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AZ_Eaglesfan


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:

That article misses the point that the read option makes it easier for QBs to be good passers. Those Qbs will see coverages that the average QB won't see on regular passing downs and on playactions because of defenses selling out to stop the zone read option


Prove the bolded statement please.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ_Eaglesfan wrote:
BBIB wrote:

That article misses the point that the read option makes it easier for QBs to be good passers. Those Qbs will see coverages that the average QB won't see on regular passing downs and on playactions because of defenses selling out to stop the zone read option


Prove the bolded statement please.


Just watch how open receivers are when 49ers are in the pistol formation when they pass the ball.

Schematically what makes it more difficult to play in the NFL than college are smaller passing windows, less time to throw the ball, and more complicated looks from the defense pre and post snap

And although that still holds true, those passing windows and time to throw the ball is noticeably more favorable as well as the number of coverages and looks a defense can give at the LOS without being unbalanced and paying for it in the run game.

Teams have to respect the run out of the pistol much more than a traditional package when the QB is a threat to run because the average YPC is a whopping 3-4 higher than traditional formation.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is a normal offense too much to ask for in Philadelphia?
#RavensChamps
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Is a normal offense too much to ask for in Philadelphia?
#RavensChamps


Eagles may be ahead of the curve of the type of offense that will be considered more and more normal as more teams in college run spread option offense with QBs capable of throwing at an NFL caliber level with all the preparation that kids get these days with the QB camps, 7 on 7 drills, etc

Chip Kelly is going to take what the Redskins and 49ers did to a whole new level with adding an uptempo approach to it


Interesting thing is that the 49ers offense stalled on what could have been a game winning drive in the redzone when they went with a more "normal" approach offensively
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Is a normal offense too much to ask for in Philadelphia?
#RavensChamps


The same team that lost 4 of their last five heading into the playoffs only to get hot and motivated with an intentional ploy by Lewis to motivate the Ravens with his retirement? Funny how if that hail merry full of grace, blown coverage blunder, last second TD in Denver changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe. Kind of like a David Tyree freakish stickem catch or gimme dropped INT by Samuel with NYG in 07' with Eli-may. In the end you have to get lucky throughout the playoffs and have things fall your way to win it all. Yes Flacco played very well but let's not use them as the bench mark for all successful teams in the NFL. I mean this same bench mark like last years SB winner lost to a pitiful 4-12 Eagles team. If that doesn't scream of a team getting on a roll at the right time I don't know what does. Let's judge Kelly's approach/offense when we actually have something of substance in the NFL to compare with. That won't happen until the pre-season and first 4-5 games of the 2013 season.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Is a normal offense too much to ask for in Philadelphia?
#RavensChamps


The same team that lost 4 of their last five heading into the playoffs only to get hot and motivated with an intentional ploy by Lewis to motivate the Ravens with his retirement? Funny how if that hail merry full of grace, blown coverage blunder, last second TD in Denver changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe. Kind of like a David Tyree freakish stickem catch or gimme dropped INT by Samuel with NYG in 07'. In the end you have to get lucky throughout the playoffs and have things fall your way to win it all. Yes Flacco played very well but let's not use them as the bench mark for all successful teams in the NFL. I mean this same bench mark like last years SB winner lost to a pitiful 4-12 Eagles team. If that doesn't scream of a team getting on a roll at the right time I don't know what does. Let's judge Kelly's approach/offense when we actually have something of substance in the NFL to compare with. That won't happen until the pre-season and first 4-5 games of the 2013 season.


How does my opinion represent the changing of everyone's opinion?
I've always been an advocate of a traditional, no gimmick offense.
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Is a normal offense too much to ask for in Philadelphia?
#RavensChamps


The same team that lost 4 of their last five heading into the playoffs only to get hot and motivated with an intentional ploy by Lewis to motivate the Ravens with his retirement? Funny how if that hail merry full of grace, blown coverage blunder, last second TD in Denver changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe. Kind of like a David Tyree freakish stickem catch or gimme dropped INT by Samuel with NYG in 07'. In the end you have to get lucky throughout the playoffs and have things fall your way to win it all. Yes Flacco played very well but let's not use them as the bench mark for all successful teams in the NFL. I mean this same bench mark like last years SB winner lost to a pitiful 4-12 Eagles team. If that doesn't scream of a team getting on a roll at the right time I don't know what does. Let's judge Kelly's approach/offense when we actually have something of substance in the NFL to compare with. That won't happen until the pre-season and first 4-5 games of the 2013 season.


How does my opinion represent the changing of everyone's opinion?
I've always been an advocate of a traditional, no gimmick offense.


Who said "the changing of everyones opinion"? I'm suggesting using the so called traditional offense you put in cash tag had very little to do with winning it all. Team getting hot, team extremely motivated and team not making mistakes a while capitalizing on others did. Much like the Giants, Saints, Steelers and Packers before them. That's all.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:


How does my opinion represent the changing of everyone's opinion?
I've always been an advocate of a traditional, no gimmick offense.


I think the point he's making is that too much is being made into using the Ravens as validation that only that style of play can win in the NFL when it takes elements of luck in winning a championship.

And especially considering it's not like the 49ers fell up short because of their style of offense. If anything abandoning their style of offense on the goaline is what did them in that Super Bowl. And if ANYTHING let them down in that game it was their defense which was lackluster pretty much for the last half a dozen games of the season after Justin Smith initially got hurt.


Also to call an offense a gimmick just because it's non-traditional is basically asserting that no new innovation can ever happen for the rest of NFL history
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Is a normal offense too much to ask for in Philadelphia?
#RavensChamps


The same team that lost 4 of their last five heading into the playoffs only to get hot and motivated with an intentional ploy by Lewis to motivate the Ravens with his retirement? Funny how if that hail merry full of grace, blown coverage blunder, last second TD in Denver changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe. Kind of like a David Tyree freakish stickem catch or gimme dropped INT by Samuel with NYG in 07'. In the end you have to get lucky throughout the playoffs and have things fall your way to win it all. Yes Flacco played very well but let's not use them as the bench mark for all successful teams in the NFL. I mean this same bench mark like last years SB winner lost to a pitiful 4-12 Eagles team. If that doesn't scream of a team getting on a roll at the right time I don't know what does. Let's judge Kelly's approach/offense when we actually have something of substance in the NFL to compare with. That won't happen until the pre-season and first 4-5 games of the 2013 season.


How does my opinion represent the changing of everyone's opinion?
I've always been an advocate of a traditional, no gimmick offense.


Who said "the changing of everyones opinion"? I'm suggesting using the so called traditional offense you put in cash tag had very little to do with winning it all. Team getting hot, team extremely motivated and team not making mistakes a while capitalizing on others did. Much like the Giants, Saints, Steelers and Packers before them. That's all.


Quote:
changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe


Why does it always seem to be the traditional offenses that "get hot" at the right times while the gimmick offenses are hot during the regular season then simmer away into oblivion in the playoffs?

There's a winning formula that has been winning the NFL for as long as it has existed.

As nles will gladly point out, I was wrong in who would win it all, but I was saying since before last season even started that a pocket passing QB will win this Super Bow. #PE

I will guarantee RIGHT NOW that a pocket passer will win the Super Bowl this coming season too.
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Think about this phire. I am the real chow.

RainbowCarebear wrote:
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
Phire wrote:


How does my opinion represent the changing of everyone's opinion?
I've always been an advocate of a traditional, no gimmick offense.


I think the point he's making is that too much is being made into using the Ravens as validation that only that style of play can win in the NFL when it takes elements of luck in winning a championship.

And especially considering it's not like the 49ers fell up short because of their style of offense. If anything abandoning their style of offense on the goaline is what did them in that Super Bowl. And if ANYTHING let them down in that game it was their defense which was lackluster pretty much for the last half a dozen games of the season after Justin Smith initially got hurt.


Also to call an offense a gimmick just because it's non-traditional is basically asserting that no new innovation can ever happen for the rest of NFL history


I don't want to innovate the NFL, I want to win a damn Super Bowl.
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Think about this phire. I am the real chow.

RainbowCarebear wrote:
Only for the quick and lucky.

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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Is a normal offense too much to ask for in Philadelphia?
#RavensChamps


The same team that lost 4 of their last five heading into the playoffs only to get hot and motivated with an intentional ploy by Lewis to motivate the Ravens with his retirement? Funny how if that hail merry full of grace, blown coverage blunder, last second TD in Denver changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe. Kind of like a David Tyree freakish stickem catch or gimme dropped INT by Samuel with NYG in 07'. In the end you have to get lucky throughout the playoffs and have things fall your way to win it all. Yes Flacco played very well but let's not use them as the bench mark for all successful teams in the NFL. I mean this same bench mark like last years SB winner lost to a pitiful 4-12 Eagles team. If that doesn't scream of a team getting on a roll at the right time I don't know what does. Let's judge Kelly's approach/offense when we actually have something of substance in the NFL to compare with. That won't happen until the pre-season and first 4-5 games of the 2013 season.


How does my opinion represent the changing of everyone's opinion?
I've always been an advocate of a traditional, no gimmick offense.


Who said "the changing of everyones opinion"? I'm suggesting using the so called traditional offense you put in cash tag had very little to do with winning it all. Team getting hot, team extremely motivated and team not making mistakes a while capitalizing on others did. Much like the Giants, Saints, Steelers and Packers before them. That's all.


Quote:
changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe


Why does it always seem to be the traditional offenses that "get hot" at the right times while the gimmick offenses are hot during the regular season then simmer away into oblivion in the playoffs?

There's a winning formula that has been winning the NFL for as long as it has existed.

As nles will gladly point out, I was wrong in who would win it all, but I was saying since before last season even started that a pocket passing QB will win this Super Bow. #PE

[b] I will guarantee RIGHT NOW that a pocket passer will win the Super Bowl this coming season too.[b/]


That's funny. Way to go out on a limb and take the odds that the other 27 NFL QB who are not, RGIII, Wilson, Kap, Cam or Vick will win, kudo's! Would Joe Flacco have won a SB with either of the last two Philadelphia Eagles teams? That's the point, it takes a team. Something we really haven't had since the dismantling of the 2008 Eagles. You bash the so called gimmick offense but ignore the team who barely loss the SB. No one including myself is advocating a QB rushing for 1500 yds. However there is no denying the threat of a QB having mobilty can aide in the QB's overall production. Look no further then the best QB in the NFL who has the same skill set to strike fear into Defensive players. The idea and goal of every GM is to hopefully find both.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
Is a normal offense too much to ask for in Philadelphia?
#RavensChamps


The same team that lost 4 of their last five heading into the playoffs only to get hot and motivated with an intentional ploy by Lewis to motivate the Ravens with his retirement? Funny how if that hail merry full of grace, blown coverage blunder, last second TD in Denver changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe. Kind of like a David Tyree freakish stickem catch or gimme dropped INT by Samuel with NYG in 07'. In the end you have to get lucky throughout the playoffs and have things fall your way to win it all. Yes Flacco played very well but let's not use them as the bench mark for all successful teams in the NFL. I mean this same bench mark like last years SB winner lost to a pitiful 4-12 Eagles team. If that doesn't scream of a team getting on a roll at the right time I don't know what does. Let's judge Kelly's approach/offense when we actually have something of substance in the NFL to compare with. That won't happen until the pre-season and first 4-5 games of the 2013 season.


How does my opinion represent the changing of everyone's opinion?
I've always been an advocate of a traditional, no gimmick offense.


Who said "the changing of everyones opinion"? I'm suggesting using the so called traditional offense you put in cash tag had very little to do with winning it all. Team getting hot, team extremely motivated and team not making mistakes a while capitalizing on others did. Much like the Giants, Saints, Steelers and Packers before them. That's all.


Quote:
changes everyone's opinion of the Ravens and Joe


Why does it always seem to be the traditional offenses that "get hot" at the right times while the gimmick offenses are hot during the regular season then simmer away into oblivion in the playoffs?

There's a winning formula that has been winning the NFL for as long as it has existed.

As nles will gladly point out, I was wrong in who would win it all, but I was saying since before last season even started that a pocket passing QB will win this Super Bow. #PE

[b] I will guarantee RIGHT NOW that a pocket passer will win the Super Bowl this coming season too.[b/]


That's funny. Way to go out on a limb and take the odds that the other 27 NFL QB who are not, RGIII, Wilson, Kap, Cam or Vick will win, kudo's! Would Joe Flacco have won a SB with either of the last two Philadelphia Eagles teams? That's the point, it takes a team. Something we really haven't had since the dismantling of the 2008 Eagles. You bash the so called gimmick offense but ignore the team who barely loss the SB. No one including myself is advocating a QB rushing for 1500 yds. However there is no denying the threat of a QB having mobilty can aide in the QB's overall production. Look no further then the best QB in the NFL who has the same skill set to strike fear into Defensive players. The idea and goal of every GM is to hopefully find both.


This is the second time you've done this. The whole point is that I'm not going out on a limb. I'm not making a grandiose statement that pits me against all odds.

My whole argument is that I'd rather put my chips in the basket that works. If your in-laws enjoy a traditional meal on Thanksgiving, and they have for a hundred years, why the heck would you come out with cotton-candy fondue with Swiss cheese on the side? Just to "innovate" Thanksgiving meals?

What if I said a traditional offense makes for a better team? When your QB stays in the pocket, your blockers and the receivers know where the QB is going to be. When you start moving him around, unless those guys have eyes in the back of their helmets it's not helping them.

And the best team doesn't always win the Super Bowl, we know that. I'd say the 49ers were a younger, healthier, and probably harder hitting team than the Ravens.

I don't want an offense that buffs up QB statistics. Give me an offense that works. There's a reason why the traditional offense is still being used, and still winning Championships, after how many decades?

I don't want an offense where the linemen don't know if they're blocking for an RB running a pitch or the quarterback keeping it himself a little more inside. These gimmick offenses have flaws people aren't talking about.
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RainbowCarebear wrote:
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thebeyonder


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


This is the second time you've done this. The whole point is that I'm not going out on a limb. I'm not making a grandiose statement that pits me against all odds.

My whole argument is that I'd rather put my chips in the basket that works. If your in-laws enjoy a traditional meal on Thanksgiving, and they have for a hundred years, why the heck would you come out with cotton-candy fondue with Swiss cheese on the side? Just to "innovate" Thanksgiving meals?

What if I said a traditional offense makes for a better team? When your QB stays in the pocket, your blockers and the receivers know where the QB is going to be. When you start moving him around, unless those guys have eyes in the back of their helmets it's not helping them.

And the best team doesn't always win the Super Bowl, we know that. I'd say the 49ers were a younger, healthier, and probably harder hitting team than the Ravens.

I don't want an offense that buffs up QB statistics. Give me an offense that works. There's a reason why the traditional offense is still being used, and still winning Championships, after how many decades?

I don't want an offense where the linemen don't know if they're blocking for an RB running a pitch or the quarterback keeping it himself a little more inside. These gimmick offenses have flaws people aren't talking about.


Don't worry about the linemen; that's the coach's job.

All winning the Superbowl comes down to is racking up yards, TDs and winning games. Any system which can consistently do all three is necessarily a good one, and can take us to the Superbowl. The pro offense is a means to an end and Nick Foles wasn't winning anymore games with it than Vick. Teams like Washington have shown us that a non-traditional offense can win you the same or more games as a traditional one. The key is to find the right system and the right QB. The Ravens did win the SB but the other team was very, very close.

You need to remember that the majority of the top teams use a pocket passer, so eveything else equal a pocket passer is more likely to win the SB. This doesn't mean that a immobile pocket passer is the best or only option, only that it can work. Look at the mobile QBs today. They are accurate and winning games and changing minds.


Last edited by thebeyonder on Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:02 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To thebeyonder. Thanks for jumping into the conversation but no need to Yell the entire time to get your point across. Wink
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thebeyonder


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
To thebeyonder. Thanks for jumping into the conversation but no need to Yell the entire time to get your point across. Wink


Sorry. I actually don't know why the paragraph turned out that way. I tried to fix it.

Edit: Fixed. I erased all the other quoted paragraphs and only quoted the one I replied to.
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