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Upcoming draft - final pieces or looming debacle?
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 7034
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Brownsalltheway wrote:
roger murdock wrote:
I highly doubt they are evaluating his talent. I'm sure they are evaluating his worth. Will it be worth spending 3-5M to keep one of the best kickers, when you can get a guy off the street to do 80% of what Dawson does for 400k?

That is a tough question. They all know Dawson is good. If they could lock him down for cheap I guarantee they would.


I think this is the key statement in this entire thread. If we don't retain Phil Dawson, it has little to do with his talent and everything to do with his value. As you said, why pay a couple million to a guy when recent history shows that taking one of the better kickers in the later rounds of the draft can net you great gains?

I love Phil, and I love that he has been a trooper all these years. He's sort of like that one character in a running movie series or video game series that makes it into every one, like Eugene Levy in the American Pie movies or Cid from the Final Fantasy games.

But there comes a time when that stuff must end, and I really feel like 2013 will be it.

I've got a creeping suspicion that no free agents will be retained before free agency kicks off.


+1

That having been said, I hope the ownership and FO sees their way clear to giving Dawson a 2 year contract that will let him set records, win something meaningful and otherwise go out as the best K the Cleveland Browns ever have had.


Amen. And you know, how much of a boost would that be to all of Browns land if Dawson kicks in a playoff win?

Oh, grats on 5K posts bruce. Very Happy


Thanks. Never Would have imagined I had spent that much time on this stuff if you hadn't told me! Razz
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StewieRules


Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1649
Location: jacksonville
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Props to the 5,000 mark, even if I don't agree with all em Wink

Bottom line, we're all fans of this franchise and we all care so .... keep the posts & arguments and rants from all sides coming!
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bigdogsandiego


Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 782
Location: San Diego
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In reality, Browns will get one stud starter with 1st pick(probably DE/LB) and a CB/S with 3rd pick who will play a lot of minutes. With the 4,5,6,7, Browns would be lucky to get starter FB, and P with 2 backups on O and D line. The idea of trading down #6 for 1st and 2nd has merit based on our needs.

FA is where the fun starts. Browns need a TE, FS, G, and speed LB. We have the money and now the question is how much do we want to overpay or how badly do we want someone.

Of course, the major decision is QB and what to do? Once the QB is determined, many other decisions will fall in place accordingly. Browns need to use the draft to build the core foundation of defense and FA to fill needs on offense.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 17097
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalcolmBrown wrote:
Every party needs as pooper, that's why we invited you!


If your party is geared toward celebrating the football acumen on Joe Banner and the team-building of Michael Lombardi, it needs to be pooped on.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
Every party needs as pooper, that's why we invited you!


If your party is geared toward celebrating the football acumen on Joe Banner and the team-building of Michael Lombardi, it needs to be pooped on.


No one, and I mean NO ONE, is doing anything even resembling that ditch.

Here's the team-building that has occurred so far:

12/18/2012: Alec Scheiner hired as President; To Run Business Side
01/10/2013: Rob Chudzinski hired as Head Coach
01/17/2013: Norv Turner hired as Offensive Coordinator
01/18/2013: Ray Horton hired as Defensive Coordinator
01/18/2013: Mike Lombardi hired as VP of Player Personnel
02/05/2013: Browns release DE Frostee Rucker
02/13/2013: Browns sign P Spencer Lanning

If you have problems with this, you haven't really discussed it. Instead, you discuss what you think they MIGHT do in the future, which you believe will be all bad (a "debacle").

You assume a hierarchy where Banner and Lombardi will, themselves, make these horrible decisions that will destroy this 5-11 team from last year. Yet you offer nothing of substance to corroborate your belief and, in fact, you have yet to offer any substantive criticism of the decisions they have already made (listed above).

You claim that if others don't share your expectation of complete failure (debacle), then they are celebrating the individuals. Are you unaware of the rather large amount of middle ground between the two stances?

Now, don't get me wrong, I've tried to make it clear that it's certainly possible they will make mistakes. Actually, it's inevitable. Mistakes are made by all. Will these mistakes be the undoing of the current Browns leading to a reboot in 2 years? Well, only if the team is sold again.

Had Haslam not bought the team, we would, right now, be talking about who Heckert will be drafting in April. We would be debating who played the biggest part in our lack of offense. Was it Shurmur, Childress, or the players?

And I'll tell you this; I would prefer THAT situation over this one. But I would like that better because it's more familiar, more is known, and NOT because it’s inherently better.

So now, we are all in the realm of the unknown. When faced with the unknown, it's certainly reasonable to fear the worst. But geez man, it's still just fear. Will it be better? Who knows? Can it be better? Sure! Can it be worse? Well, not a whole lot worse, can it?

So look at the trends...the ones from RIGHT NOW, not the ones from other contexts...THIS CONTEXT. Tell me what you see happening, what decision are actually being made, what motivated those decisions?

When I use my own reasoning, and not that of those in the media or on football discussion boards, I see some good people coming in that have had success in the past, I see some good players on the roster, I see some good business decisions, AND I see some questionable decisions and players as well. But this was not a great team or organization before, and it hasn't been either for quite some time.

I have seen more good than bad so far. However, I'm not a fan of Lombardi. I'll be cautiously optimistic for now. Perhaps he was the guy that decided to release Rucker, it is within his job description. If so, that was a good decision, in my opinion. Same is true with the punter.

Our scouting staff is intact. It seems they have done a good job over the past few drafts. There is simply no good reason to expect them not to do as well this year. Let's not assume Lombardi or Banner will ignore them, because there simply is no reason to think that way in the first place.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 17097
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only saving grace of this offseason is the fact that scout's contracts run through May. After that, there is no doubt in my mind that the seven of them will be summarily fired by Banner and replaced by people far less qualified but better connected. My reasoning? That's exactly what he did with the GM position.

I'll agree that releasing Rucker was a good move, because you don't pay that much for a 5th D-lineman on a 3 man line who has never played in that scheme.

Signing Lanning was a decent move as well, but I have said before that the only players I trust Lombardi to evaluate are Special Teamers. Everywhere he has been has been sound in the kicking game, even if they had to spend a 1st round pick on a kicker.

I'm very pleased with the coaching staff, but could care less about the business side hires. However, all that is moot when it comes to the question posed by the OP regarding the upcoming draft.

I believe that Joe Banner is out of his element when it comes to evaluating draftable players, and I believe that Mike Lombardi has proven over a very long period to be a complete moron when it comes to the draft.

There is no evidence I have seen that points to the contrary. That is why I believe that this draft is a looming debacle.

If you have any evidence in your encyclopedia of Banner/Lombardi knowledge that proves they will be sound decision-makers on draft day, please, by all means share.
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mistakebytehlak


Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 45649
Location: Brooklyn, NY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
I agree with Ditch, he is a smart man.



...Can I have your Cribbs jersey?




And no, you can't have my 16. You wouldn't want it anyway. It has a smell that hasn't come out no matter how many times it's been washed.


which most likely started at 150 west maynard
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 17097
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
I agree with Ditch, he is a smart man.



...Can I have your Cribbs jersey?




And no, you can't have my 16. You wouldn't want it anyway. It has a smell that hasn't come out no matter how many times it's been washed.


which most likely started at 150 west maynard


If I told you it's only been washed once since then, would you believe me?
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
The only saving grace of this offseason is the fact that scout's contracts run through May. After that, there is no doubt in my mind that the seven of them will be summarily fired by Banner and replaced by people far less qualified but better connected. My reasoning? That's exactly what he did with the GM position.

I'll agree that releasing Rucker was a good move, because you don't pay that much for a 5th D-lineman on a 3 man line who has never played in that scheme.

Signing Lanning was a decent move as well, but I have said before that the only players I trust Lombardi to evaluate are Special Teamers. Everywhere he has been has been sound in the kicking game, even if they had to spend a 1st round pick on a kicker.

I'm very pleased with the coaching staff, but could care less about the business side hires. However, all that is moot when it comes to the question posed by the OP regarding the upcoming draft.

I believe that Joe Banner is out of his element when it comes to evaluating draftable players, and I believe that Mike Lombardi has proven over a very long period to be a complete moron when it comes to the draft.

There is no evidence I have seen that points to the contrary. That is why I believe that this draft is a looming debacle.

If you have any evidence in your encyclopedia of Banner/Lombardi knowledge that proves they will be sound decision-makers on draft day, please, by all means share.


So you believe that Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi will be the key players in evaluating draftable players. Is this what your encyclopedia of Banner/Lombardi knowledge tells you?

Perhaps you can cite us some excerpts.

Tell us how you know that naming Lombardi the VPPP was just a ruse to mask his all-encompassing power over the draft.

I did ask you before about which football operations you claim that Lombardi had been in charge of, I never got your answer. It was none, right?

By the way, Grossi reported that he got the feeling, from Haslam himself, that Chud and Norv will have more say on Weeden than Banner or Lombardi. He had asked Haslam what would happen if Banner and Lombardi didn't like Weeden but Chud and Norv thought they could win with him. Haslam's respone, according to Grossi, was that Chud and Norv make the call.

So, I'll ask again, what makes you think that Chud, Norv, Horton, and the scouts will not be the MAIN players regarding the evaluation of draftable players?

What makes you think that Lombardi's main role ISN"T PRO PERSONNEL?

What makes you think Banner's role is "roster building"?

Please spell it out for us that are not privy to your Banner/Lombardi encyclopedia. (bet you regret using that one on me now Wink )
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 17097
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a guy who points out gray areas in nearly every debate, you sure are pretty black & white on this one.

Haslam "gets the feeling"? Why wouldn't he know? If he's right, how qualified are Chud and Norv Turner to be making our draft picks?

Consider all my questions rhetorical. That's what I'm doing with yours.

Except these:

Entropy wrote:
1. what makes you think that Chud, Norv, Horton, and the scouts will not be the MAIN players regarding the evaluation of draftable players?

2. What makes you think that Lombardi's main role ISN"T PRO PERSONNEL?

3. What makes you think Banner's role is "roster building"?


1. Evaluation and Selection are two different animals.

2. Because his title is Vice President of Player Personnel and Haslam called him the team's GM in his introduction.

3. Nothing makes me think that. That's Lombardi's specialty according to Banner.

Any further information from the encyclopedia is now on a Pay Per View basis. Credit Cards and Money Orders accepted.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
For a guy who points out gray areas in nearly every debate, you sure are pretty black & white on this one.

Haslam "gets the feeling"? Why wouldn't he know? If he's right, how qualified are Chud and Norv Turner to be making our draft picks?

Consider all my questions rhetorical. That's what I'm doing with yours.

Except these:

Entropy wrote:
1. what makes you think that Chud, Norv, Horton, and the scouts will not be the MAIN players regarding the evaluation of draftable players?

2. What makes you think that Lombardi's main role ISN"T PRO PERSONNEL?

3. What makes you think Banner's role is "roster building"?


1. Evaluation and Selection are two different animals.

2. Because his title is Vice President of Player Personnel and Haslam called him the team's GM in his introduction.

3. Nothing makes me think that. That's Lombardi's specialty according to Banner.

Any further information from the encyclopedia is now on a Pay Per View basis. Credit Cards and Money Orders accepted.


On which areas do you think I'm "black and white"? (not rhetorical)

1. Yes, of course. However, that doesn't mean that Chud, Norv, Horton, and the scouts will not be the MAIN players regarding the evaluation AND selection of draftable players.

2. No, he didn't... Banner introduced him...
Quote:
So I introduce with pleasure and confidence our new Vice President of Player Personnel, Mike Lombardi.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/01/cleveland_browns_transcript_of.html

3. Not really... Banner said
Quote:
I think he has a good eye for scouts as well as having a good eye for talent. That’s what drove the decision


You seem to generalize too much.

Quote:
Banner

(On who will have the final authority over all the major roster questions)- “We didn’t anticipate that question (joking). Our answer is still the same. We’re going to have a group that’s now rounded out, that’s going to collaborate on these decisions and we’re going to try to drive to consensus. I think we probably won’t do things which we don’t have consensus so we really won’t ever get into a, ‘Who has final say?’ My experience is that when you have a group of people that are spending a lot of time studying something, they’re smart and they’re in an environment where it’s free to state your opinion or disagree, that when everybody can get to the same consensus your chances of being right are extremely high so that’s what we’re going to try to get to.”


Lombardi is NOT building the roster, nor has anyone said it was his specialty.

I'll say this about Lombardi, he has a large number of contacts in the NFL that seem to like him. I don't see that hurting one bit.

Perhaps you should revise your answers?

Oh, and would you consider a barter for more encyclopedic access? I have 3 chickens, cherry pez, and some shiny rocks.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watch the press conference on the link you provided.

Haslam's first comments.

"When Joe and I started talking about what we wanted for our General Manager, we talked about two things. One, and outstanding player evlauator. OK. And I think that's probably a given in the General Manager's role. The second thing we wanted, though, and I think something that a lot of people candidly overlook, is we wanted somebody that understood how to put together a team."

Mentioned General Manager twice just in that clip. Gleaning from the transcript, Haslam mentioned the title General Manager four times in his statement. Banner is the one seemingly bent on confusing roles by altering titles.

Banner also said, "I feel like I have firsthand knowledge on his ability to evaluate players, which is the most important thing he’s going to do, as I could possibly have on anybody we were going to hire."

and "A lot of what differentiated Mike, as Jimmy mentioned, the idea of building teams versus picking players. There are a lot of teams in the league that pick players and don’t really have a clear understanding of the difference between doing that and assembling a team where people complement each other."

So gleaning from his statements, Lombardi is the most important person in the organization regarding player evaluation, and that evaluation is based off how the player fits with the team (whatever that means) rather than sheer talent alone.

Stop me when any of this starts worrying you too.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are they egg chickens or meat chickens? I will take the pez, though.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Watch the press conference on the link you provided.

Haslam's first comments.

"When Joe and I started talking about what we wanted for our General Manager, we talked about two things. One, and outstanding player evlauator. OK. And I think that's probably a given in the General Manager's role. The second thing we wanted, though, and I think something that a lot of people candidly overlook, is we wanted somebody that understood how to put together a team."

Mentioned General Manager twice just in that clip. Gleaning from the transcript, Haslam mentioned the title General Manager four times in his statement. Banner is the one seemingly bent on confusing roles by altering titles.

Banner also said, "I feel like I have firsthand knowledge on his ability to evaluate players, which is the most important thing he’s going to do, as I could possibly have on anybody we were going to hire."

and "A lot of what differentiated Mike, as Jimmy mentioned, the idea of building teams versus picking players. There are a lot of teams in the league that pick players and don’t really have a clear understanding of the difference between doing that and assembling a team where people complement each other."

So gleaning from his statements, Lombardi is the most important person in the organization regarding player evaluation, and that evaluation is based off how the player fits with the team (whatever that means) rather than sheer talent alone.

Stop me when any of this starts worrying you too.


First off, of course I'm concerned/worried/experiencing anxiety/whatever. Yet again, we face the unknown future of a new regime. There's plenty of cause for worry simply in the change that has occurred.

But honestly, there is nothing that says "Lombardi is the most important person in the organization regarding player evaluation".

There are statements that clearly say that those that hired him believe he's very good at evaluation and understanding the difference between "picking players" and picking players that fit a team. How horrible, right? (rhetorical)

You generalized this to a belief that he now has the most "say", contrary to what they actually said.

It seems your entire problem is with Lombardi. So look at him more objectively and tell me what he's done so far that you disagree with. (not rhetorical)

Oh, and the chickens were neither. They are 3 marshmallow peeps, barely used. And I'll withdraw my offer of the shiny rocks, I found a buyer in Pittsburgh.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
It seems your entire problem is with Lombardi. So look at him more objectively and tell me what he's done so far that you disagree with. (not rhetorical)


He's been hired. Same problem I have with Banner. I'll update you as the year goes on, but it's hard to get past those two mistakes.
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