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canyon1


Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a BIG 12 wideout that does interest me and that's Boyce from TCU. I dont know why he just seams like a future animal in the making
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dsorc


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grasspike wrote:
dsorc wrote:
I am really liking Sio Moore as a possible ILB for us. His biggest question mark was his weight as he was listed at 230ish at Connecticut. He showed up at the combine at 245, ran a 4.62 with a 10'7" broad jump and 29 reps. He was also productive in college as a OLB in 4-3 and 3-4 looks with 7.5 sacks, 15.5 TFL , and 11 passes deflected. And oh yeah, he has experience covering TEs and slot WR's one-on-one.


I like Sio Moore, but he'll be drafted as a 4-3 WLB. He's a playmaker in the Cato June mold.

The guy I'd like to see us draft right now is Bostic.

Moore is the same size as Minter so he should be able to handle all 4-3 LB positions as well as 3-4ILB. UConn listed him at 6-2 229lbs which created the perception that he was a WLB only. Bostic is another interesting option though maybe 1 round later.
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amazingandre


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Quote:
Credit on the 1st round billing (which isn't set in stone, as Tavon Austin is closing in on a sub 4.2, DeAndre Hopkins is living up to expectations, Terrance Williams is living up to expectations, Patterson has folks drooling as long as he ain't talking, Justin Hunter is killing EVERYTHING in sight, Robert Woods is bigger and faster than expected, Da'Rick Rogers is getting folks to forget he's a bit of a malcontent...and look for someone to overvalue the hell out of Marcus Davis and Mark Harrison, as 6+ 230+ WRs with 4.4 time seem to get drafted well ahead of where they should be drafted) but...I wasn't talking about Swope in the 1st being out of the question, it's that he just whipped through the 40 in a time that folks were expecting from other players.


Wait a minute. Are you saying there may be interest in 5' 8" Big 12 receiver like Tavon Austin in the 1st round? Are we now revising last year's stand against sub 6' 1" WRs in light of yet another season of proof that it's time to ditch this outmoded requirement (perhaps you were watching as we got beaten by teams featuring the 5' 10" and below likes of Randall Cobb, T.Y. Hilton, Welker, and even Jarius Wright this year).

Not to change the subject, but since I mentioned conference strength again, might as well twist the knife by lamenting further if only we had a Big 10 NFL prototype like Nick Toon or Marvin McNutt or rode the post-combine wave that pushed Illinois AJ Jenkins from the 5th to the 1st round. Yep it's pretty clear if those Big 10 schools (or Big 10-ish Notre Dame with Floyd) just threw the ball more we'd have seen why picking Posey & Martin made more sense than believing the inflated numbers of Big 12 guys like Blackmon, Kendall Wright, and Broyles. Strange there was no mention of Marquise Goodwin running even faster than Austin here? TCU's Josh Boyce? OU's Kenny Stills? Kind of reminds me of Baylor afterthought Josh Gordon still doing better than most of the rest of the rookie class. Gee, I thought Big 12 secondaries were just so bad they made these Big 12 receivers look good (and we get 3/4 credit for Swope too). Can't wait for the "but Terrance Williams has small hands" take as if the 97 catches for 1832 yards last year were because Nick Florence (who didn't even bother trying to make an NFL team) threw such perfect balls they just stuck to TW's baby doll hands.

Please, please, please continue to hype Cordarrelle Patterson projecting to be the next coming of Julio Jones so PROVEN players like Williams, Swope, Stills and others that actually played well against teams a tad better than 3 win Sun Belt powerhouse Troy or winless SEC joke Kentucky drop to us. Yep Keenan Allen would have been GREAT if not for his crummy QB (Cal's Marvin Jones sure tore it up once freed from crappy Cal QB play huh?). I LOVE how the offseason hype train drives straight into looney land when it comes to what players may become as pro's, while ignoring what players actually did on tape in football games (beyond a 10 play highlight package on youtube). Guess what, on paper, Mike Tyson rarely had an advantage over an opponent in the 1980's (too short, poor reach), but when you put on the tape there wasn't a fighter he faced that stood a chance against him.


Patterson will be the best wr from this class, Marvin Jones will be the best from his class, he was very good at the end of the season once given a chance......

Wright sucks and I will stand by my saying that small wide outs are not what WE NEED in this system. Never have been, never will be. They are not matches for what we like to do and you pounding words onto a computer screen won't change that, no matter how hard you try.
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Grasspike


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dsorc wrote:
Grasspike wrote:
dsorc wrote:
I am really liking Sio Moore as a possible ILB for us. His biggest question mark was his weight as he was listed at 230ish at Connecticut. He showed up at the combine at 245, ran a 4.62 with a 10'7" broad jump and 29 reps. He was also productive in college as a OLB in 4-3 and 3-4 looks with 7.5 sacks, 15.5 TFL , and 11 passes deflected. And oh yeah, he has experience covering TEs and slot WR's one-on-one.


I like Sio Moore, but he'll be drafted as a 4-3 WLB. He's a playmaker in the Cato June mold.

The guy I'd like to see us draft right now is Bostic.

Moore is the same size as Minter so he should be able to handle all 4-3 LB positions as well as 3-4ILB. UConn listed him at 6-2 229lbs which created the perception that he was a WLB only. Bostic is another interesting option though maybe 1 round later.


I'm not saying he can't be a 3-4 ILB, I'm just saying he'll be more valuable as a 4-3 WLB, and teams will draft accordingly.
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treece300e


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grasspike wrote:
dsorc wrote:
Grasspike wrote:
dsorc wrote:
I am really liking Sio Moore as a possible ILB for us. His biggest question mark was his weight as he was listed at 230ish at Connecticut. He showed up at the combine at 245, ran a 4.62 with a 10'7" broad jump and 29 reps. He was also productive in college as a OLB in 4-3 and 3-4 looks with 7.5 sacks, 15.5 TFL , and 11 passes deflected. And oh yeah, he has experience covering TEs and slot WR's one-on-one.


I like Sio Moore, but he'll be drafted as a 4-3 WLB. He's a playmaker in the Cato June mold.

The guy I'd like to see us draft right now is Bostic.

Moore is the same size as Minter so he should be able to handle all 4-3 LB positions as well as 3-4ILB. UConn listed him at 6-2 229lbs which created the perception that he was a WLB only. Bostic is another interesting option though maybe 1 round later.


I'm not saying he can't be a 3-4 ILB, I'm just saying he'll be more valuable as a 4-3 WLB, and teams will draft accordingly.


I also really like Sio Moore. He's quick and covers a lot of ground. I haven't seen his coverage skills, but the speed gives me some hope that it would be a possibility at least.

I was pretty impressed with the overall speed of the WR class this year. I agree with those saying that college production should account for more than their freak athleticism and "potential". Unfortunately for some, potential withers once they get that big fat check. If they didn't care enough to be productive in college, there is an increased chance they won't care enough to be productive in the pros. That's not always true, and sometimes it's the inverse, but I'm more comfortable taking someone that has slightly worse triangle numbers, and a lot more college production. I know what Swope did in college, and while he may not have the prototypical size our FO and coaches desire, his tape doesn't give much reason why he won't be a good receiver in the NFL, and now his numbers back that up. I feel the same for Hopkins, assuming he learns how to block.

One player that I like, and it's more of a gut feeling than anything tangible, is Chris Harper from K-State. I think he was a little underutilized in their wonky offense. He ran faster than I thought he would. I don't know what it is about him, but I like him. Though, I'm not necessarily advocating the Texans drafting him.
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kenney


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
Was 229 Porter's playing weight too, or did he lose weight?


That's him about where he was playing. Bulked up to about 240 last spring (I was stunned at how big he looked), but had slimmed down by the end of the season. I was a little surprised he didn't try and get back to 240-ish for the Senior Bowl/Combine.

He's always played on the light side, though.
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kenney


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treece300e wrote:
One player that I like, and it's more of a gut feeling than anything tangible, is Chris Harper from K-State. I think he was a little underutilized in their wonky offense. He ran faster than I thought he would. I don't know what it is about him, but I like him. Though, I'm not necessarily advocating the Texans drafting him.


Chris Harper is someone I've had pegged as a Texans draftee since the Senior Bowl. He just seems like the sort of player this staff would love; relatively low-end athleticism but a true effort, "do the little things" sort of guy.
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lumberjackchris


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NC State's David Amerson just ran a 4.38 40 unofficially, but he really help his stock out with that.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Sorry I wasn't clearer. Was merely busting your rocks over last year's vehement stand against sub 6 foot WRs. My recollection was that this was a much broader value objection than just for the Texans, but if you say it was just about the Texans, I'll trust your memory of your take.

Given the contined back and forth we've had in this subject, I can imagine that it's crossed back and forth between value to the Texans, value to the league as a whole, etc. You and I have danced around this for a while, it's easy to see lines get crossed.

I'll state it like this: Yeah, there are some teams that can see value in smaller WRs. Heck, the entire fleet of WRs that Kurt Warner was throwing to in the GSOT days were all 5' 11" or slightly 6" guys (think Torry Holt was 6", I'll have to factcheck that one). For teams that utilize this sort of profile, there is value to the Kendall Wright/Tavon Austin/TY Hilton type players. You'll see coaching staffs play to this as well, with a lot of three step drop and release routes, really playing up on passes < 10 yards downfield. That gives guys the chance to catch a ball in space and use their small frame and speed to make a level of defenders miss and explode for bigger yardage.

The Texans offense? There are some shades to that, I can agree. I don't have film breakdown (and anyone who claims to have "watched the film" is a liar) but I would wager the Texans take a more intermediate approach to passing - so much of our passing game is predicated on play action, on five step drops where routes develop beyond 10 yards. When the passing attack is working as we expect it to work (not the abberation we saw last season) we see the likes of AJ, Jacoby, KW downfield past the sticks and in a space that is too far to a LB to trail backwards for, but a spot where DBs have to hard charge on to make a play. It's your prototypical zone buster - you run the routes and make the throws into that hole where the LBs are positioned too shallow, and the DBs are positioned too deep. In this philosophy of passing, having a small WR is a bit of a hinderance - yes, they can get to the spot just fine, but due to a smaller size, smaller arm length, limited height, etc - the throw has to be pinpoint accurate, there's not much room to overthrow a guy. The bigger WR you have running these routes, the bigger of a catch radius they should have to make a play of a pass.

Quote:
I still disagree, as Rod Smith was barely 6 feet, but the crux of my argument is that this whole "Texans system requires a 6' 3" blocking WR like Kevin Walter" is a complete bs rationalization that will be quickly disproven the second we actually field a decent WR option besides AJ.

The thing with Rod Smith is - guy was a UDFA (or, a 12th round pick...back when the draft was 12 rounds long). You have someone like Smith THAT late, you can roll the die on someone who doesn't fit the mold of what you're looking for in your system. If he pans out, that's butter on the bread, value added bouns. If he doesn't, no harm no foul. You'll also see in the "Denver" model that when early picks are allocated to the position, they did tend to use it on guys who fit the mold - 6' 3" 210 Ashley Leile, 6' 4" 220 Marcus Nash, 6' 2" 200 Darius Watts - big bodied targets taken in the first 64/96 picks of the draft.

Later on in the draft? Sure, take a few gambles on some smaller guys who could pan out, guys who dropped because of size. The Texans doubled down in the 2nd round, got some picks, and with that house money they picked up Keshawn Martin - a good selection, one that was more predicated on the loss of Jacoby Jones as a return man, but I digress. There is a time and a place for these sorts of players within the confines of this offense, and top 32 picks shouldn't be it.

Here, let me try a different angle: Last season, the passing game did suffer. Where was that issue the most noticable at? The red zone. The Texans couldn't find a way to crack the goal line, unless it was some 2 yard run by Arian Foster or something. The Texans need to find a way to throw the ball into the end zone, not just hope to get within three yards and have Foster push his way into paydirt.

Now, here's the 2012 leaderboard for TD receptions:

1. James Jones (GB): 14
2. Eric Decker (DEN): 13
3. Dez Bryant (DAL): 12
4. Brandon Marshall (CHI): 11
5. AJ Green (CIN): 11
6. Rob Gronkowski (NE): 11
7. Demaryius Thomas (DEN): 10
8. Victor Cruz (NYG): 10
9. Marquis Colston (NO): 10
10. Julio Jones (ATL): 10

Notice a trend here? Save for Cruz, most of these guys hit the measuring tape at above 6'. Furthermore (and something interesting I gleaned from this) is that all of them have a counterpart who poses JUST as much of a threat to score, who also falls into that 6' category. James Jones has Jordy Nelson, Decker has Thomas, Bryant has Miles Austin, Marshall has Ashton Jeffrey, AJ Green had Mo Sanu, Gronk has Hernandez, Cruz has Hakeem Nicks, Colston has Jimmy Graham, Jones has Roddy White. So, in this exercise...the obvious is that a 6'+ WR finds the end zone, a lot. Moreso than their sub 6' WR counterparts (Randall Cobb leads all sub 6' WRs with 8 TDs, good for 17th on the list). The added observation is that there is ANOTHER 6' WR on that team, one that is rather prolific in their own right and can dictate some form of coverage in the RZ towards them.

With the NFL being a copycat league, the trend has been identified - you might have a 6' 3" 230 LB monster in Andre Johnson, a 6" 3" 225 LB monster in Larry Fitzgerald or a 6' 5" 240 LB monster in Calvin Johnson. However, these three will always have issues in the RZ, simply because teams know that when you're inside the 20, you can focus coverage on them and disrupt any plans (as the trios combined 13 TDs this season points to). At the LEAST, you need to find a counterpart to either enhance their production, or get such favorable matchups that the counterparts gets into the end zone on a regular basis.

Quote:
If our "system" can't use a guy like Tavon Austin or Kendall Wright, then our system inherently fields inferior players and needs to be scrapped immediately.

I'm not saying that our system can't use a guy like that, I'm saying our system needs to crawl before it walks. You need to take on the obvious elephant in the room before you start to task yourself with bigger fish, that being bringing in a complimentary piece such as an Austin or Wright. Let's go back to the "little big man" himself, Randall Cobb. Yes, he leads the pack amongst the < 6' crowd, but...as stated earlier, look at his supporting cast in Jordy Nelson and James Jones. You can get good production when you have a guy like Cobb...or you can get GREAT production from Cobb when you flank him with two outstanding threats in Nelson and Jones.

Someone like Austin in Houston, or Wright in Houston - eh, you might get some solid production from them as is, but...when you pair them with two guys who can get attention, the numbers grow and the impact is greater. Austin might be good in Houston, but in Denver? Goodness, the production will be mind blowing.

Quote:
It doesn't as evidenced by us picking 5' 10" Keshawn Martin in the 4th, the Texans just let the same bias as you presented have them draft Devier Posey over better but shorter players like Hilton, Givens, or Wright. So you think they should compound the mistake by again not considering players at WR based upon height?

You don't compound the mistake THIS draft season, where there are 6' + guys who can give you what I outlined above - guys with size, who are impact players. 1a and 1b are Williams and Hopkins, 2a and 2b are Hunter and Woods. Experienced, stat hounds in college, great size...you can have the best of both worlds, guys who are just as impressive as Austin.

Quote:
When I said I was switching subjects, I meant I was switching my target to those with other takes (like conference) in the great Kendall Wright debates of 2012. Anti-Baylor crowd was using everything in their disposal last year and I'm not going to be robbed of the opportunity to use this against the hordes this year, especially with Terrence Williams again presenting a very attractive option from my alma mater.

This is why I thought you and I were gonna be friends this silly season, as I have Williams as my 1a. This isn't a Kendall Wright guy, he's got size and speed (remember, I didn't start falling off the Wright train until after he completely fizzled out with his timed speed - as Austin showed, a small guy gets his name known when he's blazing a 4.2 or something like that). I am all about Williams (and I was slightly interested in Josh Morgan, outside of his off-the-field issues). If he's not there, Hopkins. If either aren't there, you move down and angle yourself for Hunter (who is the other side of the spectrum in regards to criticism - too tall, given his weight) or Woods, who is falling because of one bad season, and was widely considered to be a top 5 prospect this time last year.
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I wanna be a mod.

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Last edited by EliteTexan80 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2013/02/my-top-25-draft-prospects-and-a-look-at-wr-options-for-the-texans/

Interesting look at some of the WR options for the Texans.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckwild wrote:
http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2013/02/my-top-25-draft-prospects-and-a-look-at-wr-options-for-the-texans/

Interesting look at some of the WR options for the Texans.


Unrelated side note: Did anyone hear 610's Nick Wright just BLAST Lance Z a few days ago? Called him out over watching "tape" of these prospects.

"Bro, youtube doesn't count as tape..."
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
buckwild wrote:
http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2013/02/my-top-25-draft-prospects-and-a-look-at-wr-options-for-the-texans/

Interesting look at some of the WR options for the Texans.


Unrelated side note: Did anyone hear 610's Nick Wright just BLAST Lance Z a few days ago? Called him out over watching "tape" of these prospects.

"Bro, youtube doesn't count as tape..."


He isn't a scout so doesn't have access to actual game film, but knows what to look for in draft prospects.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckwild wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
buckwild wrote:
http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2013/02/my-top-25-draft-prospects-and-a-look-at-wr-options-for-the-texans/

Interesting look at some of the WR options for the Texans.


Unrelated side note: Did anyone hear 610's Nick Wright just BLAST Lance Z a few days ago? Called him out over watching "tape" of these prospects.

"Bro, youtube doesn't count as tape..."


He isn't a scout so doesn't have access to actual game film, but knows what to look for in draft prospects.


I'm indifferent to it all...Nick Wright was just looking to ruffle some feathers. Wink
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to bust his balls! I'm old school and remember KTRH Sports talk with the late great Joel Buschbaum as a draft expert. John McClain would be on there on Mondays after Oilers games. This is how long ago this was John McClain onlt had 1 chin. LOL
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kenney


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
buckwild wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
buckwild wrote:
http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2013/02/my-top-25-draft-prospects-and-a-look-at-wr-options-for-the-texans/

Interesting look at some of the WR options for the Texans.


Unrelated side note: Did anyone hear 610's Nick Wright just BLAST Lance Z a few days ago? Called him out over watching "tape" of these prospects.

"Bro, youtube doesn't count as tape..."


He isn't a scout so doesn't have access to actual game film, but knows what to look for in draft prospects.


I'm indifferent to it all...Nick Wright was just looking to ruffle some feathers. Wink


Lance Z is a giant toolbag. Thinks he's the greatest thing on radio because his dad's a coach. If you call him out, he turns into a hilariously petty wannabe bully.
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