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I'll say what no one wants to say - TT is an average GM
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AaronCharles


Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 1397
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: I'll say what no one wants to say - TT is an average GM Reply with quote

I'll say what no one wants to say. The elephant in the room. The thing no one wants to admit:

TT is an average GM. He isn't great, he may not even be good. Let's go position by position, and you will come over to my view. Each position will get either a passing, failing, or incomplete grade.

Offense

QB - Pass - Barely. Rodgers was a gift (lets be honest), Flynn was a great backup, but aside from him, Ted hasn't been able to shore up the back up spot.

RB - Fail - Grant is the only back with any long-term success. DeJuan Harris is cute, a 2nd string back at best. Brandon Jackson was a huge bust. I wish Benson could have stayed healthy. Passing on Lynch was a massive miscalculation.

FB - Incomplete - Kuhn is just a guy who the fans love for some reason. Vonta Leach is tearing it up in Baltimore. To be fair, the FB isn't something we integrally use.

TE - Incomplete - We all know the story about Finley. Quarless and DJ Williams are incomplete. Ryan Taylor and Crabtree are nice #3 guys.

WR - Pass - No explanation needed

LT - Fail - If Clifton doesn't have the game of his life in the Super Bowl, we probably lose. Newhouse is awful. I hope Sherrod can return.

LG - Pass - TJ Lang is sufficient, I think. But we let Wahle go.

C - Incomplete - We'll see what EDS brings. Saturday was a bust. In hindsight, Wells should have been resigned.

RG - Pass - Sitton has struggled a tad, but I like him.

RT - Pass - I like Bulaga. I know some people don't but I do.

Defense

DT- Incomplete - Aside from Raji, what do we have here?

DE - Fail - Pickett was a great signing, but the rest are just bodies. Neal? Wilson? Blah.

ILB - Pass - I like Bishop (though I think he was a Sherman pick?) and DJ Smith. Cutting Barnett over Hawk was a mistake, but oh well.

OLB - Incomplete - Matthews is Matthews, but he has yet to find a guy opposite him.

CB - Pass - Love our corners

S - Incomplete - We really miss Collins, but after him, Ted hasn't been able to find much. Burnett is okay, I guess.

Special Teams

K - Pass - Crosby has struggled, but i'll give him another year before i really want him gone.

P - Pass - Love Masthay


Pass: 9 positions
Fail: 3 positions
Incomplete: 6 positions


As you can see, a lot of incompletes, and some fails at important positions. GMing is the draft AND free agency, and Ted seems to completely avoid the latter like the plague. Guys like Walden, and DeJaun Harris are cute, but you can't build a championship team with UDFAs.

You can't cut Cullen Jenkins, and replace him with DPs.

You can't cut Scott Wells, and replace him with crap.

You can't cut Chad Clifton, and replace him with crap.

You can't cut Jon Ryan, and not replace him for several years.

You can't keep trading down and getting a bunch of average players, hoping one of them pans out. We've reached the point where he's just replacing his draft picks with more draft picks.

You can't have a defense ranked in the bottom 5, and retain your defense coordinator.

You can't have a massive amount of injuries, and not look at your strength and conditioning coach, and the way your players train.

You can't have a small [inappropriate/removed] offense line, then wonder why your team gets shoved around.



At this point, I have no faith we'll actually be any good next season. A brutal schedule combined with the fact that I am absolutely positive Ted does not have the ability to fill the holes of this team. We have seen it year in and year out.

I like our coaching staff, our GM is just okay. This isn't a reaction to the SF loss, its something I've been thinking of for a long time.

At this point, I would welcome a new GM.

Thoughts welcome.
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2Bigby0


Joined: 02 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a horrible assessment in my opinion. Grading Pass/Fail on certain positions is silly. Look at how he has shaped the Packers organization as it is today.

You also fail to recognize the fact that he took a risk in hiring Mike McCarthy who is one of the best head coaches in the NFL. He's easily top 10, possibly even top 5.

Average GM's get fired after 4 or 5 years. They cannot sustain success. The Packers are built for long term success.

He's brought in Rodgers, Jennings, Bulaga, Lang, Sitton, Nelson, Cobb, Jones, Finley, Pickett, Raji, Matthews, Woodson, Shields, Hayward, Bishop, and Hawk and Grant.

He's had success in bringing guys off the street as well. A very overlooked part of his success.

Just look at the overall success the Packers have as an organization. The stadium is being renovated, they run the financials of the organization very well, the pipeline of talent is continuously replenished and the product on the field has been up there with the best teams in the league over the past 4 seasons.

I don't think your analysis isn't very accurate.
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driftwood


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AaronCharles wrote:

TT is an average GM. He isn't great, he may not even be good. Let's go position by position, and you will come over to my view. Each position will get either a passing, failing, or incomplete grade.


Thoughts welcome.


that's fine, you can say that... & ill say this...

TT is probably the best GM since Lombardi

yes arguably better than Wolf...


Last edited by driftwood on Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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spilltray


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So much fail here. They had to let guys like Wahle, Rivera, Sharper go. That isn't a fault on TT, that was the contract situation Sherman left.

Barnett, Jenkins, Wells, none were cut. All were FA.

Incidentally, Wells wouldn't have been a smart resigning either, and Jenkins sure hasn't shown to be worth the sort of contract he got on the open market as well.

Bishop was a Thompson pick.

Alot of the issues here come from injuries. They are unpredictable. Things like Sherrod, Perry, Neal, Harrell, Worthy, especially on the DL, that's just alot of bad luck, not bad drafting.

TT doesn't decide if they keep or fire Dom Capers. That is squarely McCarthy's decision.

Other teams have smaller OLs and don't get shoved around. The OL weaknesses have always been player issues and this year were injury based. It happens. Not a GM issue.

FA is a trap and should be avoided. Name players get overpaid and TT has done a good job of trying to find value role players in FA. The draft is the only good way to actually build and FA should be avoided unless you think a player is being undervalued on the market.
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2Bigby0


Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 626
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
So much fail here. They had to let guys like Wahle, Rivera, Sharper go. That isn't a fault on TT, that was the contract situation Sherman left.

Barnett, Jenkins, Wells, none were cut. All were FA.

Incidentally, Wells wouldn't have been a smart resigning either, and Jenkins sure hasn't shown to be worth the sort of contract he got on the open market as well.

Bishop was a Thompson pick.

Alot of the issues here come from injuries. They are unpredictable. Things like Sherrod, Perry, Neal, Harrell, Worthy, especially on the DL, that's just alot of bad luck, not bad drafting.

TT doesn't decide if they keep or fire Dom Capers. That is squarely McCarthy's decision.

Other teams have smaller OLs and don't get shoved around. The OL weaknesses have always been player issues and this year were injury based. It happens. Not a GM issue.

FA is a trap and should be avoided. Name players get overpaid and TT has done a good job of trying to find value role players in FA. The draft is the only good way to actually build and FA should be avoided unless you think a player is being undervalued on the market.


Yes to all of this.

Ted Thompson is easily one of the best GM's in the NFL right now.
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Unballed Melon


Joined: 09 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know...

4 playoff years in a row, one superbowl win, and a team that is set up to make playoff runs for the next 2-3 years? That's average for the NFL now?

Screw individual position abilities, he gets players at the right value at the right time that let the team win. No team can be perfect at every position.
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AlexGreen#20


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: I'll say what no one wants to say - TT is an average GM Reply with quote

AaronCharles wrote:
I'll say what no one wants to say. The elephant in the room. The thing no one wants to admit:

TT is an average GM. He isn't great, he may not even be good. Let's go position by position, and you will come over to my view. Each position will get either a passing, failing, or incomplete grade.

Offense

QB - Pass - Barely. Rodgers was a gift (lets be honest), Flynn was a great backup, but aside from him, Ted hasn't been able to shore up the back up spot.

RB - Fail - Grant is the only back with any long-term success. DeJuan Harris is cute, a 2nd string back at best. Brandon Jackson was a huge bust. I wish Benson could have stayed healthy. Passing on Lynch was a massive miscalculation.

FB - Incomplete - Kuhn is just a guy who the fans love for some reason. Vonta Leach is tearing it up in Baltimore. To be fair, the FB isn't something we integrally use.

TE - Incomplete - We all know the story about Finley. Quarless and DJ Williams are incomplete. Ryan Taylor and Crabtree are nice #3 guys.

WR - Pass - No explanation needed

LT - Fail - If Clifton doesn't have the game of his life in the Super Bowl, we probably lose. Newhouse is awful. I hope Sherrod can return.

LG - Pass - TJ Lang is sufficient, I think. But we let Wahle go.

C - Incomplete - We'll see what EDS brings. Saturday was a bust. In hindsight, Wells should have been resigned.

RG - Pass - Sitton has struggled a tad, but I like him.

RT - Pass - I like Bulaga. I know some people don't but I do.

Defense

DT- Incomplete - Aside from Raji, what do we have here?

DE - Fail - Pickett was a great signing, but the rest are just bodies. Neal? Wilson? Blah.

ILB - Pass - I like Bishop (though I think he was a Sherman pick?) and DJ Smith. Cutting Barnett over Hawk was a mistake, but oh well.

OLB - Incomplete - Matthews is Matthews, but he has yet to find a guy opposite him.

CB - Pass - Love our corners

S - Incomplete - We really miss Collins, but after him, Ted hasn't been able to find much. Burnett is okay, I guess.

Special Teams

K - Pass - Crosby has struggled, but i'll give him another year before i really want him gone.

P - Pass - Love Masthay


Pass: 9 positions
Fail: 3 positions
Incomplete: 6 positions


As you can see, a lot of incompletes, and some fails at important positions. GMing is the draft AND free agency, and Ted seems to completely avoid the latter like the plague. Guys like Walden, and DeJaun Harris are cute, but you can't build a championship team with UDFAs.

You can't cut Cullen Jenkins, and replace him with DPs.

You can't cut Scott Wells, and replace him with crap.

You can't cut Chad Clifton, and replace him with crap.

You can't cut Jon Ryan, and not replace him for several years.

You can't keep trading down and getting a bunch of average players, hoping one of them pans out. We've reached the point where he's just replacing his draft picks with more draft picks.

You can't have a defense ranked in the bottom 5, and retain your defense coordinator.

You can't have a massive amount of injuries, and not look at your strength and conditioning coach, and the way your players train.

You can't have a small [inappropriate/removed] offense line, then wonder why your team gets shoved around.



At this point, I have no faith we'll actually be any good next season. A brutal schedule combined with the fact that I am absolutely positive Ted does not have the ability to fill the holes of this team. We have seen it year in and year out.

I like our coaching staff, our GM is just okay. This isn't a reaction to the SF loss, its something I've been thinking of for a long time.

At this point, I would welcome a new GM.

Thoughts welcome.


WUT?

1. We didn't cut Cullen Jenkins, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton, and maybe Jon Ryan, (Don't care to look it up on account of the fact he's a fricking punter)

2. How many times did we trade up in last year's draft?

3. What was our defense ranked this year under the same DC?

4. Who on the line is small? You're pissed we let Wells walk but are in the same post complaining we're small?
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PossibleCabbage


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
FA is a trap and should be avoided. Name players get overpaid and TT has done a good job of trying to find value role players in FA. The draft is the only good way to actually build and FA should be avoided unless you think a player is being undervalued on the market.


Very much this.

Signing a free agent who has multiple suitors is generally just a function of overvaluing that player more than your competitors do.

It's just so rarely a good idea.

Low risk veteran FA is fine, but you don't usually get much out of that, and TT is pretty active in that respect.
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ugLymayNe


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing


Ok. Humor me, Who would you rather have as our GM......Ted Thompson or Thomas Dimitroff?

Or what about Baalke(sp?)/Schnieder. If TEd is average, who would you take over him?Only name that can be mentioned is Ozzie Newsome.
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General_Bean


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if all of your incompletes are passes, that makes it 15 passes and 3 fails...not bad TT

QB - Pass barely, and you call Rodgers a gift, but TT didn't have to take him. We did have other glaring weaknesses to take a backup QB in round 1.

I mean I welcome your opinion on the subject. I will disagree and say I think TT has done a better job than say more than 75% of the leagues GMs. I wouldn't say he's my favorite GM, but I know nothing about being one.

This may sound like a dumb statement, but I think it's all luck anyway. Go back to a Driver or Brady, if GM's really knew there potential (along with scouts) they wouldn't have been a 6th or 7th round pick. It's a toss up and right now some of TT's specific positional picks haven't been great. Belichick doesn't exactly draft great defensive backs.

I definitely disagree with most of the bold statements. I understand your frustration, but it's not like TT wanted to replace these guys with lesser talented players. It's just not easy to find great talent at every position. Some of these statement are all hindsight anyway, if saturday performed better than Wells, that statement is null. If injuries to Perry/Worthy never happened and they played great, then no argument is made.

You can't keep trading down and getting a bunch of average players, hoping one of them pans out. We've reached the point where he's just replacing his draft picks with more draft picks.


To each his own about how one drafts, but if you play the odds, the more picks you obtain the higher chance of having more players pan out. Just because a player is labeled first round, doesn't mean he's going to be pro bowl material. Some of our first rounders haven't even seen the field. This also goes back to my "the draft is just luck" theory. you can improve odds by taking someone that fits the system, but he can still not perform well or be injury prone.

[/b]
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JBURGE25


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: I'll say what no one wants to say - TT is an average GM Reply with quote

AaronCharles wrote:

Offense

1.) QB - Pass - Barely. Rodgers was a gift (lets be honest), Flynn was a great backup, but aside from him, Ted hasn't been able to shore up the back up spot.

2.) LT - Fail - If Clifton doesn't have the game of his life in the Super Bowl, we probably lose. Newhouse is awful. I hope Sherrod can return.

3.) RG - Pass - Sitton has struggled a tad, but I like him.

Defense

4.) DT- Incomplete - Aside from Raji, what do we have here?

5.) DE - Fail - Pickett was a great signing, but the rest are just bodies. Neal? Wilson? Blah.

6.) OLB - Incomplete - Matthews is Matthews, but he has yet to find a guy opposite him.

7.) S - Incomplete - We really miss Collins, but after him, Ted hasn't been able to find much. Burnett is okay, I guess.

8.) You can't cut Cullen Jenkins, and replace him with DPs.

9.) You can't cut Scott Wells, and replace him with crap.

10.) You can't cut Chad Clifton, and replace him with crap.

At this point, I would welcome a new GM.


This is about as ridiculous as it gets for me. I kept the stuff that I think is just absurd.

1.) BARELY. Ted drafter Rodgers in his first draft as the GM. This alone makes it a resounding yes. Then he drafts Flynn, who turns into a 8 million dollar signing when he leaves. He has hit on 2 starting calibre QBs, which is more that a majority of the GMs in the league can say.

2.) He did not get Clifton, yes. But what he did do was draft a LT in the 1st round the year Clifton was leaving. It is not his fault that player has been on the IR twice. Sherrod could still pan out for us. Should be incomplete.

3.) I just don't like the struggled a tad. Top 3 RG in the league. If not, top 5.

4.) We have Raji. Name me a 3-4 team that has a better NT than us. I would say maybe Sopoaga, Ratliff and Hampton, but hes sliding.

5.) Fail? What? The Pickett signing was great, like you said. We have also spent 2nd round picks on DEs that are incomplete as of now. Neal has been far too hurt, but was our 2nd most effective pass rusher this year IIRC. Worthy was hurt a lot this year. There is talent, but I agree we need to find someone to replace Pickett.

6.) Matthews is Matthews, which means he is a top 5 3-4 OLB in the league. Not too shabby. We spent a 1st round pick on a guy with promise, who played, what, 6 games? Give him a chance before you discard that pick.

7.) Collins was a masterful find. Burnett is good. We have yet to spend a high pick on a safety, which I hope we do this year. As far as I'm concerned, with the rounds we have drafted safeties, I am more than satisfied with the results.

8.) Yes you can cut Cullen Jenkins and replace him with what we did. It seems you don't understand how a salary cap works, we can't keep everybody.

9.) Again, yes. We can't afford him. Saturday may not have turned out too well as a starter, but i guarantee EDS learned more from him than he did the OL coach.

10.) We did not replace Cliffy with crap. We drafted a promising LT in the first round, who shattered his leg. Damnit Ted, why didn't you pick someone who wouldn't break his leg in 2 places. Idiot.


It seems to me you expect Ted to hit on every position every draft pick. Ted has put together one of the better teams in the NFL, and one that will hold that position for years to come. I feel blessed to have him as our GM, and many other teams would as well. Appreciate what you have. If you want to hate on Capers, be my guest. But this is just something I don't understand, and didn't expect to see in the forum this off season.

/rant
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HyponGrey


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QB - Flynn and AR didn't start out well either. Contrary to post 2012 opinion, QB's take time.

RB - Bitter over Lynch

LT - Freak injury, and a 5th round pick who was projected as a RT/G

C - Wells left of his own accord, rumors are he didn't want to come back. He was insulted at having to compete with Spitz, then not getting an extension the year before.

OLB - Injury, a UDFA, a cheap FA signing, and a couple of OLB/ILB

NT - Pickett.

DE - The rest are young and inexperienced. 2 rookies, a 7th round pick, and a guy in his second healthy season who missed the first 4 games.

S - Freak injury, and inexperience. Burnett had his first full healthy season this year, Jennings just got off the PS, McMillian and Richardson are rookies, and Woodson was injured after moving over pretty much full time.

OL is actually big for a ZBS.
Our S&C Squad specializes in keeping players OFF the field, so #s will skew.
Let's give the players some time to develop in our complex Defense.
I'm not sure anybody was even thinking TT is an average GM.
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svp


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is exactly the type of thing TT wants you to think.


Trap=inyougo
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Pack4life7


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's an above average GM?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: I'll say what no one wants to say - TT is an average GM Reply with quote

AaronCharles wrote:
<text>
Please try to do this for another GM.
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