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Upcoming draft - final pieces or looming debacle?
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cattleman78


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 6841
Location: ohio
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
cattleman78 wrote:
When Tony Grossi [that's who I think it was] asked Haslim about signing Dawson I lost a lot of faith in Haslim. Haslim's answer was they have to evaluate Dawson. I thought really Haslim and the rest of his regime are that dumb. I'm not a scout by any means but anyone who follows the Browns would know Dawson is the real thing. I really don't know what there is to evaluate on Dawson.


I assumed they were saying that about every player. If you said we are evaluating Weeden. We are evaluating the receivers. You can't say, yeah of course we are resigning Dawson. I think it is mostly political talk.


I get what you mean. If I was Haslim though I would have said Dawson is a great kicker and we are going to see what he wants to stay in Cleveland. I certainly wouldn't have said we need to evaluate Dawson. I like how Ray Horton talked up Ward, Winn and other def. players.
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roger murdock


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I highly doubt they are evaluating his talent. I'm sure they are evaluating his worth. Will it be worth spending 3-5M to keep one of the best kickers, when you can get a guy off the street to do 80% of what Dawson does for 400k?

That is a tough question. They all know Dawson is good. If they could lock him down for cheap I guarantee they would.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
Banner has done it before and not poorly
Chud hasnít done it poorly
Horton has done it before and not poorly
Turner has done it before and not poorly
The other assistant coaches have done it before and not poorly
The scouting staff has done it before and not poorly

Lombardi is given far too much "credit" for draft picks he never made, but he's still the only legitimate possibility to fit your statement about doing it poorly.

So just make your "I'll believe he doesn't stink when I see it" statement for him and don't throw everyone else in with him.


Banner has never had power over football operations. He doesn't evaluate players, he evaluates players' worth. He has never been responsible for acquiring players; merely figuring out how to make players' contracts fit under the cap.

Lombardi has had power over football operations, and has failed to build any modicum of sustained success anywhere he has been. His draft record, or the draft record of the teams he's been employed by, is abysmal. It's not being pessimistic to say having him involved in football decisions is the worst thing that Haslam could have done for this franchise.

The coaching staff does not have the power that Banner and Lombardi have, and giving them credit for building a winning football team is a bit premature.

The whole "draft by committee" nonsense is a premanufactured excuse to avoid any blame for future failures. That's what we're talking about here - the draft. None of the people mentioned above have ever run a draft, and if they have, they've ran it about as bad as you can. It is a recipe for disaster, and if you want to call that pessimism by all means go ahead. I'll just continue to call it as I see it.


I'll call it as I see it as well.

You're being pessimistic.

You see Lombardi having as much "power" as Joe Banner because you are being pessimistic. There is nothing to support this notion and much evidence to the contrary.

Lombardi had control over football operations where and when? Horseapples!

"Draft by committee" is how every team does it, especially since Jerry Jones figured out that is the way it works the best.

Pessimism, pure and simple. You offered nothing but regurgitated media hype and pessimistic paranoia.

Look, I have no idea how well this franchise will function in the coming years, but let's actually see what happens before we cry for tearing the place down yet again like has happened so many times already.


Unsure as how I can regurgitate anything that I haven't consumed. 50 hour work weeks and a toddler don't allow for reading much about the team anymore.

Give it whatever name you like, the reality of the situation is Banner has never had control over football operations before (Lurie is smarter than that) and Lombardi has a tragic track record. Haslam has no track record, yet already feels comfortable enough to abandon ship and hightail it back to Knoxville.

If that's a recipe for success, it's not one that I've ever seen.

You feel free to give them all the rope you like. I'll be building the gallows. Together, we'll be all set to move on again in two years when this debacle has run it's course and we get yet another regime.

Call it pessimism if you like, but there's a reason that they say the past is precedent.

For me, it's a blessing because I usually look forward to the offseason more than the actual season but with the way this franchise is structured now, I am much more amped about the coaching staff and players than the front office. Complete opposite of the past three years.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
I agree with Ditch, he is a smart man.



...Can I have your Cribbs jersey?




And no, you can't have my 16. You wouldn't want it anyway. It has a smell that hasn't come out no matter how many times it's been washed.
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 6327
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
Banner has done it before and not poorly
Chud hasnít done it poorly
Horton has done it before and not poorly
Turner has done it before and not poorly
The other assistant coaches have done it before and not poorly
The scouting staff has done it before and not poorly

Lombardi is given far too much "credit" for draft picks he never made, but he's still the only legitimate possibility to fit your statement about doing it poorly.

So just make your "I'll believe he doesn't stink when I see it" statement for him and don't throw everyone else in with him.


Banner has never had power over football operations. He doesn't evaluate players, he evaluates players' worth. He has never been responsible for acquiring players; merely figuring out how to make players' contracts fit under the cap.

Lombardi has had power over football operations, and has failed to build any modicum of sustained success anywhere he has been. His draft record, or the draft record of the teams he's been employed by, is abysmal. It's not being pessimistic to say having him involved in football decisions is the worst thing that Haslam could have done for this franchise.

The coaching staff does not have the power that Banner and Lombardi have, and giving them credit for building a winning football team is a bit premature.

The whole "draft by committee" nonsense is a premanufactured excuse to avoid any blame for future failures. That's what we're talking about here - the draft. None of the people mentioned above have ever run a draft, and if they have, they've ran it about as bad as you can. It is a recipe for disaster, and if you want to call that pessimism by all means go ahead. I'll just continue to call it as I see it.


I'll call it as I see it as well.

You're being pessimistic.

You see Lombardi having as much "power" as Joe Banner because you are being pessimistic. There is nothing to support this notion and much evidence to the contrary.

Lombardi had control over football operations where and when? Horseapples!

"Draft by committee" is how every team does it, especially since Jerry Jones figured out that is the way it works the best.

Pessimism, pure and simple. You offered nothing but regurgitated media hype and pessimistic paranoia.

Look, I have no idea how well this franchise will function in the coming years, but let's actually see what happens before we cry for tearing the place down yet again like has happened so many times already.


Unsure as how I can regurgitate anything that I haven't consumed. 50 hour work weeks and a toddler don't allow for reading much about the team anymore.

Give it whatever name you like, the reality of the situation is Banner has never had control over football operations before (Lurie is smarter than that) and Lombardi has a tragic track record. Haslam has no track record, yet already feels comfortable enough to abandon ship and hightail it back to Knoxville.

If that's a recipe for success, it's not one that I've ever seen.

You feel free to give them all the rope you like. I'll be building the gallows. Together, we'll be all set to move on again in two years when this debacle has run it's course and we get yet another regime.

Call it pessimism if you like, but there's a reason that they say the past is precedent.

For me, it's a blessing because I usually look forward to the offseason more than the actual season but with the way this franchise is structured now, I am much more amped about the coaching staff and players than the front office. Complete opposite of the past three years.


I am not sold on Banner/Lombardi and I am a little concerned that we have so relatively few (to what Heckert had/created) picks to work with.

That having been said, I am loving the way we are heading.

Now you know what I felt like during The Big's reign.

In Haslam I trust.

Sounds like we have switched places. haha!
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 4258
Location: WV
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
I agree with Ditch, he is a smart man.



...Can I have your Cribbs jersey?



And no, you can't have my 16. You wouldn't want it anyway. It has a smell that hasn't come out no matter how many times it's been washed.


I already said I wanted it, no need to sweeten the deal
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
Banner has done it before and not poorly
Chud hasnít done it poorly
Horton has done it before and not poorly
Turner has done it before and not poorly
The other assistant coaches have done it before and not poorly
The scouting staff has done it before and not poorly

Lombardi is given far too much "credit" for draft picks he never made, but he's still the only legitimate possibility to fit your statement about doing it poorly.

So just make your "I'll believe he doesn't stink when I see it" statement for him and don't throw everyone else in with him.


Banner has never had power over football operations. He doesn't evaluate players, he evaluates players' worth. He has never been responsible for acquiring players; merely figuring out how to make players' contracts fit under the cap.

Lombardi has had power over football operations, and has failed to build any modicum of sustained success anywhere he has been. His draft record, or the draft record of the teams he's been employed by, is abysmal. It's not being pessimistic to say having him involved in football decisions is the worst thing that Haslam could have done for this franchise.

The coaching staff does not have the power that Banner and Lombardi have, and giving them credit for building a winning football team is a bit premature.

The whole "draft by committee" nonsense is a premanufactured excuse to avoid any blame for future failures. That's what we're talking about here - the draft. None of the people mentioned above have ever run a draft, and if they have, they've ran it about as bad as you can. It is a recipe for disaster, and if you want to call that pessimism by all means go ahead. I'll just continue to call it as I see it.


I'll call it as I see it as well.

You're being pessimistic.

You see Lombardi having as much "power" as Joe Banner because you are being pessimistic. There is nothing to support this notion and much evidence to the contrary.

Lombardi had control over football operations where and when? Horseapples!

"Draft by committee" is how every team does it, especially since Jerry Jones figured out that is the way it works the best.

Pessimism, pure and simple. You offered nothing but regurgitated media hype and pessimistic paranoia.

Look, I have no idea how well this franchise will function in the coming years, but let's actually see what happens before we cry for tearing the place down yet again like has happened so many times already.


Unsure as how I can regurgitate anything that I haven't consumed. 50 hour work weeks and a toddler don't allow for reading much about the team anymore.

Give it whatever name you like, the reality of the situation is Banner has never had control over football operations before (Lurie is smarter than that) and Lombardi has a tragic track record. Haslam has no track record, yet already feels comfortable enough to abandon ship and hightail it back to Knoxville.

If that's a recipe for success, it's not one that I've ever seen.

You feel free to give them all the rope you like. I'll be building the gallows. Together, we'll be all set to move on again in two years when this debacle has run it's course and we get yet another regime.

Call it pessimism if you like, but there's a reason that they say the past is precedent.

For me, it's a blessing because I usually look forward to the offseason more than the actual season but with the way this franchise is structured now, I am much more amped about the coaching staff and players than the front office. Complete opposite of the past three years.


Did you learn that Haslam "abandoned" the team while not reading about it since you are too busy to read anything about the team?

How did you conclude that Lurie was "smarter than that"? Osmosis?

Both are regurgitations of media hype. It's no coincidence.

You blame Haslam, Banner, and Lombardi for things they have not done yet. How is that possible? You cite "the past is precedent" while looking at a narrow view of the past.

What should Haslam be doing right now? I ask because your language about "abandoning" and "high-tailing" suggests that you believe he should be doing something else. So what is it exactly?

Describe how you know exactly how Banner will be running every football operation? Will he be setting the roster? Making draft picks? Coaching players? Setting game day rosters?

How about Lombardi? Will he be running all of these things? Perhaps along with Banner? How do you know this?

Now, when you answer those questions, please include the "recipe for success" and how your answers differ from such.

And, by the way, I'm not calling what youíre doing pessimistic. I'm merely pointing out that what you are doing matches the definition of pessimism. I hope you see the distinction this time.

One can call a spade a heart, but it's still a spade.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 15781
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
Did you learn that Haslam "abandoned" the team while not reading about it since you are too busy to read anything about the team?

How did you conclude that Lurie was "smarter than that"? Osmosis?

Both are regurgitations of media hype. It's no coincidence.

You blame Haslam, Banner, and Lombardi for things they have not done yet. How is that possible? You cite "the past is precedent" while looking at a narrow view of the past.

What should Haslam be doing right now? I ask because your language about "abandoning" and "high-tailing" suggests that you believe he should be doing something else. So what is it exactly?

Describe how you know exactly how Banner will be running every football operation? Will he be setting the roster? Making draft picks? Coaching players? Setting game day rosters?

How about Lombardi? Will he be running all of these things? Perhaps along with Banner? How do you know this?

Now, when you answer those questions, please include the "recipe for success" and how your answers differ from such.

And, by the way, I'm not calling what youíre doing pessimistic. I'm merely pointing out that what you are doing matches the definition of pessimism. I hope you see the distinction this time.

One can call a spade a heart, but it's still a spade.


No, I just get my Browns news from this board and the SportsCenter updates on 97.1 the Fan on the way to and from work.

How did I learn Lurie was smarter than to give Banner control over football ops? Silly question, since the only reason Banner is here is because he wanted control over football ops in Philly but lost his power struggle with Andy Reid.

No time to form a detailed rebuttal, but I have a question for you: How many successful teams out there have a CEO with no football ops background and a VPPP with a disastrous track record? And nobody else to balance their power?

No President. No GM. It's astonishingly foolish the way this organization has been set up. Almost Randy Lerner bad.

I guess I'm a pessimist for pointing out the glaringly obvious. Fine. I'll wear that scarlet letter with pride then.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
Did you learn that Haslam "abandoned" the team while not reading about it since you are too busy to read anything about the team?

How did you conclude that Lurie was "smarter than that"? Osmosis?

Both are regurgitations of media hype. It's no coincidence.

You blame Haslam, Banner, and Lombardi for things they have not done yet. How is that possible? You cite "the past is precedent" while looking at a narrow view of the past.

What should Haslam be doing right now? I ask because your language about "abandoning" and "high-tailing" suggests that you believe he should be doing something else. So what is it exactly?

Describe how you know exactly how Banner will be running every football operation? Will he be setting the roster? Making draft picks? Coaching players? Setting game day rosters?

How about Lombardi? Will he be running all of these things? Perhaps along with Banner? How do you know this?

Now, when you answer those questions, please include the "recipe for success" and how your answers differ from such.

And, by the way, I'm not calling what youíre doing pessimistic. I'm merely pointing out that what you are doing matches the definition of pessimism. I hope you see the distinction this time.

One can call a spade a heart, but it's still a spade.


No, I just get my Browns news from this board and the SportsCenter updates on 97.1 the Fan on the way to and from work.

How did I learn Lurie was smarter than to give Banner control over football ops? Silly question, since the only reason Banner is here is because he wanted control over football ops in Philly but lost his power struggle with Andy Reid.

No time to form a detailed rebuttal, but I have a question for you: How many successful teams out there have a CEO with no football ops background and a VPPP with a disastrous track record? And nobody else to balance their power?

No President. No GM. It's astonishingly foolish the way this organization has been set up. Almost Randy Lerner bad.

I guess I'm a pessimist for pointing out the glaringly obvious. Fine. I'll wear that scarlet letter with pride then.


So Banner "lost" his "power struggle" with the guy that was just fired? Really?

Perhaps you should look closer at that scenario. See, that's exactly what the people you were listening to do didn't do. They just jumped to sensationalistic conclusions, since that's their job.

In reality, it is just as likely that the Eagles would be a far better team right now had Banner "won" the "power struggle". The evidence of this "power struggle" comes from Reid and Banner denying it in the first place. Did you know that?

Quote:
The one thing you can most assuredly count on all of them telling us in no uncertain terms is that that Bannerís decision to step down as club president has absolutely, positively nothing to do with him losing a power struggle to Reid this offseason.

Which means it had everything to do with him losing a power struggle to Reid.


http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/Banner-Reid-Power-Struggle-Youd-Better-Believe-It.html

The firing of Reid suggests that this article's conclusion, which was simply based on contradiction, was inaccurate. Yet it still is appears to be a widely accepted "fact" since it was published in media. Some, like you, have then generalized other conclusions based on this bogus "fact". I'd bet you would even try to justify your belief that this "fact" really was true despite the outcome.

Now, onto your question:

Jerry Jones ran the Cowboys after he bought them before the 1989 season. He fired Tom Landry, the GM (can't remember his name), and assumed control of everything. They went 1-15.

But then, 2 years later, they had 6 consecutive 10+ win season including 3 Superbowl wins.

How much did Jones know about football before buying the team?

Does that answer your question? If not, list all the CEO's and VPPP's in the NFL and I'll tell you how experienced and successful they were too.

Now, about pessimism... I don't think you're wrong to be critical or pessimistic. But it's wrong to deny that's what you're doing. When you do so, it just traps you in that state.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm done. If I wanted condecension mixed with psychoanalysis, I would have married the woman I dated prior to meeting my wife.



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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's so weird about answering your question?

You're being weird if you ask me, especially with that ex-girlfriend dig and the silly memes.

I'll assume you simply have no response to the football points, since you didn't.
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Well, I'm done. If I wanted condecension mixed with psychoanalysis, I would have married the woman I dated prior to meeting my wife.


Every party needs as pooper, that's why we invited you!


It's ok, your (nearly) pessimistic attitude needs an opposite. And in all honesty, I don't even care about all this off season stuff, because none of it matters until we put it on the field. This past season, I was pleasantly surprised, because I actually watched all of every game this season. We were competitive, and at times dangerous. We got a win against the Steelers. We got a win against a KC team comprised of guys WE GOT RID OF. So if you want to be a Debbie Browner, go right ahead, but I guarantee you're more stressed out about it than I am. I will always be excited about the season, and I can't wait to go to my Browns Backers bar and get crazy! Only one team can win it every year, and nobody picked the Ravens to win it all except Baltimore fans. Of all the stories and headlines about football during the year, none are truer than the ones that talk about how CLOSE it is in the NFL. I'll stick to those stories and get behind and stay behind my team.


That's football gentleman. That's all it is.



Did I ever mention how much I love Any Given Sunday?
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Brownsalltheway


Joined: 12 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roger murdock wrote:
I highly doubt they are evaluating his talent. I'm sure they are evaluating his worth. Will it be worth spending 3-5M to keep one of the best kickers, when you can get a guy off the street to do 80% of what Dawson does for 400k?

That is a tough question. They all know Dawson is good. If they could lock him down for cheap I guarantee they would.


I think this is the key statement in this entire thread. If we don't retain Phil Dawson, it has little to do with his talent and everything to do with his value. As you said, why pay a couple million to a guy when recent history shows that taking one of the better kickers in the later rounds of the draft can net you great gains?

I love Phil, and I love that he has been a trooper all these years. He's sort of like that one character in a running movie series or video game series that makes it into every one, like Eugene Levy in the American Pie movies or Cid from the Final Fantasy games.

But there comes a time when that stuff must end, and I really feel like 2013 will be it.

I've got a creeping suspicion that no free agents will be retained before free agency kicks off.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brownsalltheway wrote:
roger murdock wrote:
I highly doubt they are evaluating his talent. I'm sure they are evaluating his worth. Will it be worth spending 3-5M to keep one of the best kickers, when you can get a guy off the street to do 80% of what Dawson does for 400k?

That is a tough question. They all know Dawson is good. If they could lock him down for cheap I guarantee they would.


I think this is the key statement in this entire thread. If we don't retain Phil Dawson, it has little to do with his talent and everything to do with his value. As you said, why pay a couple million to a guy when recent history shows that taking one of the better kickers in the later rounds of the draft can net you great gains?

I love Phil, and I love that he has been a trooper all these years. He's sort of like that one character in a running movie series or video game series that makes it into every one, like Eugene Levy in the American Pie movies or Cid from the Final Fantasy games.

But there comes a time when that stuff must end, and I really feel like 2013 will be it.

I've got a creeping suspicion that no free agents will be retained before free agency kicks off.


+1

That having been said, I hope the ownership and FO sees their way clear to giving Dawson a 2 year contract that will let him set records, win something meaningful and otherwise go out as the best K the Cleveland Browns ever have had.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Brownsalltheway wrote:
roger murdock wrote:
I highly doubt they are evaluating his talent. I'm sure they are evaluating his worth. Will it be worth spending 3-5M to keep one of the best kickers, when you can get a guy off the street to do 80% of what Dawson does for 400k?

That is a tough question. They all know Dawson is good. If they could lock him down for cheap I guarantee they would.


I think this is the key statement in this entire thread. If we don't retain Phil Dawson, it has little to do with his talent and everything to do with his value. As you said, why pay a couple million to a guy when recent history shows that taking one of the better kickers in the later rounds of the draft can net you great gains?

I love Phil, and I love that he has been a trooper all these years. He's sort of like that one character in a running movie series or video game series that makes it into every one, like Eugene Levy in the American Pie movies or Cid from the Final Fantasy games.

But there comes a time when that stuff must end, and I really feel like 2013 will be it.

I've got a creeping suspicion that no free agents will be retained before free agency kicks off.


+1

That having been said, I hope the ownership and FO sees their way clear to giving Dawson a 2 year contract that will let him set records, win something meaningful and otherwise go out as the best K the Cleveland Browns ever have had.


Amen. And you know, how much of a boost would that be to all of Browns land if Dawson kicks in a playoff win?

Oh, grats on 5K posts bruce. Very Happy
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