Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Upcoming draft - final pieces or looming debacle?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Cleveland Browns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
StewieRules


Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: jacksonville
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:12 am    Post subject: Upcoming draft - final pieces or looming debacle? Reply with quote

Saw this on Bleacher and it was a push to some concerns I've had since all the off-season's activities began.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1524081-cleveland-browns-four-thoughts-on-talent-acquisition-this-offseason

Let's face it, over the last decade the draft has been our Super Bowl - it's the one time each season when we have a chance to get excited and talk ourselves into believing we'll turn the corner. Hasn't happened yet, but we get signs here and there and as devoted Browns faithful, there's no reason to stop at this point.

That said, we kicked the one GM we had who could find talent to the curb (you may debate all you want on the intricacies of how much talent but safe to say, our roster is better now than it was when Heckert 1st came here) and the word and general consensus from all the pressers was that the draft would be sort of a committee affair between the owner, the CEO, the GM and the coach. This bothered me almost instantly, especially when you look at the cast of players-

Haslam - what does this man know about evaluating football talent??

Banner - His stock in trade was contracts, numbers, dollars - NOT personnel. What does he know about identifying NFL-quality college players?

Lombardi - His lackluster record speaks for itself. What amazes me about this guy is his ability to claim the position of GM for several franchises over the years yet somehow dodge responsibility for the end result of players picked. Amazing. But the results remain (based on several articles and history searches I've run across) - of some 68 players chosen by him, only one was an All-Pro, and that was Janikowski, a kicker. Whom he took in the 1st round. A kicker. In the 1st round. A KICKER.

Chud - This guy is my only hope. As a coach I keep my fingers crossed that he, along with the OC & DC, can identify the players we need.

Now apparently Haslam is going back to doing what he does best - run truck stops. This is actually a good thing I think, but am I the only one concerned about the Banner Committee handling the draft??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
H2ThaIzzo


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 4049
Location: Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm gonna give these guys the benefit of the doubt, for now. I think Heckert did a solid job in his role here, And I am sure that Haslam didn't take to it lightly when deciding what direction to go. I must point out that, as of now, Heckert still hasn't landed a position with any other team yet. I think Haslam was impressed with our scouting department, which is why when everyone else went, they remained. Personally, I am fine with this set up. I think Banner is going to pretty much run the show, I think Lombardi is going to be the guy that's handling pro players, ala free agents. Nobody spends more time prepping for the draft, scouting college players as the actual scouts do. I think if the scouts continue to do what they do, and compile the best group of ranked talent they can, and Banner/Lombardi chooses from that list, they really can't screw up, unless the player busts, of course. Scouts watch a career, they watch tape after tape, they pick up on tendencies, pros and cons. They don't watch a highlight reel on youtube then fall in love with a guy from a ten minute breakdown of all the guys good plays.
_________________


"The league has maintained that they will not suspend players for a positive result caused by second-hand smoke in the past:"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
StewieRules


Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: jacksonville
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They don't watch a highlight reel on youtube then fall in love with a guy from a ten minute breakdown of all the guys good plays.


Sooo....you're saying they don't do it like I do? Laughing

That's probably a VERY good thing. But my fear is that Lombardi's decision-making or lack thereof will permeate this process more than that.

I sure hope your all our sakes that your correct. That said I'm REALLY hoping for a great FA off-season as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 16367
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without a doubt, this will be a debacle.

My biggest concern is that the Cleveland Browns are being used by a truck stop magnate as a tax write-off. It becomes more legitimate with each passing day. I don't expect draft day to be too different.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Without a doubt, this will be a debacle.

My biggest concern is that the Cleveland Browns are being used by a truck stop magnate as a tax write-off. It becomes more legitimate with each passing day. I don't expect draft day to be too different.


Haslam's behavior thus far has been consistent with trying to make the business end very successful. It is obvious he is sincerely trying to make his purchase of the Browns a very lucrative venture.

I don't believe there is any hint of him attempting to "use" the Browns as a tax write-off. Especially since that would suggest that the Browns will have a P&L in the red. Very doubtful.

Furthermore, he has hired a quality football executive in Banner and subsequently hired good football men in Chud, Norv, and Horton.

Lombardi is the real "unknown" here. But he is not our GM, by title and by behavior and reports. Our scouts will always be the most important part of the creation of our draft board, and I believe the scouting staff is still intact.

"Debacle"? Well, every NFL draft can be a debacle for most NFL teams. But I see no reason to assume hyperbolically negative results. Perhaps we should discuss decisions that are actually made by these people instead of those that we think might be made as we look upon the situation with our "woe is me" filter.

Rucker was released. Was that a move worthy of strong criticism? According to the media, whose best interest lies in the propagation of controversy, it was done to "erase" Heckert's "credit" for any future success. Well, excuse me "Mr. Media" (Grossi), but I'm pretty sure that we'll need to release about 40 other players to really do that.

The real debacle is in the attitude of many fans and media types. Some use it as a defense mechanism to protect them from further disappointment, and other use it to promote their careers in journalism at the expense of their integrity.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 16367
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Without a doubt, this will be a debacle.

My biggest concern is that the Cleveland Browns are being used by a truck stop magnate as a tax write-off. It becomes more legitimate with each passing day. I don't expect draft day to be too different.


Haslam's behavior thus far has been consistent with trying to make the business end very successful. It is obvious he is sincerely trying to make his purchase of the Browns a very lucrative venture.

I don't believe there is any hint of him attempting to "use" the Browns as a tax write-off. Especially since that would suggest that the Browns will have a P&L in the red. Very doubtful.

Furthermore, he has hired a quality football executive in Banner and subsequently hired good football men in Chud, Norv, and Horton.

Lombardi is the real "unknown" here. But he is not our GM, by title and by behavior and reports. Our scouts will always be the most important part of the creation of our draft board, and I believe the scouting staff is still intact.

"Debacle"? Well, every NFL draft can be a debacle for most NFL teams. But I see no reason to assume hyperbolically negative results. Perhaps we should discuss decisions that are actually made by these people instead of those that we think might be made as we look upon the situation with our "woe is me" filter.

Rucker was released. Was that a move worthy of strong criticism? According to the media, whose best interest lies in the propagation of controversy, it was done to "erase" Heckert's "credit" for any future success. Well, excuse me "Mr. Media" (Grossi), but I'm pretty sure that we'll need to release about 40 other players to really do that.

The real debacle is in the attitude of many fans and media types. Some use it as a defense mechanism to protect them from further disappointment, and other use it to promote their careers in journalism at the expense of their integrity.


Meh. Still going to be a debacle.

All the glamorous hires on the business end don't put a quality product on the field. Football operations are being run by people who have never done it or have done it poorly. We're pretty much screwed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Without a doubt, this will be a debacle.

My biggest concern is that the Cleveland Browns are being used by a truck stop magnate as a tax write-off. It becomes more legitimate with each passing day. I don't expect draft day to be too different.


Haslam's behavior thus far has been consistent with trying to make the business end very successful. It is obvious he is sincerely trying to make his purchase of the Browns a very lucrative venture.

I don't believe there is any hint of him attempting to "use" the Browns as a tax write-off. Especially since that would suggest that the Browns will have a P&L in the red. Very doubtful.

Furthermore, he has hired a quality football executive in Banner and subsequently hired good football men in Chud, Norv, and Horton.

Lombardi is the real "unknown" here. But he is not our GM, by title and by behavior and reports. Our scouts will always be the most important part of the creation of our draft board, and I believe the scouting staff is still intact.

"Debacle"? Well, every NFL draft can be a debacle for most NFL teams. But I see no reason to assume hyperbolically negative results. Perhaps we should discuss decisions that are actually made by these people instead of those that we think might be made as we look upon the situation with our "woe is me" filter.

Rucker was released. Was that a move worthy of strong criticism? According to the media, whose best interest lies in the propagation of controversy, it was done to "erase" Heckert's "credit" for any future success. Well, excuse me "Mr. Media" (Grossi), but I'm pretty sure that we'll need to release about 40 other players to really do that.

The real debacle is in the attitude of many fans and media types. Some use it as a defense mechanism to protect them from further disappointment, and other use it to promote their careers in journalism at the expense of their integrity.


Meh. Still going to be a debacle.

All the glamorous hires on the business end don't put a quality product on the field. Football operations are being run by people who have never done it or have done it poorly. We're pretty much screwed.


Actually, the business end does help to put a quality product on the field. I'm not sure where you think the money to pay for the employees comes from if not the business end.

The employees are the ones who work with and select players.

It seems you are still expecting the organization to miraculously make up for over a decade of "hail mary" decisions attempted to bypass the building process and secure jobs.

"Meh" to your pessimism.

Banner has done it before and not poorly
Chud hasnít done it poorly
Horton has done it before and not poorly
Turner has done it before and not poorly
The other assistant coaches have done it before and not poorly
The scouting staff has done it before and not poorly

Lombardi is given far too much "credit" for draft picks he never made, but he's still the only legitimate possibility to fit your statement about doing it poorly.

So just make your "I'll believe he doesn't stink when I see it" statement for him and don't throw everyone else in with him.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MalcolmBrown


Joined: 26 Jul 2011
Posts: 630
Location: 2013 Adopt a Brownie: Leon McFadden: 1 solo tackle, 1 assist
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Without a doubt, this will be a debacle.

My biggest concern is that the Cleveland Browns are being used by a truck stop magnate as a tax write-off. It becomes more legitimate with each passing day. I don't expect draft day to be too different.


Haslam's behavior thus far has been consistent with trying to make the business end very successful. It is obvious he is sincerely trying to make his purchase of the Browns a very lucrative venture.

I don't believe there is any hint of him attempting to "use" the Browns as a tax write-off. Especially since that would suggest that the Browns will have a P&L in the red. Very doubtful.

Furthermore, he has hired a quality football executive in Banner and subsequently hired good football men in Chud, Norv, and Horton.

Lombardi is the real "unknown" here. But he is not our GM, by title and by behavior and reports. Our scouts will always be the most important part of the creation of our draft board, and I believe the scouting staff is still intact.

"Debacle"? Well, every NFL draft can be a debacle for most NFL teams. But I see no reason to assume hyperbolically negative results. Perhaps we should discuss decisions that are actually made by these people instead of those that we think might be made as we look upon the situation with our "woe is me" filter.

Rucker was released. Was that a move worthy of strong criticism? According to the media, whose best interest lies in the propagation of controversy, it was done to "erase" Heckert's "credit" for any future success. Well, excuse me "Mr. Media" (Grossi), but I'm pretty sure that we'll need to release about 40 other players to really do that.

The real debacle is in the attitude of many fans and media types. Some use it as a defense mechanism to protect them from further disappointment, and other use it to promote their careers in journalism at the expense of their integrity.


Meh. Still going to be a debacle.

All the glamorous hires on the business end don't put a quality product on the field. Football operations are being run by people who have never done it or have done it poorly. We're pretty much screwed.


Such a sad stance. Not that I don't get it, but it's like that "aim low" mentality so that if/when something good does happen it can be that much more uplifting. However, it's still just your opinion, thank Browns, and you are entitled to it. What has any of us ever seen since the Browns' return that has helped promote healthy ideals about the direction as a franchise. So far it has been very underwhelming, but I stand by the fact that the Browns weren't the worst team in the league in 2012, and though I don't know if we are on our way up, to stick with the attitude of "we're the Browns and we will always suck" just screams masochism. Why not throw in the towel, and mail me all of your Browns gear? I'd be happy to fill in for you and anyone else who can only see darkness.

I'm not just along for the ride. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
_________________
"You mean...this ain't Malcolm Browns car...? ...Damn...my bad..."

Reppin in Athens, Ohio AKA South Cleveland
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 16367
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
Banner has done it before and not poorly
Chud hasnít done it poorly
Horton has done it before and not poorly
Turner has done it before and not poorly
The other assistant coaches have done it before and not poorly
The scouting staff has done it before and not poorly

Lombardi is given far too much "credit" for draft picks he never made, but he's still the only legitimate possibility to fit your statement about doing it poorly.

So just make your "I'll believe he doesn't stink when I see it" statement for him and don't throw everyone else in with him.


Banner has never had power over football operations. He doesn't evaluate players, he evaluates players' worth. He has never been responsible for acquiring players; merely figuring out how to make players' contracts fit under the cap.

Lombardi has had power over football operations, and has failed to build any modicum of sustained success anywhere he has been. His draft record, or the draft record of the teams he's been employed by, is abysmal. It's not being pessimistic to say having him involved in football decisions is the worst thing that Haslam could have done for this franchise.

The coaching staff does not have the power that Banner and Lombardi have, and giving them credit for building a winning football team is a bit premature.

The whole "draft by committee" nonsense is a premanufactured excuse to avoid any blame for future failures. That's what we're talking about here - the draft. None of the people mentioned above have ever run a draft, and if they have, they've ran it about as bad as you can. It is a recipe for disaster, and if you want to call that pessimism by all means go ahead. I'll just continue to call it as I see it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 16367
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalcolmBrown wrote:
I stand by the fact that the Browns weren't the worst team in the league in 2012, and though I don't know if we are on our way up, to stick with the attitude of "we're the Browns and we will always suck" just screams masochism. Why not throw in the towel, and mail me all of your Browns gear? I'd be happy to fill in for you and anyone else who can only see darkness.

I'm not just along for the ride. I'm enjoying every minute of it.


Good for you. Glad that "at least we're not last" attitude works out for you. I'm pretty sick of it, to be honset.

I think you mistake me for being pessimistic about this team because I am down on the football operations people (Banner/Lombardi). I still think this team can become a sustainably winning franchise, as long as no overwhelmingly stupid decisions are made.

I just happen to think that a series of overwhelmingly stupid decisions are about to be made. So you can quit drooling over my Cribbs and Hillis jerseys.

On second thought, why don't you PM me your address and I'll send you my Hillis jersey.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5250
Location: WV
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
I stand by the fact that the Browns weren't the worst team in the league in 2012, and though I don't know if we are on our way up, to stick with the attitude of "we're the Browns and we will always suck" just screams masochism. Why not throw in the towel, and mail me all of your Browns gear? I'd be happy to fill in for you and anyone else who can only see darkness.

I'm not just along for the ride. I'm enjoying every minute of it.


Good for you. Glad that "at least we're not last" attitude works out for you. I'm pretty sick of it, to be honset.

I think you mistake me for being pessimistic about this team because I am down on the football operations people (Banner/Lombardi). I still think this team can become a sustainably winning franchise, as long as no overwhelmingly stupid decisions are made.

I just happen to think that a series of overwhelmingly stupid decisions are about to be made. So you can quit drooling over my Cribbs and Hillis jerseys.

On second thought, why don't you PM me your address and I'll send you my Hillis jersey.


I agree with Ditch, he is a smart man.



...Can I have your Cribbs jersey?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Entropy wrote:
Banner has done it before and not poorly
Chud hasnít done it poorly
Horton has done it before and not poorly
Turner has done it before and not poorly
The other assistant coaches have done it before and not poorly
The scouting staff has done it before and not poorly

Lombardi is given far too much "credit" for draft picks he never made, but he's still the only legitimate possibility to fit your statement about doing it poorly.

So just make your "I'll believe he doesn't stink when I see it" statement for him and don't throw everyone else in with him.


Banner has never had power over football operations. He doesn't evaluate players, he evaluates players' worth. He has never been responsible for acquiring players; merely figuring out how to make players' contracts fit under the cap.

Lombardi has had power over football operations, and has failed to build any modicum of sustained success anywhere he has been. His draft record, or the draft record of the teams he's been employed by, is abysmal. It's not being pessimistic to say having him involved in football decisions is the worst thing that Haslam could have done for this franchise.

The coaching staff does not have the power that Banner and Lombardi have, and giving them credit for building a winning football team is a bit premature.

The whole "draft by committee" nonsense is a premanufactured excuse to avoid any blame for future failures. That's what we're talking about here - the draft. None of the people mentioned above have ever run a draft, and if they have, they've ran it about as bad as you can. It is a recipe for disaster, and if you want to call that pessimism by all means go ahead. I'll just continue to call it as I see it.


I'll call it as I see it as well.

You're being pessimistic.

You see Lombardi having as much "power" as Joe Banner because you are being pessimistic. There is nothing to support this notion and much evidence to the contrary.

Lombardi had control over football operations where and when? Horseapples!

"Draft by committee" is how every team does it, especially since Jerry Jones figured out that is the way it works the best.

Pessimism, pure and simple. You offered nothing but regurgitated media hype and pessimistic paranoia.

Look, I have no idea how well this franchise will function in the coming years, but let's actually see what happens before we cry for tearing the place down yet again like has happened so many times already.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
I stand by the fact that the Browns weren't the worst team in the league in 2012, and though I don't know if we are on our way up, to stick with the attitude of "we're the Browns and we will always suck" just screams masochism. Why not throw in the towel, and mail me all of your Browns gear? I'd be happy to fill in for you and anyone else who can only see darkness.

I'm not just along for the ride. I'm enjoying every minute of it.


Good for you. Glad that "at least we're not last" attitude works out for you. I'm pretty sick of it, to be honset.

I think you mistake me for being pessimistic about this team because I am down on the football operations people (Banner/Lombardi). I still think this team can become a sustainably winning franchise, as long as no overwhelmingly stupid decisions are made.

I just happen to think that a series of overwhelmingly stupid decisions are about to be made. So you can quit drooling over my Cribbs and Hillis jerseys.

On second thought, why don't you PM me your address and I'll send you my Hillis jersey.


I'm glad the "I'll hate the organization until they prove me wrong" attitude works for you. That's actually pessimism whether you admit it or not.

If a series of overwhelmingly stupid decisions are actually made, I will assist you in criticizing them. Until then, expecting them to happen is...guess what? Aww, you know...
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cattleman78


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 6942
Location: ohio
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Tony Grossi [that's who I think it was] asked Haslim about signing Dawson I lost a lot of faith in Haslim. Haslim's answer was they have to evaluate Dawson. I thought really Haslim and the rest of his regime are that dumb. I'm not a scout by any means but anyone who follows the Browns would know Dawson is the real thing. I really don't know what there is to evaluate on Dawson.
_________________
browns and indian fan 7272


Adopted Brown Tashaun Gipson safety
vs. g.bay 7 tackles,2 asst. tackles and 1 pass defended
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5250
Location: WV
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cattleman78 wrote:
When Tony Grossi [that's who I think it was] asked Haslim about signing Dawson I lost a lot of faith in Haslim. Haslim's answer was they have to evaluate Dawson. I thought really Haslim and the rest of his regime are that dumb. I'm not a scout by any means but anyone who follows the Browns would know Dawson is the real thing. I really don't know what there is to evaluate on Dawson.


I assumed they were saying that about every player. If you said we are evaluating Weeden. We are evaluating the receivers. You can't say, yeah of course we are resigning Dawson. I think it is mostly political talk.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Cleveland Browns All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group