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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 23060
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Spikes wrote:
it is at his age [played just 7 games last season] and he isn't built at all like a SS... for the most part i only see him joining the Patriots if he agrees to a below the market deal in order to play slot CB.


He's not really built any differently than a lot of guys the Pats have played at SS recently - Tavon Wilson, Brandon Meriweather, Pat Chung, James Sanders, James Ihedigbo.

Other than Josh Barrett and Rodney Harrison, the Pats haven't really had too many guys who were "prototype" size SS (6'2 215+). Mostly they've been 5'11 - 6'1 between 200-210 lbs. That's pretty much where Woodson is, and it doesn't look like he's lost much (if any) mass in the last few years.

The safety spots have mostly been interchangeable in terms of physical abilities in New England.

You make a good point about his body possibly being unable to handle the physical toll of playing safety, but I do think his skills and build would be fine to play SS in New England.
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Billy Spikes


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the use of those players didn't work out, that's why a William Moore or a Kenny Phillips or even a LaRon Landry is what we need for our defense [i won't mention Byrd or Goldson who will likley get tag and are smaller].

Either way, we can't enter the season expecting Woodson to be the full time starter at Strong Safety for a number of reasons, durability been one.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Spikes wrote:
And the use of those players didn't work out, that's why a William Moore or a Kenny Phillips or even a LaRon Landry is what we need for our defense [i won't mention Byrd or Goldson who will likley get tag and are smaller].




William Moore and Kenny Phillips are excellent players. The guys the Pats have used have been mediocre to poor players. It has lessto do with size and much more to do with football IQ, instincts, etc.

I haven't see much - other than the failed Barrett experiment - to suggest that the Pats want an old-school style strong safety. That they keep converting free safeties over to SS tells me they value the coverage abilities of their SS more than the stereotypical hard hitting, in the box breed. Steve Gregory is tiny compared to these other guys (5'11, 185) but the Pats signed him to be their starting SS (where he played in San Diego) and started him all year.

I would think that if they thought they needed or wanted the type (in terms of body composition) that you're suggesting, they would have tried bringing in guys like that. Instead, they've opted for a whole host of shorter, more athletic guys.

Who knows, maybe they'll change their perspective based on last year, but right now I would assume the opening day strong safety will be in the same physical mold as almost all of the other guys they've used there since Harrison.

Edit: FWIW, Kenny Phillips is almost exactly the same size as DaShon Goldson
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Billy Spikes


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was that it didn't work out, haven't had a real good starting SS since Harrison who was of course the prototypical size for the position and they might look at Moore or Phillips in free-agency since they offer the size and coverage ability, especially Phillips [who's biggest problem is injuries], i don't see them signing Woodson with the intention of making him our starting SS at all.

mcmurtry86 wrote:
[Edit: FWIW, Kenny Phillips is almost exactly the same size as DaShon Goldson


I was talking about Byrd smaller and Goldson been probably tagged. [Byrd is also likely to be tagged]

But either way, according to most websites Goldson is 6-2 and only 200 pounds compare to Phillips who's 217 pounds at 6-2, big difference, even if Goldson got bigger since it was last updated. [although those things do get updated every once in awhile]
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Spikes wrote:
My point was that it didn't work out, haven't had a real good starting SS since Harrison who was of course the prototypical size for the position and they might look at Moore or Phillips in free-agency since they offer the size and coverage ability, especially Phillips [who's biggest problem is injuries], i don't see them signing Woodson with the intention of making him our starting SS at all.

mcmurtry86 wrote:
[Edit: FWIW, Kenny Phillips is almost exactly the same size as DaShon Goldson


I was talking about Byrd smaller and Goldson been probably tagged. [Byrd is also likely to be tagged]

But either way, according to most websites Goldson is 6-2 and only 200 pounds compare to Phillips who's 217 pounds at 6-2, big difference, even if Goldson got bigger since it was last updated. [although those things do get updated every once in awhile]


PFR has Goldson at 205 and Phillips at 208. Who knows/cares, it's pretty irrelevant.

My real point was that I don't think the team puts much stock on height/weight for a safety and really just looks for a guy who is versatile and athletic. I don't think they'd bring in a SS who couldn't also handle FS which is why their safeties are often pretty similar in build.
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Billy Spikes


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Goldson at 205 and Phillips at 208.


According to main websites Phillips is 217 and Goldson is 200.

http://www.nfl.com/player/dashongoldson/2495611/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/kennyphillips/1375/profile

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/10569/dashon-goldson
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11265/kenny-phillips

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8808
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8380

mcmurtry86 wrote:
My real point was that I don't think the team puts much stock on height/weight for a safety and really just looks for a guy who is versatile and athletic. I don't think they'd bring in a SS who couldn't also handle FS which is why their safeties are often pretty similar in build.


They haven't since Harrison for the most part and it didn't work, that was my point, time to go back to a more prototypical SS at the position, watching RBs bounce off Gregory like he's not even there was horrible, and even we just put that in the "Gregory is simply a bad player category", as we mentioned, no player who is undersize for the position as worked for the Patriots.

I simply don't expect the Patriots sign Charles Woodson to be the starting strong safety next season, Phillips is a guy who is only 26-years old and is versatile to play either Safety position.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Spikes wrote:

They haven't since Harrison for the most part and it didn't work, that was my point, time to go back to a more prototypical SS at the position.


Has it not worked because of the scheme? The weight of the players involved? Or the fact that the quality of player -regardless of height/weight - has been very poor?

You're assuming the problem is that they're using guys who aren't a specific size. The real problem is that they're using guys who are fringe NFL players.

They don't really use their SS in a way which requires a 6'2 220 safety. I know Belichick has spoken several times about his safeties having similar responsibilities and being mostly interchangeable. If you think they need to go back to Harrison type guy, that's fine. But I don't expect it to happen (barring excellent value on a top talent), nor do I think that Woodson would be a poor fit at SS based on what we know of the team/coaching staff/personnel evaluators.

Ideally, they'd have a guy who is an elite talent and can do it all - run, hit, cover, catch etc. Obviously those guys are rare and expensive. My opinion, based on what I've seen from Belichick over the last 12 years, is that if they're going to go cheap/mid-range price (whether free agent dollars or draft capital), they're going to go for an interchangeable part. A SS who can either slide to slot or flip to FS. I don't see them going for a "prototype" SS unless it's an absolute top end guy, and there aren't many of those out there. Moore is an option, but he has many of the same questions about his ability to hold up as Woodson does. There's no way I'd hand him a big contract given his injury issues.

There's nothing about Charles Woodson's skillset that indicates he couldn't play SS in New England based on the way the position has been schemed by Belichick, Patricia et al over the last half decade. That's really the place where we disagree I guess.
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Billy Spikes


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Has it not worked because of the scheme? The weight of the players involved? Or the fact that the quality of player -regardless of height/weight - has been very poor?


The quality of the players hasn't been very good but the poor performances at the position could be because of the miss-usage of players who aren't build for the position.

Having smaller players who can possibly run better cost you in run support and more importantly TE coverage, slot WR coverage and endzone defense. And that is where we saw struggle the past few years, it never seemed like the Patriots defenses got beat for 60+ yard TDs in single plays, which could be why Belichick preferred the faster-smaller guys, since they can cover the deep part of the field but the Patriots get beat in many different ways by TE's, slot receivers and medium range completions. [the last one is because of the poor quality of the players who played for us, they never read the play in time to get in position to make plays on those type of passes]

mcmurtry86 wrote:
There's nothing about Charles Woodson's skillset that indicates he couldn't play SS in New England based on the way the position has been schemed by Belichick, Patricia et al over the last half decade. That's really the place where we disagree I guess.


Again, i don't see how he can at 200 pounds, 6-1 play well against TEs when asked to cover, i don't see how with his advance age he can close in or get deep over the top because he clearly lost a few steps last season and i don't see how his thin-CB type body [although for a CB, he has an above-average type of body] be able to actually play SS for an NFL season, he already dealt with injuries out of the FS position last season, he played less than half the year.

Edit:
We can just agree to disagree here.
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spr217


Joined: 28 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mcmurtry86"]
spr217 wrote:
Any idea how much William Moore might cost if he doesn't get tagged by Atlanta? He's my number one free agent for the Pats this offseason, I was hoping we could get him for around $5 million. Also, what might the market for Brent Grimes look like considering his injury history? An Achilles is a major injury, he may never be the same, but I'd still be far more comfortable signing him at $8-9 million a year over Talib, who has also has injury concerns in addition to being a major liability off the field.




I like Moore a lot, but given his injury problems and the price tag - I just don't see the value.

I was inquiring what that price tag might be. It's very difficult to assess what players would be feasible for them to look at given the constraints of the salary cap. Cap space has been estimated to be between 15 and 18 million, and I would be more than comfortable with them spending the bulk of that money on the defensive backfield. What type of market each player might generate will play a large role in determining whether or not they could be acquired, which is why I asked about the price tag. The injury concerns for both players, particularly Grimes, are legitimate, however a number one corner at a discount may be a risk worth taking. It would be a far less risky proposition than giving Talib a multi year contract.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spr217 wrote:
It would be a far less risky proposition than giving Talib a multi year contract.


This is only true if you can get Grimes at a 1 year, small money deal. I don't foresee that happening.

Given how tight the Pats cap situation is, I would be against any contract for him over 2 years or over $3M.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it makes little sense to spend big on a FA this off season, Re-sign Sebastian, Aqib, Randy Moss, and Woodson/Reed/Byrd. Draft Justin Hunter at 29 (Williams and CP will be gone), and go BPA at the rest.

Moss mentoring Hunter would be straight cash homie indeed.
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reckless123 wrote:
Why would I choose No Fly Zone? Dude is the biggest Dez Bryant homer.

Hey man, NBT hasn't been doing a good enough job with his receiver homerism. Someone has to step up.
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spr217


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
spr217 wrote:
It would be a far less risky proposition than giving Talib a multi year contract.


This is only true if you can get Grimes at a 1 year, small money deal. I don't foresee that happening.

Given how tight the Pats cap situation is, I would be against any contract for him over 2 years or over $3M.


That definitely ain't going to happen. I appreciate your concern over his health given the how hard Achilles injuries are to come come back from, but I still view the CB position to be our number one need. Dennard is not a lock to return due to his legal problems, McCourty is better at safety, and we are losing Arrington and Talib (I'd honestly be shocked if they were brought back, especially Talib). In that case, who should we target? Dominque Rodgers-Cromartie (inconsistent)? Quentin Jammer (old)? Sean Smith (overpriced, seeking 8-10 million a year)?
Cary Williams might be a viable alternative but he might be expensive, especially if some team foolishly overpays for Sean Smith. If there are no attainable starting cornerbacks on the market then the team should resign Vollmer and Welker and focus almost exclusively on defense in the draft. They may be able to sign those two and upgrade the safety position in free agency and then would have to take a corner in the first round, given their inability to find talent at that position in rounds 2,3 and 4. Either way, the back end of their defense is what is holding this team back from winning another championship. It needs to be addressed.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spr217 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
spr217 wrote:
It would be a far less risky proposition than giving Talib a multi year contract.


This is only true if you can get Grimes at a 1 year, small money deal. I don't foresee that happening.

Given how tight the Pats cap situation is, I would be against any contract for him over 2 years or over $3M.


That definitely ain't going to happen. I appreciate your concern over his health given the how hard Achilles injuries are to come come back from, but I still view the CB position to be our number one need. Dennard is not a lock to return due to his legal problems, McCourty is better at safety, and we are losing Arrington and Talib (I'd honestly be shocked if they were brought back, especially Talib). In that case, who should we target? Dominque Rodgers-Cromartie (inconsistent)? Quentin Jammer (old)? Sean Smith (overpriced, seeking 8-10 million a year)?
Cary Williams might be a viable alternative but he might be expensive, especially if some team foolishly overpays for Sean Smith. If there are no attainable starting cornerbacks on the market then the team should resign Vollmer and Welker and focus almost exclusively on defense in the draft. They may be able to sign those two and upgrade the safety position in free agency and then would have to take a corner in the first round, given their inability to find talent at that position in rounds 2,3 and 4. Either way, the back end of their defense is what is holding this team back from winning another championship. It needs to be addressed.


So your argument is that the Pats need CB's because Dennard might be in jail, McCourty is at S and Talib/Arrington will be gone.

If that's the case, blowing a huge chunk of money on a guy coming off of what is usually a career-altering injury is an awful idea. What happens if Grimes isn't back to top form? You've just spent half (or a third) of your cap space in a mediocre player. You still need CB's at that point and the rest of your roster is weaker because you've invested so much in Grimes.

I appreciate being concerned about the secondary, though that's not what is holding the team back IMO. What I don't understand is trying to fix that hole by giving big money to a guy coming off of an Achilles injury.

Anything more than a short term/low money deal for Grimes is a really poor use of resources for this team given his injury and the cap situation the Pats have.
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McMurtry: You combated everybody's opinion so far. Why don't you give us an opinion, and not a feedback?
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Logan Ryan will be the steal of the draft.


Aite,

peace.
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NextBigThing


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murts nows MOSS is the only FA we really need to bring in! Very Happy
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NoFlyZone wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Why would I choose No Fly Zone? Dude is the biggest Dez Bryant homer.

Hey man, NBT hasn't been doing a good enough job with his receiver homerism. Someone has to step up.
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