.

As far as MLB, yeah, it's a need but is the answer already on our roster? Loved what I saw from Johnson in preseason . Kid's always around the ball. Watching irving. kids a stud. Seems to like the contact and likes the play at the LOS.

I don't watch much college ball anymore but I did make it a point to watch a bunch of Te'o. If he's there at 28 ya gotta take him. I'm probably in the minority but I see him as a difference maker and "elite".

Not sure Ogletree or Minter would be that much of an upgrade over what we already have.

My opinion? Keep Brooking for one more season, let Irving and Johnson fight for the spot and if Te'o drops to us at 28, grab him.

Good topic Winder!


Not to question your judgement as I much more rely on other fans/analysts/scouts in terms of prospect evaluation than you do even with your - as you have said - lessened amount of college football viewing, but it seems to me that you value young, unproven and/or late round draftees on our roster more than the average fan. Now, I know that we must develop these guys and smoothen the edges but you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (yes, I had to scramble for a fitting idiom here as I can't come up with a more known one to get the message across). Every once in a while, a team stumbles upon a hidden gem but generally guys like Stevie Johnson fall for a reason. And Irving has not shown anything aside while playing at Sam. We need to draft an anchor at MLB. There are four guys to go after high and a couple of prospects in the middle rounds worth a look. Brooking and potentially Uracher won't do it anymore. The way Denver has neglected the MLB positions is similar to the way the DT position has been ignored (until last year). This needs to stop. Even in a somewhat down year position wise. Let's face it, Te'o, Ogletree, Minter and Brown are no Kuechly but still really good linebackers.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoinGermany wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
Fantastic question Winder! Now that you've started it, I think you should continue every so often with different positions. Lots of good discussions are there.

As far as MLB, yeah, it's a need but is the answer already on our roster? Loved what I saw from Johnson in preseason . Kid's always around the ball. Watching irving. kids a stud. Seems to like the contact and likes the play at the LOS.

I don't watch much college ball anymore but I did make it a point to watch a bunch of Te'o. If he's there at 28 ya gotta take him. I'm probably in the minority but I see him as a difference maker and "elite".

Not sure Ogletree or Minter would be that much of an upgrade over what we already have.

My opinion? Keep Brooking for one more season, let Irving and Johnson fight for the spot and if Te'o drops to us at 28, grab him.

Good topic Winder!


Not to question your judgement as I much more rely on other fans/analysts/scouts in terms of prospect evaluation than you do even with your - as you have said - lessened amount of college football viewing, but it seems to me that you value young, unproven and/or late round draftees on our roster more than the average fan. Now, I know that we must develop these guys and smoothen the edges but you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (yes, I had to scramble for a fitting idiom here as I can't come up with a more known one to get the message across). Every once in a while, a team stumbles upon a hidden gem but generally guys like Stevie Johnson fall for a reason. And Irving had not shown anything aside while playing at Sam.


BIG, it's okay. I'm just offering scenarios. The kids we have are talented.
Irving was a 3rd rd pick and Bill parcells thought he was a steal.

They've both found a way onto an NFL roster and contributed. Both of 'em ST Studs.

My question to you would be, why do you feel a college player, never having faced NFL competition is a better option than those that have? Thats a trap man.

happens a lot in the trenches. Great college DT's get swamped by NFL OG's with a handpunch that'll knock you into next Tuesday. probably n ot a bigger fail rate in the NFL than #1 draft pick DT's.
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoinGermany wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
Fantastic question Winder! Now that you've started it, I think you should continue every so often with different positions. Lots of good discussions are there.

As far as MLB, yeah, it's a need but is the answer already on our roster? Loved what I saw from Johnson in preseason . Kid's always around the ball. Watching irving. kids a stud. Seems to like the contact and likes the play at the LOS.

I don't watch much college ball anymore but I did make it a point to watch a bunch of Te'o. If he's there at 28 ya gotta take him. I'm probably in the minority but I see him as a difference maker and "elite".

Not sure Ogletree or Minter would be that much of an upgrade over what we already have.

My opinion? Keep Brooking for one more season, let Irving and Johnson fight for the spot and if Te'o drops to us at 28, grab him.

Good topic Winder!


Not to question your judgement as I much more rely on other fans/analysts/scouts in terms of prospect evaluation than you do even with your - as you have said - lessened amount of college football viewing, but it seems to me that you value young, unproven and/or late round draftees on our roster more than the average fan. Now, I know that we must develop these guys and smoothen the edges but you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (yes, I had to scramble for a fitting idiom here as I can't come up with a more known one to get the message across). Every once in a while, a team stumbles upon a hidden gem but generally guys like Stevie Johnson fall for a reason. And Irving has not shown anything aside while playing at Sam. We need to draft an anchor at MLB. There are four guys to go after high and a couple of prospects in the middle rounds worth a look. Brooking and potentially Uracher won't do it anymore. The way Denver has neglected the MLB positions is similar to the way the DT position has been ignored (until last year). This needs to stop. Even in a somewhat down year position wise. Let's face it, Te'o, Ogletree, Minter and Brown are no Kuechly but still really good linebackers.


Irving had a first round grade by some, including Bill Parcells. There is definitely talent there, but he was a developmental guy only a year removed from his bad accident. His playing time so far has been extremely limited. I think he's in a backseat type role, learning. This year we find out what he's got, and depending on our acquisitions this offseason in FA and Draft, what the Front Office and Coaching Staff really thinks of him. My hopes remain high, based on a limited view.

AK sure does love his prospects though, can't blame him. That's one of the fun parts of following sports - prospect development - and probably a big factor in what brought many of us here to this site.
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Winder23


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:
Its a big need. Williams has a pretty large cap hit and he doesnt just have problems, he has a subscription. Mays is also overpaid and likely to be released or asked to restructure. Brooking I think is retiring? Not really sure what his plans are.
So its a need and people need to be brought in. I don't think you need to get a draft pick on a guy or sign a very good one. But you need to get someone or a few people that can contribute there and not be a liability. It a big hole everyone is looking for that answer longterm and it doenst look like its there and you shouldnt reach on a guy. get some solid vets and continue from there.

As for nickle LBers being more important I disagree. A good MLB can really make a defense better. Great run stopping MLB can make a team have to favor the pass and being solid in coverage helps. As pocket passing QBs having a guy blow up the gaps up the middle and taking away the ability to step up in the pocker will force faster throws w/ no place to step up and Miller rushing around edge.
Woodyard had a great season playing that role in the nickle last year. He had almost 6 sacks in the same way you just described.

I agree with you on the x's and o's, but I disagree that it has to come from your MLB. With teams spreading defenses out and passing more, the abilty to run and cover has become the most important attribute of a linebacker. You have to have a player who can come in your base and step up against the run, but he doesn't have to be a three down player.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
sure does love his prospects though, can't blame him. .


Elliot, I absolutely do! Loved Rod Smith's pre season stuff. Fan of keith Burns forever.

Not all prospects pan out, but neither do draft picks. Last year, CJ was clearly a better option than Blake.

Was always a WW fan and Harris has shown you don't need to be drafted to be able to play. Harris and WW are far past "marginal" and will have better careers than many of the 270+- kids drafted before them.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
I don't watch much college ball anymore but I did make it a point to watch a bunch of Te'o. If he's there at 28 ya gotta take him. I'm probably in the minority but I see him as a difference maker and "elite".

I think the exact opposite. That'd be a pretty big reach imo. I dont see an elite player. I see at best a role player. I dont think he's going to be a good player in coverage. He has great hands and has picks in college but so did Spikes but both I dont think lack speed to be a good cover LBer. He could end up being decent at it. BUt watching guys like Willis, Spikes, Lewis ect.. they have this atmosphere around them of bloodlust and you can just see them blow through gaps and just tackle violently.
AKRNA wrote:

My question to you would be, why do you feel a college player, never having faced NFL competition is a better option than those that have? Thats a trap man.

Its more risk reward but you need to look at who you're comparing them to. If I'm comparing Justin Hunter to AJ Green and saying Hunter is going to be better I'm probably a bit delusional. If I'm looking at Stedman Bailey and saying he's better than Deion Branch I think the argument is there and I'd rather roll dice w/ Bailey being better than stick w/ Branch.
I agree w/ the fact you shouldn't just rely on a rook to come in and be the only answer and not have depth. Depth is ideal in any scenario.

As for your second
AKRNA wrote:

happens a lot in the trenches. Great college DT's get swamped by NFL OG's with a handpunch that'll knock you into next Tuesday. probably n ot a bigger fail rate in the NFL than #1 draft pick DT's.

Depends on how you're defining fail. If you define it as just burning out I'd say QBs. A lot of these DTs taken high that bust end up being pretty solid players and have good careers. Some would define Gerard Warren as failing and he was a solid player his whole career. A lot has to do w/ lacking some physical traits or just not able to put everything together. Tyson Jackson for example wasn't like aby a lot of guys because his short arms and that's a big reason why he's not very good. Failing as of burnng out and out of the league I'd say QB or WR is the highest.
Winder23 wrote:
Donut wrote:
Its a big need. Williams has a pretty large cap hit and he doesnt just have problems, he has a subscription. Mays is also overpaid and likely to be released or asked to restructure. Brooking I think is retiring? Not really sure what his plans are.
So its a need and people need to be brought in. I don't think you need to get a draft pick on a guy or sign a very good one. But you need to get someone or a few people that can contribute there and not be a liability. It a big hole everyone is looking for that answer longterm and it doenst look like its there and you shouldnt reach on a guy. get some solid vets and continue from there.

As for nickle LBers being more important I disagree. A good MLB can really make a defense better. Great run stopping MLB can make a team have to favor the pass and being solid in coverage helps. As pocket passing QBs having a guy blow up the gaps up the middle and taking away the ability to step up in the pocker will force faster throws w/ no place to step up and Miller rushing around edge.
Woodyard had a great season playing that role in the nickle last year. He had almost 6 sacks in the same way you just described.

I agree with you on the x's and o's, but I disagree that it has to come from your MLB. With teams spreading defenses out and passing more, the abilty to run and cover has become the most important attribute of a linebacker. You have to have a player who can come in your base and step up against the run, but he doesn't have to be a three down player.

I prefer it to be a 3 down player from LBers. Woodyard did a good job attacking up the middle but its better to have more than one guy do it and Woodyard still is a good cover LBer(better at that than run defense). I prefer MLB that can shoot the gaps and plays the down hill style. If having more of a run stopper allows things to happen and Woodyard can be able to do more.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Told ya we'd get a good discussion here.

Donut and I disagree on Te'o, thats okay. he may be right that fail rates for top drafted QB's is higher than DT's. Maybe, but thats okay.

Difference of opinions is what I like. It'd be a very boring world if we all agreed and this forum would suck!

Come on Winder, commit to doing this for all positions. I'll bet you'd even get jonnyj20 involved. Wink
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To offer your question bluntly - YES. Now, to which direction we go is the question and the debate.

Id be all for keeping DJ around to play the MLB but his price tag is really high.
Id be all for trying Irving/Johnson at MLB but the inexperience on a Super Bowl caliber team, makes me nervous.
Id be all for drafting Manti Te'o but I dont think he will last to #28.

Theres so many options we can go, and as AKRNA said, Id even be ok to keep Brooking around and go DT in the first, pushing MLB to next year.
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Winder23


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are my evaluations of 4 MLB's that are often discussed on the Broncos forum. I will preface this by saying that I don't think any of these four players are worth a first round pick.

Arthur Brown - Great speed and instincts. Does a nice job in short zone coverages and running sideline to sideline. Cannot shed blocks and needs to tackle better. He too often lunges at the ball carrier. Does not look the part of MLB. I can see him as a smaller SAM, but his NFL position should and most likely will be WLB in a 4-3.

Alec Ogletree - A big hitter and good athlete. Seems to be around the ball alot. He is too tall and thin though. Needs to add bulk to play inside. His height makes him play too upright. He is easily defeated by blockers inside. He also seems to have alot of wasted movements, which often gets him out of position. My least favorite of these four prospects. Doesn't show much passion for the game.

Manti Teo - Does a nice job shedding blocks and defending the run. Excels in short zone coverage due to his instincts, which are excellent. My biggest concern is speed and quickness. He got away with it in college, but I am concerned NFL TE's and RB's will run away from him. He may be limited to a two down run stuffer that can play in short zones. That to me does not merit a first round pick.

Kevin Minter - Good speed and instincts. A very assignment sound player. Really closes in on ball carrier. His short are quickness is evident in all the tape I watched on him. The knock on Minter would be taking on blocks. He has improved, but still can be negated in the run game. He will need some big bodies in front of him to play MLB. He also occassionaly gets fooled by play action and misdirection, but that can be coached up in film study.

If one these players were to fall to our spot in the second round, I would jump on them. However, none of them are first round talents. Too many question marks for me. Especially Ogletree, he looks so awful at times, I would beware if I were in charge.
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