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HOVA333


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver Bullet wrote:
joeybrowner47 wrote:
i realize that we play in different conferences but to compare harvin to welker is laughable. i think welker is awesome but there is not a tougher receiver in the league than percy. not to mention welker is getting old and harvin hasnt even hit his prime yet. ill tell you what, a motivated happy harvin would be unstoppable and with brady i think possibly record setting. watch some of his highlights on youtube and form your own opinions but if you get him for a late first rounder it would be the great train robbery


This is very true. I don't think he was ever on board with the Ponder. You could see his frustrations on the field. I mean c'mon, he had Favre throwing to him as a rookie. He wants a QB he can believe in. To have Brady throwing to him, we may be witnessing the most dangerous man in the NFL with the ball in his hands. He's an every down player who can come out of the backfield, get big gains off bubble screens, terrorize defenses in the slot and also go over the top. His YAC ability is also unparallelled in my opinion, which contributes to why he's a dangerous kick returner.


I feel the same exact way about his abilities, which is why im hating to see these other names listed as better players. Also about his injury concerns. What are they? Last year was the only time where he missed significant time. As for the migraines, if you know about that story and insist this is an issue then just stop debating.
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mission27


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
If you don't see a huge need for FA signings, how are you filling those holes with 1 quality pick (#29), one developmental type pick (3rd round) and 2 garbage picks (7th round)? I guess the Pats could trade down and pile up a few 3rd and 4th round picks at the expense of their only good pick, but I'm not sure that's the right strategy.


But how much is a second round pick worth, really? Belichick hit one out of the ballpark three years ago with Gronkowski and four years ago with Vollmer and Spikes is also a good starter. I like Shane Vareen too but guys like him are a dime a dozen in this league. Otherwise, we've added Ras-I Dowling, Tavon Wilson, Ron Brace, Jermaine Cunningham, Darius Butler, Terrence Wheatly, and Pat Chung in the second round the last five years. We've added an above average starter about a quarter of the time, depending on how you want to characterize Vareen. The rest of the guys have ranged from busts to somewhat maligned role players. And we're (as of now, not trying to pre-judge young guys) oh-for-five drafting defensive backs in the second round the last five years. With a track-record like that, I'm not sure how likely we are to solve our secondary issues with this late second round pick.

Cost controlled depth has value. But we can stockpile mid and late round picks, sign some veteran role players, and build depth from there. Second round picks are most valuable to teams in rebuilding mode who are willing to take a long shot because they can't hope to compete without hitting on a few guys like Spikes. We can. I think it would be foolish to pass on a sure thing like Harvin, who's 24 and probably more talented than any receiver in this draft, for the privilege of likely drafting another depth guy we could have just found on the veteran trash heap.

Not to mention, Harvin will probably cost significantly less in 2013 than Welker would. I understand that long term the cost looks different - though I think Harvin's production will far exceed Welker's - but there is value in this league in putting off cap pressure for another year, delaying the pain until you have a full set of draft picks to deal with it, and hoping a good cost-cutting opportunity comes up. Especially when you're window to win is so wide open and your quarterback in 35. I think letting go of Welker and bringing in Harvin absolutely helps us re-sign some of our guys now. We'll have another guy to worry about in 2014 but that's better than having Welker under contract, guys like Talib and our depth gone, and a less successful '13 season behind us.

If you really think Welker's as valuable as Harvin I absolutely understand thinking this idea is crazy, because we'd basically be giving away a second round pick. But I don't really think they have remotely similar value going forward and I like the idea of putting off the cap hit and I wouldn't lose sleep over the pick. I think we can build depth without it.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing What records would Harvin set?
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redsoxsrule1437


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think some of you are really underestimating how good Harvin is and the things he could do for this offense.

I'd give up a second for him in a heart beat. Peace Welker.
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
No interest in the Pats trading for Harvin. Given the Pats cap situation and their holes - both in key starting positions and depth spots - trading the team's only high quality pick this year for a WR with injury concerns on the last year of his deal seems crazy to me.

He's a good player, but I don't see how it can fit in the Pats short or long term plans.


The Patriots have played in the Super Bowl and AFC championship in the last two seasons. Yes, they have holes in the defense, but our coaching makes up tremendously for the lack of talented players. Like Tzi said, I'd give up our 1st and 3rd day pick easily for Harvin. This guy was an MVP last season until he was injured. Special player.


You're missing the point:

1. The Pats have a depth problem insofar as they have a number of key pieces up for new contracts.

2. It's not just about 2013. 1st through 3rd round draft picks give you 3-5 years of cheap (relative to their talent level), cost controlled production. They're extremely valuable. Having a guy like Spikes on a rookie contract, as opposed to a veteran of a similar skill level, is the only way to maintain a deep competitive roster year to year. Trading those picks for what amounts to be a marginal upgrade - especially when there are FA WR's available for just money (and no trade compensation) makes no sense to me.

The team has an estimated $15M in cap room. If you think trading one of their 2 quality draft picks and spending $10M (Harvin's reported asking price) on a WR is a good idea, OK. We'll agree to disagree and move on. If the Pats are going to invest that kind of money in a WR, I'd want someone who is a significant upgrade to Welker - not someone who does most of the same things and maybe a little bit more vertically.


Harvin has all scrimmage records written in this offense. He isn't the equivalence of welker. See all those times welker got chased down? Harvin takes it in every single time. Then you minus the drop rate. The yac and setup brady and welker can create is unrivaled. Imagine harvin in that role. If the viking yield a 2nd rounder for Harvin, I absolutely don't see why we don't pull it.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Laughing What records would Harvin set?

I could see him breaking some of Welker's records.
patsfan25 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
No interest in the Pats trading for Harvin. Given the Pats cap situation and their holes - both in key starting positions and depth spots - trading the team's only high quality pick this year for a WR with injury concerns on the last year of his deal seems crazy to me.

He's a good player, but I don't see how it can fit in the Pats short or long term plans.


The Patriots have played in the Super Bowl and AFC championship in the last two seasons. Yes, they have holes in the defense, but our coaching makes up tremendously for the lack of talented players. Like Tzi said, I'd give up our 1st and 3rd day pick easily for Harvin. This guy was an MVP last season until he was injured. Special player.


You're missing the point:

1. The Pats have a depth problem insofar as they have a number of key pieces up for new contracts.

2. It's not just about 2013. 1st through 3rd round draft picks give you 3-5 years of cheap (relative to their talent level), cost controlled production. They're extremely valuable. Having a guy like Spikes on a rookie contract, as opposed to a veteran of a similar skill level, is the only way to maintain a deep competitive roster year to year. Trading those picks for what amounts to be a marginal upgrade - especially when there are FA WR's available for just money (and no trade compensation) makes no sense to me.

The team has an estimated $15M in cap room. If you think trading one of their 2 quality draft picks and spending $10M (Harvin's reported asking price) on a WR is a good idea, OK. We'll agree to disagree and move on. If the Pats are going to invest that kind of money in a WR, I'd want someone who is a significant upgrade to Welker - not someone who does most of the same things and maybe a little bit more vertically.


Harvin has all scrimmage records written in this offense. He isn't the equivalence of welker. See all those times welker got chased down? Harvin takes it in every single time. Then you minus the drop rate. The yac and setup brady and welker can create is unrivaled. Imagine harvin in that role. If the viking yield a 2nd rounder for Harvin, I absolutely don't see why we don't pull it.

How much money he wants. iwouldnt give him a longterm deal making 10 mill a yr before he has ever eclispsed 1000 yrds. I think Amendola could be lethal here and he isnt going to command as much as WW or Harvin if 10 mill is true.
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TKOhitter8737


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much money he wants. iwouldnt give him a longterm deal making 10 mill a yr before he has ever eclispsed 1000 yrds. I think Amendola could be lethal here and he isnt going to command as much as WW or Harvin if 10 mill is true.[/quote]

Why would'nt you its not his fault that his Qbs have been an 40 year old Brett Farve, Joe Webb, an average at best Ponder , Im probably missing another scrub. He's not even 25 yet getting a WR this young is very rare. Amendola is very nice but who are talking about a legit game changer in Harvin.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKOhitter8737 wrote:
Quote:
How much money he wants. iwouldnt give him a longterm deal making 10 mill a yr before he has ever eclispsed 1000 yrds. I think Amendola could be lethal here and he isnt going to command as much as WW or Harvin if 10 mill is true.


Why would'nt you its not his fault that his Qbs have been an 40 year old Brett Farve, Joe Webb, an average at best Ponder , Im probably missing another scrub. He's not even 25 yet getting a WR this young is very rare. Amendola is very nice but who are talking about a legit game changer in Harvin.

The best of the best WRs deserve 10 mill a yr. Of the best in the league only one WR that I get not breaking 1000 yrds lst yr was Fitzgerald w/ even worse QBs and historically bad OL. If he wants 10 million he has to show me he's at least in Julio Jone's, AJ Green and Roddy White's company. He clearly hasn't. I'd rather use the 10 mill sign Amendola, and another starting caliber player.
We aren't even talking about a WR that's been on his best behavior, productive and healthy. We're talking about one that's getting in fights w/ HC, getting hurt, and never broke 1000 yrds. Calvin, Green,Julio and Fitz probably break 1000 yrds in minnesota.
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TKOhitter8737


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:
TKOhitter8737 wrote:
Quote:
How much money he wants. iwouldnt give him a longterm deal making 10 mill a yr before he has ever eclispsed 1000 yrds. I think Amendola could be lethal here and he isnt going to command as much as WW or Harvin if 10 mill is true.


Why would'nt you its not his fault that his Qbs have been an 40 year old Brett Farve, Joe Webb, an average at best Ponder , Im probably missing another scrub. He's not even 25 yet getting a WR this young is very rare. Amendola is very nice but who are talking about a legit game changer in Harvin.

The best of the best WRs deserve 10 mill a yr. Of the best in the league only one WR that I get not breaking 1000 yrds lst yr was Fitzgerald w/ even worse QBs and historically bad OL. If he wants 10 million he has to show me he's at least in Julio Jone's, AJ Green and Roddy White's company. He clearly hasn't. I'd rather use the 10 mill sign Amendola, and another starting caliber player.
We aren't even talking about a WR that's been on his best behavior, productive and healthy. We're talking about one that's getting in fights w/ HC, getting hurt, and never broke 1000 yrds. Calvin, Green,Julio and Fitz probably break 1000 yrds in minnesota.


I get your point but also you canít forget what offense he's in. The guy's you mentioned are all in pass happy offences. Not one of those teams has any RB that would help the team becoming a balance team it cost ATL this year. Before he got hurt he had 60 catches in nine games tied with Welker for the lead. I get it he comes with risk; my point is how often a 25 year old WR becomes available like him. Especially in this day in age when teams base offense is 3 WR.

Now I will say if they can get Amendola for cheap and letís say cut Lloyd and bring in Bowe I would be fine with that. I just don't want to see the same guys on offense next year. I want to see more Ridley and running on 3rd and short.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKOhitter8737 wrote:
Donut wrote:
TKOhitter8737 wrote:
Quote:
How much money he wants. iwouldnt give him a longterm deal making 10 mill a yr before he has ever eclispsed 1000 yrds. I think Amendola could be lethal here and he isnt going to command as much as WW or Harvin if 10 mill is true.


Why would'nt you its not his fault that his Qbs have been an 40 year old Brett Farve, Joe Webb, an average at best Ponder , Im probably missing another scrub. He's not even 25 yet getting a WR this young is very rare. Amendola is very nice but who are talking about a legit game changer in Harvin.

The best of the best WRs deserve 10 mill a yr. Of the best in the league only one WR that I get not breaking 1000 yrds lst yr was Fitzgerald w/ even worse QBs and historically bad OL. If he wants 10 million he has to show me he's at least in Julio Jone's, AJ Green and Roddy White's company. He clearly hasn't. I'd rather use the 10 mill sign Amendola, and another starting caliber player.
We aren't even talking about a WR that's been on his best behavior, productive and healthy. We're talking about one that's getting in fights w/ HC, getting hurt, and never broke 1000 yrds. Calvin, Green,Julio and Fitz probably break 1000 yrds in minnesota.


I get your point but also you canít forget what offense he's in. The guy's you mentioned are all in pass happy offences. Not one of those teams has any RB that would help the team becoming a balance team it cost ATL this year. Before he got hurt he had 60 catches in nine games tied with Welker for the lead. I get it he comes with risk; my point is how often a 25 year old WR becomes available like him. Especially in this day in age when teams base offense is 3 WR.

Now I will say if they can get Amendola for cheap and letís say cut Lloyd and bring in Bowe I would be fine with that. I just don't want to see the same guys on offense next year. I want to see more Ridley and running on 3rd and short.

Cinci offense was 19th in attempts and 15th in completions. I wouldnt see that as pass happy.
I was actually surprised ARZ was 9th in attempts 14th comp
Regardless a bunch of WRs have outproduced Harvin and arent trying to get 10 mill a yr.
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terbo559


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me personally, I would rather have him over Welker and Lloyd. He is a better deep threat than Lloyd, and more explosive than Welker. He would also provide packages where he catch passes from the backfield. Yeah, he has some injury concerns here and there, but make him become a player like Welker who just catch passes, but not try to take big hits and fight for hard yards when unnecessary , and he should be able to last an entire season.

The only concern is how much money he is going to be asking for when a his contract is done.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terbo559 wrote:
He is a better deep threat than Lloyd.


Is there any reason people keep saying Harvin is a good deep threat? 50 of his 62 catches last year were 9 or fewer yards beyond the line of scrimmage. He only had 1 catch beyond 19 yards downfield (for 23 yards). 29 of his 62 catches (47%) were behind the line of scrimmage

I'm not doubting his speed or explosiveness, but he hasn't really ever proven he's anything more than a fast slot receiver.
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mission27


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Is there any reason people keep saying Harvin is a good deep threat? 50 of his 62 catches last year were 9 or fewer yards beyond the line of scrimmage. He only had 1 catch beyond 19 yards downfield (for 23 yards). 29 of his 62 catches (47%) were behind the line of scrimmage

I'm not doubting his speed or explosiveness, but he hasn't really ever proven he's anything more than a fast slot receiver.


Harvin's been stuck in Minnesotta and hasn't had the opportunity to go deep very often but given his skill set it's difficult to see him not succeeding in that role. Harvin has straight line speed and he's exceptionally quick. He's not going to win many jump balls but he doesn't have to if he can beat coverage with Tom Brady playing quarterback instead of Christian Ponder.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mission27 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Is there any reason people keep saying Harvin is a good deep threat? 50 of his 62 catches last year were 9 or fewer yards beyond the line of scrimmage. He only had 1 catch beyond 19 yards downfield (for 23 yards). 29 of his 62 catches (47%) were behind the line of scrimmage

I'm not doubting his speed or explosiveness, but he hasn't really ever proven he's anything more than a fast slot receiver.


Harvin's been stuck in Minnesotta and hasn't had the opportunity to go deep very often but given his skill set it's difficult to see him not succeeding in that role. Harvin has straight line speed and he's exceptionally quick. He's not going to win many jump balls but he doesn't have to if he can beat coverage with Tom Brady playing quarterback instead of Christian Ponder.


Being fast doesn't make you a good deep threat. I'm not saying he can't do it, but assuming he can i(or would be decidedly better than Lloyd) is a mistake.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy doesn't do much outside of the metrodome. 4.3 guys like percy and peterson look 4.2ish on that surface, just like 4.20 randy looked Usian Bolt like. Even Bernard Berrien seemed like a servicable down field threat when he played there.
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