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sparky151


Joined: 07 Feb 2012
Posts: 2055
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys like Ashley Ambrose or Bobbie Williams were successful with the Bengals. Heck, Reggie Nelson was signed in free agency last year.
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Beck Bristow


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We resigned Nelson last year after trading for him the year before.
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sparky151


Joined: 07 Feb 2012
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Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beck Bristow wrote:
We resigned Nelson last year after trading for him the year before.


Yes, but he entered free agency last year and was free to sign anywhere. He visited the Jets as you may remember before the Bengals won a bidding war and the Jets fell back to LaRon Landry.
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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Location: London, England, UK
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky151 wrote:
If we lost MJ, I think we could re-sign Wallace and Rucker and be ok.


Is being 'OK' good enough ?
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3439
Location: London, England, UK
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky151 wrote:
Guys like Ashley Ambrose or Bobbie Williams were successful with the Bengals. Heck, Reggie Nelson was signed in free agency last year.


Bobbie W; great success ? Possibly. Reggie Nelson ? Maybe. Its not a long list though is it, considering the money often laid out on these guys ?

I was just suggesting perhaps it makes more sense to 'keep your own guys' and maybe pay a little over market rate, rather than take a chance on losing them for an unknown guy. What did we learn from losing JJoe ? Its a fair point to argue that Andre Smith or MJ aren't worth $8,9,10M per, but you have to look at the alternatives, and often that doesn't look too good, when we only tend to look at 2nd, 3rd tier vet FA's, and we have so much cap space.

This time last year we were strong on having a serious tilt at 'big-ticket' guys like Carl Nicks and Ben Grubbs, and we ended up looking at guys like Lutui and Wharton.

Is anyone expecting Andre or MJ to get a deal done before FA starts ?
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sparky151


Joined: 07 Feb 2012
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Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
sparky151 wrote:
Guys like Ashley Ambrose or Bobbie Williams were successful with the Bengals. Heck, Reggie Nelson was signed in free agency last year.


Bobbie W; great success ? Possibly. Reggie Nelson ? Maybe. Its not a long list though is it, considering the money often laid out on these guys ?

I was just suggesting perhaps it makes more sense to 'keep your own guys' and maybe pay a little over market rate, rather than take a chance on losing them for an unknown guy. What did we learn from losing JJoe ? Its a fair point to argue that Andre Smith or MJ aren't worth $8,9,10M per, but you have to look at the alternatives, and often that doesn't look too good, when we only tend to look at 2nd, 3rd tier vet FA's, and we have so much cap space.

This time last year we were strong on having a serious tilt at 'big-ticket' guys like Carl Nicks and Ben Grubbs, and we ended up looking at guys like Lutui and Wharton.

Is anyone expecting Andre or MJ to get a deal done before FA starts ?


If your definition of great success is wining a Superbowl as teams did when signing Reggie White, Deion Sanders, or Drew Brees, then we all know the answer to that. If you mean being happy with the results of the signing, then the Bengals have some that qualify. Marvin's first year we signed DT Thornton, LB Hardy, and CB James. Those guys weren't elite but they were solid vets for a while and helped the team improve a lot in 2003.
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sparky151


Joined: 07 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
sparky151 wrote:
If we lost MJ, I think we could re-sign Wallace and Rucker and be ok.


Is being 'OK' good enough ?


I'd be ok with signing Gilberry and Rucker, letting MJ leave and spending the money elsewhere. Rucker is a better run defender than MJ, which is why he started ahead of MJ during 2011. Gilberry is a better pass rusher, at least last year in terms of snaps per sack. If we knew what the offense was going to do and could substitute ahead of time, then we'd probably be better off. Of course offenses pass on first down and run on third down sometimes but in general I don't think MJ is indispensable. If we give MJ a big contract, then we have to give Dunlap one too or prepare to replace him. Same for Geno. We can probably afford 2 big D-line contracts but not 3.
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INbengalfan


Joined: 21 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky151 wrote:
I'd be ok with signing Gilberry and Rucker, letting MJ leave and spending the money elsewhere. Rucker is a better run defender than MJ, which is why he started ahead of MJ during 2011. Gilberry is a better pass rusher, at least last year in terms of snaps per sack. If we knew what the offense was going to do and could substitute ahead of time, then we'd probably be better off. Of course offenses pass on first down and run on third down sometimes but in general I don't think MJ is indispensable. If we give MJ a big contract, then we have to give Dunlap one too or prepare to replace him. Same for Geno. We can probably afford 2 big D-line contracts but not 3.


Where are they going to spend it? Overpay some mid level guy to come here? No thanks. This team is set up to pay Smith and MJ this year, as well as extend Adkins and Dunlap. Put a bunch into this year, but not have the cap hit in subsequent years. next year, with the free space, sign Dalton and Green.

As for saying Rucker started over MJ, well that's half true at best. Yes, Rucker played on first downs, but Johnson came in unless it was short yeardage to go. Same thing happened with Dunlap and Geathers. Just because someone plays first down dioesn't automaticsally make them the true "starter". This isn't baseball. Players on this team sub in and out based on situation.

And Gilberry is better than MJ based on sacks per play? That's rather narrow-minded, don't you think? But hey, I can make stats say anything I want them to say, so OK. Maybe you would like to offer him 6 million instead of giving it to Johnson. Again, your choice. But I wouldn't do it.
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sparky151


Joined: 07 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INbengalfan wrote:
sparky151 wrote:
I'd be ok with signing Gilberry and Rucker, letting MJ leave and spending the money elsewhere. Rucker is a better run defender than MJ, which is why he started ahead of MJ during 2011. Gilberry is a better pass rusher, at least last year in terms of snaps per sack. If we knew what the offense was going to do and could substitute ahead of time, then we'd probably be better off. Of course offenses pass on first down and run on third down sometimes but in general I don't think MJ is indispensable. If we give MJ a big contract, then we have to give Dunlap one too or prepare to replace him. Same for Geno. We can probably afford 2 big D-line contracts but not 3.


Where are they going to spend it? Overpay some mid level guy to come here? No thanks. This team is set up to pay Smith and MJ this year, as well as extend Adkins and Dunlap. Put a bunch into this year, but not have the cap hit in subsequent years. next year, with the free space, sign Dalton and Green.

As for saying Rucker started over MJ, well that's half true at best. Yes, Rucker played on first downs, but Johnson came in unless it was short yeardage to go. Same thing happened with Dunlap and Geathers. Just because someone plays first down dioesn't automaticsally make them the true "starter". This isn't baseball. Players on this team sub in and out based on situation.

And Gilberry is better than MJ based on sacks per play? That's rather narrow-minded, don't you think? But hey, I can make stats say anything I want them to say, so OK. Maybe you would like to offer him 6 million instead of giving it to Johnson. Again, your choice. But I wouldn't do it.


Not to play Hobnob here but the team doesn't have as much cap space as some think. We can afford to keep MJ and Andre and re-sign most of the other guys. We can probably extend one of Geno or Dunlap but will be hard pressed to extend the other next year along with Gresham, Dalton, and maybe Green.

The team is about 55 mil under the cap for 2013. If we pay Andre 7.5, MJ 9, then extend Dunlap for 9 and Geno for 11, we're looking at 36.5 spent with 25 more free agents to go. Also worth noting is that of our 55 mil in cap space 8.5 comes from not spending to the cap in 2012. We can spend those dollars like any other but would then be on pace to be above the cap and having to cut in 2014, when we're trying to get the 3 offensive players extended. The Bengals already have 1 of the more imbalanced salary splits between defense and offense in the league. Most teams pay their offenses more but the Bengals don't at the moment with some low priced guys and rookies. That won't last.

Gilberry probably won't be expensive because he's bounced around the league and was a part time player. MJ had 6 sacks in 2011 then 11.5 in 2012. That looks like a leap in production and it is but 5 of last year's sacks came in 2 games against backup LTs. Gilberry had his 6.5 sacks in fewer snaps than MJ got the year before. In fact Gilberry replaced MJ in some passing situations. So I feel comfortable with a Gilberry/Rucker combo plus a free agent safety compared with keeping MJ, probably losing Dunlap, and re-signing a couple lower priced guys. If we want to upgrade at safety to someone like Moore or Goldson or Byrd, the price is probably not re-signing one of our expensive guys.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky151 wrote:
We can probably afford 2 big D-line contracts but not 3.


Which argues strongly for drafting a top DE this April, right ?
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sparky151


Joined: 07 Feb 2012
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Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
sparky151 wrote:
We can probably afford 2 big D-line contracts but not 3.


Which argues strongly for drafting a top DE this April, right ?


If we lose MJ then sure. If we keep him, then we also have Carlos for another year and it's a less pressing need. It also depends on whether we bring back Geathers and Gilberry.
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