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Joe Nobody


Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Posts: 454
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
SO...


Carson Palmer and Jones/Moore/Werner
or
Geno Smith and Michael Johnson/Bennett


Option A, and it's not close.


Baggabonez wrote:
Why o why can't we follow the model across the bay. Think of this draft as a wash. Use this draft to fix the OL and look for the QBotF in 2014 or 2015.


This.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Nobody wrote:
Quote:
SO...


Carson Palmer and Jones/Moore/Werner
or
Geno Smith and Michael Johnson/Bennett


Option A, and it's not close.


It isn't close? Why the hell not? Cut Palmer, pay Johnson the difference in Palmer's capt hit for this year. Draft a QBotf. Simple as that. How is it not close? There's more than one way to skin a cat.
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Joe Nobody


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't see us being a player in FA this year, and I don't trust Michael Johnson in the least. Dude was a slacker in college. I'm not about giving a guy like that any amount of coin.

Plus, Geno. Hell no. Not even on a dare.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Nobody wrote:
Can't see us being a player in FA this year, and I don't trust Michael Johnson in the least. Dude was a slacker in college. I'm not about giving a guy like that any amount of coin.

Yeah because every player who balls out after getting a big contract. And its a hypothetical, guy. Thinking we're not gonna be a player is completely irrelevant.

Joe Nobody wrote:
Plus, Geno. Hell no. Not even on a dare.

Before I address this, I should ask: Is this a Geno thing or a young QB especially from this 2013 thing?
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Joe Nobody


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Well who would you select with those 7 or 8 picks? Would Geno fit in that way, Nobody?
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Obviously, the Palmer cut is what would allow us to be players in FA. That's what the hypothetical is mostly about. So the question is are we better off with Palmer or with cap room?
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Joe Nobody


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Well who would you select with those 7 or 8 picks? Would Geno fit in that way, Nobody?


No.
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Joe Nobody


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Obviously, the Palmer cut is what would allow us to be players in FA. That's what the hypothetical is mostly about. So the question is are we better off with Palmer or with cap room?


Definitely the cap room, but we still won't have enough room to make any big splashes, nor should we attempt to. 2013 is going to more or less be a rinse & repeat of 2012. We're housecleaning and trying to find some young talent. Handing a buttload of money to one guy when our roster is one of the worst in the league would just be flat stupid.

Dump Palmer if he's not seen as an option beyond this year or next. I have absolutely no issue with that. I'm all for ripping off this band-aid and getting it over with. Just don't tank the cap immediately after opening up some breathing room. There's just no logic to it.


Working with the original two hypotheticals, I'd have to choose door #3. Cut Palmer and draft defense with that top pick. The QB position will get sorted out in its own time. Given the available options, right now is obviously not that time.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Nobody wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Obviously, the Palmer cut is what would allow us to be players in FA. That's what the hypothetical is mostly about. So the question is are we better off with Palmer or with cap room?


Definitely the cap room, but we still won't have enough room to make any big splashes, nor should we attempt to. 2013 is going to more or less be a rinse & repeat of 2012. We're housecleaning and trying to find some young talent. Handing a buttload of money to one guy when our roster is one of the worst in the league would just be flat stupid.

Dump Palmer if he's not seen as an option beyond this year or next. I have absolutely no issue with that. I'm all for ripping off this band-aid and getting it over with. Just don't tank the cap immediately after opening up some breathing room. There's just no logic to it.


Working with the original two hypotheticals, I'd have to choose door #3. Cut Palmer and draft defense with that top pick. The QB position will get sorted out in its own time. Given the available options, right now is obviously not that time.


Well, i agree with you. Dump Palmer, sign a couple mid priced FAs with the cap room saved and go with the best defender available if we stay at #3. Cutting Palmer saves 6M in cap room for 2013. You can fit a couple players in the first year of their contracts into a 6M cap hit.
I guess by not being players in FA, you meant not going after the big name guys and i would agree with that. But there's value to be found in the second wave.
And the other benefit of a cut is clearing the cap situation in future years.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Nobody wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Obviously, the Palmer cut is what would allow us to be players in FA. That's what the hypothetical is mostly about. So the question is are we better off with Palmer or with cap room?


Definitely the cap room, but we still won't have enough room to make any big splashes, nor should we attempt to. 2013 is going to more or less be a rinse & repeat of 2012. We're housecleaning and trying to find some young talent. Handing a buttload of money to one guy when our roster is one of the worst in the league would just be flat stupid.

Dump Palmer if he's not seen as an option beyond this year or next. I have absolutely no issue with that. I'm all for ripping off this band-aid and getting it over with. Just don't tank the cap immediately after opening up some breathing room. There's just no logic to it.


Working with the original two hypotheticals, I'd have to choose door #3. Cut Palmer and draft defense with that top pick. The QB position will get sorted out in its own time. Given the available options, right now is obviously not that time.


There we go. That's all I asked for.

Spending money =/= Stupidly spending money. I understand you seem to want to build through the draft, which is fine. But at the same time, there are FAs who can help this team. We don't have to overpay either; Reggie won't let us. You can sign players and have low cap hits for their first years too. So if we want to sign a big ticket guy (which I don't really want us to either), its really not far out of the realm of possibility. We aren't always going to be in salary cap hell.

(although I'm disappointed this seems to imply only one 1st rounder as opposed to 7)
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Joe Nobody


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Obviously, the Palmer cut is what would allow us to be players in FA. That's what the hypothetical is mostly about. So the question is are we better off with Palmer or with cap room?


Definitely the cap room, but we still won't have enough room to make any big splashes, nor should we attempt to. 2013 is going to more or less be a rinse & repeat of 2012. We're housecleaning and trying to find some young talent. Handing a buttload of money to one guy when our roster is one of the worst in the league would just be flat stupid.

Dump Palmer if he's not seen as an option beyond this year or next. I have absolutely no issue with that. I'm all for ripping off this band-aid and getting it over with. Just don't tank the cap immediately after opening up some breathing room. There's just no logic to it.


Working with the original two hypotheticals, I'd have to choose door #3. Cut Palmer and draft defense with that top pick. The QB position will get sorted out in its own time. Given the available options, right now is obviously not that time.


Well, i agree with you. Dump Palmer, sign a couple mid priced FAs with the cap room saved and go with the best defender available if we stay at #3. Cutting Palmer saves 6M in cap room for 2013. You can fit a couple players in the first year of their contracts into a 6M cap hit.
I guess by not being players in FA, you meant not going after the big name guys and i would agree with that. But there's value to be found in the second wave.
And the other benefit of a cut is clearing the cap situation in future years.


Absolutely. I'd also like to have some cap to carry over into 2014. This static salary cap idea is becoming a real nuisance. I don't expect we'll see much of a bump next year, so any carryover we can manage would be great.

Then again, we may cancel out most of what we save from cutting Palmer by having to eat McClain's cap hit. Dude should be the easiest cut we make, yet his contract makes him almost seem like someone we should give another chance.
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Joe Nobody


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Obviously, the Palmer cut is what would allow us to be players in FA. That's what the hypothetical is mostly about. So the question is are we better off with Palmer or with cap room?


Definitely the cap room, but we still won't have enough room to make any big splashes, nor should we attempt to. 2013 is going to more or less be a rinse & repeat of 2012. We're housecleaning and trying to find some young talent. Handing a buttload of money to one guy when our roster is one of the worst in the league would just be flat stupid.

Dump Palmer if he's not seen as an option beyond this year or next. I have absolutely no issue with that. I'm all for ripping off this band-aid and getting it over with. Just don't tank the cap immediately after opening up some breathing room. There's just no logic to it.


Working with the original two hypotheticals, I'd have to choose door #3. Cut Palmer and draft defense with that top pick. The QB position will get sorted out in its own time. Given the available options, right now is obviously not that time.


There we go. That's all I asked for.

Spending money =/= Stupidly spending money. I understand you seem to want to build through the draft, which is fine. But at the same time, there are FAs who can help this team. We don't have to overpay either; Reggie won't let us. You can sign players and have low cap hits for their first years too. So if we want to sign a big ticket guy (which I don't really want us to either), its really not far out of the realm of possibility. We aren't always going to be in salary cap hell.

(although I'm disappointed this seems to imply only one 1st rounder as opposed to 7)


We won't be getting any free agents with low cap numbers in the first two years of their contract unless no one else makes them an offer. No player with options is going to take less money up front to come to Oakland. They may take less to leave Oakland, but not to come here.

The biggest ticket FAs I'd hope to go after this year are backup QBs who can win games when called upon. Matt Moore and the like.

Well, unless we're counting out own FAs. I'm definitely willing to ante up to hang onto Bryant and Wheeler. They've proven their worth.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Nobody wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Joe Nobody wrote:
If it were a young QB that I thought had the goods, then this would be a completely different conversation. But I still wouldn't be the guy who gave Johnson a fat contract.

As for this being a hypothetical, if we're completely suspending reality, I'd like to start out with 7 or 8 first round picks. Otherwise, keeping at least one foot on the ground would seem to be the rational approach.


Obviously, the Palmer cut is what would allow us to be players in FA. That's what the hypothetical is mostly about. So the question is are we better off with Palmer or with cap room?


Definitely the cap room, but we still won't have enough room to make any big splashes, nor should we attempt to. 2013 is going to more or less be a rinse & repeat of 2012. We're housecleaning and trying to find some young talent. Handing a buttload of money to one guy when our roster is one of the worst in the league would just be flat stupid.

Dump Palmer if he's not seen as an option beyond this year or next. I have absolutely no issue with that. I'm all for ripping off this band-aid and getting it over with. Just don't tank the cap immediately after opening up some breathing room. There's just no logic to it.


Working with the original two hypotheticals, I'd have to choose door #3. Cut Palmer and draft defense with that top pick. The QB position will get sorted out in its own time. Given the available options, right now is obviously not that time.


Well, i agree with you. Dump Palmer, sign a couple mid priced FAs with the cap room saved and go with the best defender available if we stay at #3. Cutting Palmer saves 6M in cap room for 2013. You can fit a couple players in the first year of their contracts into a 6M cap hit.
I guess by not being players in FA, you meant not going after the big name guys and i would agree with that. But there's value to be found in the second wave.
And the other benefit of a cut is clearing the cap situation in future years.


Absolutely. I'd also like to have some cap to carry over into 2014. This static salary cap idea is becoming a real nuisance. I don't expect we'll see much of a bump next year, so any carryover we can manage would be great.

Then again, we may cancel out most of what we save from cutting Palmer by having to eat McClain's cap hit. Dude should be the easiest cut we make, yet his contract makes him almost seem like someone we should give another chance.


McClain is more expensive cap-wise to cut than to keep but the difference is only around 500K. His release is a no-brainer to me.
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Dreadymatt


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: OffSeason Hypothetical Reply with quote

101Raider wrote:
I wasn't sure which thread to put this in since it's a Salary Cap/Free Agent/Draft question. MODS if this would be better suited in one of the other threads I would not be offended at all to have it closed and moved.

So... would the Raiders be better off short/long term if we were to

1. Cut Carson Palmer saving a potential 6 million (assuming that number is accurate)

2. Use the saved cap space to sign a legit Defensive End- Michael Johnson I'm looking at you... or Michael Bennett

3. Draft Geno Smith @ #3



Now I'm just spit balling here, but this is my thought process. I like Carson, I think he played better than most give him credit for. However, the guy is obviously in the twilight of his career. Looking towards the future must be a priority.

For this hypothetical, I'm assuming that a draft day trade does not materialize and I'm most def playing devils advocate here. My number one priority this offseason is to get a pass rusher. With cap money saved we could grab what in my opinion is our most pressing need, pass rusher.

In the draft, I think there's a large gap between Jones, Moore and Werner from the next quality pass rusher. But those three all have questions which make it difficult to draft in the top 5. In a nutshell: Jones obviously medical, Moore his explosion and Werner his motor and quality of competition. Other top choices involve a "franchise" LT when we have one-so basically improving our RT tackle position (so begins the argument of positional worth) and Star who's devalued in my opinion by this being the best DT class in mind EVER.

Let me preface the Geno thing with Geno falls out of my top 5 but in my top 10 in my "big board." However, Geno is interesting. I really don't get all of the hate he's receiving. His completion percentage is incredible and I get all the talk about his offense centered around the screen game, but come on a percentage in the 70s obviously displays good accuracy and intelligence. I've heard he doesn't throw the deep ball, but I'm not sure where that's coming from. The Smith I've seen he's been show great arm strength and accuracy throwing deep. He's athletic (obviously not RGIII or Kaepernick) but it's still there and he seems to have good pocket awareness (though this declined abit as his season progressed). Best of all, he's intelligent with the football. I'd take a 6 int season any day of the week. If he's franchise caliber in McKenzie's mind then I'm good, assuming we have a plan for DE.

SO...


Carson Palmer and Jones/Moore/Werner
or
Geno Smith and Michael Johnson/Bennett


good calls....on the possibility of Geno, I say we use that as our inner negotiating rsponse - if CP don't sign for much less we cut him (trade) and bring Geno in for an equal shoot-out with tP
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