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ServantofYHWH


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
...guess the better question is "What do we do at S" now that Glover Quin will be testing out the market.

I'm confident a deal can be worked out, but if someone with a heavy need for a S goes over the top with an offer and Quin walks...where does S fall on our list of needs? Does it trump the need of an ILB, NT or WR?


WR, NT, S, ILB.

I had to resist putting QB in that list Smile
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LORK 88


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
...guess the better question is "What do we do at S" now that Glover Quin will be testing out the market.

I'm confident a deal can be worked out, but if someone with a heavy need for a S goes over the top with an offer and Quin walks...where does S fall on our list of needs? Does it trump the need of an ILB, NT or WR?

If we lose Quin and want to go cheap, we could sign Gerald Sensabaugh. Personally, I think it'd be awesome to bring in Pat Chung as he's most likely not back with New England. Either way, I think we could sign someone in free agency so I wouldn't be overly concerned with the position if Quin leaves. I already want to draft a corner round 2 or 3 so absolute worst case scenario we take a safety instead.
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Texansfan713


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could see the Sensabaugh signing if we lose Quin to free agency. He is familiar with the system and Wade Phillips and he played pretty decent for Dallas last season. If we don't sign a Safety in free agency I could see us using our top pick on a guy like Matt Elam, who I really like. He could play both safety positions. Another choice is trading out of round 1 and into early-mid round 2 and pick up a guy like Eric Reid. I hope we don't let Quin leave via free agency.

I might be in the minority in that I don't want us to draft a CB in round 2 or 3. CB isn't THAT big of a need to me. I think Harris can do a good job as the nickle corner, and we havent seen what Routt can do on the team. Plus if we resign McCain on the cheap, then there is no way I see us going CB in round 2 or 3.
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Dawgtx


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LORK 88 wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
...guess the better question is "What do we do at S" now that Glover Quin will be testing out the market.

I'm confident a deal can be worked out, but if someone with a heavy need for a S goes over the top with an offer and Quin walks...where does S fall on our list of needs? Does it trump the need of an ILB, NT or WR?

If we lose Quin and want to go cheap, we could sign Gerald Sensabaugh. Personally, I think it'd be awesome to bring in Pat Chung as he's most likely not back with New England. Either way, I think we could sign someone in free agency so I wouldn't be overly concerned with the position if Quin leaves. I already want to draft a corner round 2 or 3 so absolute worst case scenario we take a safety instead.


We always seem to make a stab at our "needs" in free agency. It may not always be the perfect fit, but we always seem to find someone on the cheap that allows us a little more freedom to go BPA.
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ServantofYHWH


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as safety goes we usually sign somebody midseason, good for the season, and after the season they go to crap. I'd rather we just resign GQ so we don't have to continue this trend.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LORK 88 wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
...guess the better question is "What do we do at S" now that Glover Quin will be testing out the market.

I'm confident a deal can be worked out, but if someone with a heavy need for a S goes over the top with an offer and Quin walks...where does S fall on our list of needs? Does it trump the need of an ILB, NT or WR?

If we lose Quin and want to go cheap, we could sign Gerald Sensabaugh. Personally, I think it'd be awesome to bring in Pat Chung as he's most likely not back with New England. Either way, I think we could sign someone in free agency so I wouldn't be overly concerned with the position if Quin leaves. I already want to draft a corner round 2 or 3 so absolute worst case scenario we take a safety instead.


I can see Sensy, but I would rather take chances on Quentin Jammer and move him to S; He's getting up there in age (33) but has worked with Wade Phillips in the past in his stint in SD. His size is nearly identical to Quin, and he has a very good resume as a standout for the Chargers since 2005...
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
LORK 88 wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
...guess the better question is "What do we do at S" now that Glover Quin will be testing out the market.

I'm confident a deal can be worked out, but if someone with a heavy need for a S goes over the top with an offer and Quin walks...where does S fall on our list of needs? Does it trump the need of an ILB, NT or WR?

If we lose Quin and want to go cheap, we could sign Gerald Sensabaugh. Personally, I think it'd be awesome to bring in Pat Chung as he's most likely not back with New England. Either way, I think we could sign someone in free agency so I wouldn't be overly concerned with the position if Quin leaves. I already want to draft a corner round 2 or 3 so absolute worst case scenario we take a safety instead.


I can see Sensy, but I would rather take chances on Quentin Jammer and move him to S; He's getting up there in age (33) but has worked with Wade Phillips in the past in his stint in SD. His size is nearly identical to Quin, and he has a very good resume as a standout for the Chargers since 2005...


Sensabaugh cant cover worth a damn so you can ditch that idea.

Why would the Texans want to infuse their team with an aging vetran in a position that he has never played before in the NFL.

How about we could trade back, and draft a safety with our 1st pick because defense wins championships not offense. And having to get throught Brady and Manning to get to the Super Bowl, and no matter who we draft on offense we will never be able to keep up with them.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckwild wrote:
How about we could trade back, and draft a safety with our 1st pick because defense wins championships not offense. And having to get throught Brady and Manning to get to the Super Bowl, and no matter who we draft on offense we will never be able to keep up with them.


I'm not opposed to the idea, but the S class is pretty thin this year. Kenny Vaccaro might be a top 10-15 player, but after that? Matt Elam or Eric Reed? The overhyped TJ McDonald? Slow footed Baccari Rambo? Combine standout Shamarko Thomas? They're good players, but I'd say that would be a step backwards vs what Glover Quin brought to the table.

You could always move a slower CB to S - Maybe draft Jonathan Banks? David Amerson? I don't know, hence why I'm asking. Very Happy
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like them to take a look at Reid and Cyprien who didn't work out at the combine, But Elam is more of a SS, and stay away from McDonalnd as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckwild wrote:
I would like them to take a look at Reid and Cyprien who didn't work out at the combine, But Elam is more of a SS, and stay away from McDonalnd as well.

Reed I can see early and with the intent to start on day 1 (well, not exactly a starter, but someone who COULD start one day) but John Cyprien? To START? No way would I see that as a good move. Wasn't like the guy was some stud in college - productive in tackles, yes but that's about it. Shiloh Keo was productive in college, and we're ready for him to leave...

If we look at Cyprien as a replacement for Quin - which is the crux of this discussion, from what I have seen - then we are in for a horrible season from our secondary, throwing a very undervalued rookie in as a starter
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reject the new premise of the thread that seems to be that not franchising Quin means losing him. You don't franchise healthy young players you plan on resigning unless you are just doing it to finish up his deal. You guys are vastly overestimating the market for a non-playmaking safety like Quin and letting his agent dip his toe in the water is a reasonable risk for a player that could be replaced with one of our 4 picks in the first 3rd rounds. He's a demoted CB that is not even one of the top 5 safeties on the market, better yet top 5 safeties in the game (which franchising him would pay him as). He has far greater value to us than other teams that need a safety, but he is clearly inferior to Daniel Manning who is a complete safety where Quin tops out a good tackler who can cover most of the TEs we face (but not the elite like Hernandez). I'm all for bringing in another safety (speedy, rangy center field type) as #3, but I seriously doubt Quin will be deluged with $6 million/season offers and will end up back with us at a reasonable 4 year / $15-$18 ish salary.

I have no idea why Texans fans continue to freak out any time we expose players to FA, especially with Rick's track record with guys like Mario, Dunta, Brisiel, Dreessen, Ryans, Winston, etc that got vastly overpaid on the open market leading to lose/lose deals for their teams and the players. The Ravens are about the only team that has done well with our FA's, but those players were simply better fits for them than they were for us (Leach/Pollard/Jones). Replacing Ed Reed with Glover Quin would be like replacing Ray Lewis with Zac Diles. Quin/Pollard were 1/2 of one of the 5 worst secondaries in NFL history and I doubt anyone is eager to recreate that (even if Jackson, McCain, Wilson were even weaker links). All teams need guys like Quin that just do the boring stuff like tackling and basic coverage on tertiary targets, but you PAY for STARS to make big plays, cover other playmakers, and Glover Quin is just a guy.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
I reject the new premise of the thread that seems to be that not franchising Quin means losing him. You don't franchise healthy young players you plan on resigning unless you are just doing it to finish up his deal. You guys are vastly overestimating the market for a non-playmaking safety like Quin and letting his agent dip his toe in the water is a reasonable risk for a player that could be replaced with one of our 4 picks in the first 3rd rounds. He's a demoted CB that is not even one of the top 5 safeties on the market, better yet top 5 safeties in the game (which franchising him would pay him as). He has far greater value to us than other teams that need a safety, but he is clearly inferior to Daniel Manning who is a complete safety where Quin tops out a good tackler who can cover most of the TEs we face (but not the elite like Hernandez). I'm all for bringing in another safety (speedy, rangy center field type) as #3, but I seriously doubt Quin will be deluged with $6 million/season offers and will end up back with us at a reasonable 4 year / $15-$18 ish salary.

I have no idea why Texans fans continue to freak out any time we expose players to FA, especially with Rick's track record with guys like Mario, Dunta, Brisiel, Dreessen, Jason Allen, etc that got vastly overpaid on the open market leading to lose/lose deals for their teams and the players. The Ravens are about the only team that has done well with our FA's, but those players were simply better fits for them than they were for us. Replacing Ed Reed with Glover Quin would be like replacing Ray Lewis with Zac Diles. All teams need guys like Quin that just do the boring stuff like tackling and basic coverage, but you PAY for STARS to make plays and Glover Quin is just a guy.


I agree with 2 things here, 1 is quin is valuable to us, not to others

2 I think we need a play making 3rd safety.....someone who is disciplined enough to stay deep when they have the responsibility
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
I reject the new premise of the thread that seems to be that not franchising Quin means losing him. You don't franchise healthy young players you plan on resigning unless you are just doing it to finish up his deal. You guys are vastly overestimating the market for a non-playmaking safety like Quin and letting his agent dip his toe in the water is a reasonable risk for a player that could be replaced with one of our 4 picks in the first 3rd rounds.

Any other year, I would agree...but with a salary floor coming into effect this offseason (I THINK it's this offseason) you're going to see middle-level talent getting large deals, just because teams have a needs to fill up cap. Guys who have no business making big money WILL be making big money, simply because teams have to spend it. Nobody is allowed to be like Mike Brown and the Bengals, keeping cap numbers low.

Why else do you think someone like Brian Hartline would get close to $7MM/year? Teams are going to be scrambling to get to that floor, and after the big names on the market are signed, teams are going to have an excess amount of money, and no real names worthy of not to go after, save for a three year starter with experience at CB and S. It's not that Quin is WORTH it, it's just that the CBA stipulates that teams with the scratch are going to have to spend it.

Quote:
He's a demoted CB that is not even one of the top 5 safeties on the market, better yet top 5 safeties in the game (which franchising him would pay him as). He has far greater value to us than other teams that need a safety, but he is clearly inferior to Daniel Manning who is a complete safety where Quin tops out a good tackler who can cover most of the TEs we face (but not the elite like Hernandez). I'm all for bringing in another safety (speedy, rangy center field type) as #3, but I seriously doubt Quin will be deluged with $6 million/season offers and will end up back with us at a reasonable 4 year / $15-$18 ish salary.

For the most part, I agree...but that salary floor is going to establish some really "out there" deals. Yes, teams will be looking at the likes of LaRon Landry and DaShon Goldson, but once those two are off the market, and a team like the Browns are sitting there with a lot of money and no additions to show for it, you'll see GMs taking very big risks on players who represent a very low reward.

In regards to the needs at #3 - I agree, and I can hope the Texans really invest time and effort in getting to know NC State CB David Amerson. Guy showed that he had some positional speed at CB, but the word is that he doesn't play that fast. IMO, it doesn't matter - anyone who can pick off 13 passes for 205 yards in 2011 has the goods to play whatever spot he wants to play in the secondary. Safety, CB...whatever. I'm on board with that, but don't risk your current infastructure because you THINK you can improve.

Quote:
I have no idea why Texans fans continue to freak out any time we expose players to FA, especially with Rick's track record with guys like Mario, Dunta, Brisiel, Dreessen, Ryans, Winston, etc that got vastly overpaid on the open market leading to lose/lose deals for their teams and the players. The Ravens are about the only team that has done well with our FA's, but those players were simply better fits for them than they were for us (Leach/Pollard/Jones). Replacing Ed Reed with Glover Quin would be like replacing Ray Lewis with Zac Diles. Quin/Pollard were 1/2 of one of the 5 worst secondaries in NFL history and I doubt anyone is eager to recreate that (even if Jackson, McCain, Wilson were even weaker links). All teams need guys like Quin that just do the boring stuff like tackling and basic coverage on tertiary targets, but you PAY for STARS to make big plays, cover other playmakers, and Glover Quin is just a guy.

I'm not necessarily freaking out, but I do feel as if it creates a hole that doesn't need to be created. If it comes off as me "freaking out" it has moreso to do with the thought of a guy like Quentin Demps or Shiloh Keo starting, or moving someone like Roc Carmichael to S, or relying on a rookie to start in a secondary that took massive steps backwards last season - for all of his non-playmaking ability, Quin was perhaps the most consistent player in the secondary last year, even with his responsibilities changing moreso than the likes of Jackson, Manning or Joseph.

All in all, I agree with your premise - Quin holds more value to the Texans vs the other 31 teams in the NFL, and the market is actually saturated with players who play a similar role and could be construed as a "better" player. But, why rock the boat and create a new hole, when this team has holes that need to be considered outside of Quin? Sure, Quin is out and Amerson is in with a top 64 pick. That's fine, but which spot do we sacrifice? That WR that we need opposite AJ, or that NT that we need to replace Shaun Cody? One of those two will have to be given up on (or we can hope that Loni Fangupo or LesStar Jean suddenly "get it" which is...well, not gonna happen).

Don't break the bank for the guy, yes. But if someone DOES break the bank for the guy (which is feasable, as the market has a new component that will lead to excessive money to be paid out to marginal talent) then...what do we do? We have an answer if Mario Williams walked away (which he did) we have an answer if Mike Breisel walked away (which he did) we have an "answer" when Joel Dreessen walked away (which he did, and given how our RZ offense completely faltered without Joel D, I'd hesitate to call it an answer) we have an answer if Jason Allen Walks away (which he did) we have an answer if/when Brice McCain walks away, and we have an answer if/when Connor Barwin walks away.

What's our answer if Quin walks away?
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kenney


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heard through the grapevine that Kenny Vaccaro got moved to the top of our draft board when he ran that 4.7 40.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenney wrote:
Heard through the grapevine that Kenny Vaccaro got moved to the top of our draft board when he ran that 4.7 40.


Not really sure why that would put him at the top of the draft board. I hope he will be gone by the time the Texans pick anyway. Not a fan of him.
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