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Stats show WCO was never the best route for Weeden
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 6877
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
bruceb wrote:
As I have said before, Weeden was a bad pick. Period.

What Shurmur did with him made the pick worse.

But putting him in a shotgun is not going to turn him into a QB who will lead us to the promised land, not in the NFL.

Still a bad pick. Period.

What would you do with him if it was up to you? Cut him?


See how he stacks up in a real competition with McCoy and the "player to be named later" obtained through the draft, a trade or FA.

As I have said, I think Weeden's biggest problems are incurably between his ears, and that he will sink to the occasion.

If things reach that point, I would trade him for value (4th or better) or let him sit and watch for a year as the 2nd or 3rd QB and see if he can learn.
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StewieRules


Joined: 17 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And even then he checked down to receivers or backs short of the 1st down marker, often wasting opportunities to receivers coming open on longer routes.

He sees open targets and even then misses them way more often than not on longer, mostly vertical routes.

He doesn't see space targets coming open are headed to.


Frankly, how do you know what he sees? Did he admit this to you when you were working with him on all the steps needed to be a freshman phenom in the NFL? Gordon emerged as a legitimate deep threat because Weeden misses long throws? He posted in his 2nd game a 114.9 rating, had 3 other games with 90+ QB ratings and one more close (88.7) with 2 rookie WR's, a 2nd year WR who had for most of the year drop issues and a rookie RB playing with broken ribs. He also had more 300 yard games after four starts than McCoy did in nearly two years.

Sorry, but the quoted opinion is little more than typical fan dislike disguised as "analysis" ... and it's neither very well disguised or analytical at that.
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StewieRules wrote:
Quote:
And even then he checked down to receivers or backs short of the 1st down marker, often wasting opportunities to receivers coming open on longer routes.

He sees open targets and even then misses them way more often than not on longer, mostly vertical routes.

He doesn't see space targets coming open are headed to.


Frankly, how do you know what he sees? Did he admit this to you when you were working with him on all the steps needed to be a freshman phenom in the NFL? Gordon emerged as a legitimate deep threat because Weeden misses long throws? He posted in his 2nd game a 114.9 rating, had 3 other games with 90+ QB ratings and one more close (88.7) with 2 rookie WR's, a 2nd year WR who had for most of the year drop issues and a rookie RB playing with broken ribs. He also had more 300 yard games after four starts than McCoy did in nearly two years.

Sorry, but the quoted opinion is little more than typical fan dislike disguised as "analysis" ... and it's neither very well disguised or analytical at that.


Not just my observations...made regularly by commentators during games, especially when receivers wide open downfield and Weeden throwing checkdowns for little/no/inadequate gain.

Weeden made a statement early on that to the effect he aims for the emblem (or something) on a receiver's shoulder. The only way he can do that is if he sees the player open vs. space in which a player is going to be.

And save the meaningless stats...how many of the yards were in catch-up or garbage time? How many of those games did we win?
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Fullback40


Joined: 30 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stats...but nothing surprising. Weeden is terrible under center. He rushes when he's back there and doesn't look comfortable.


We should run some pistol next season as well. Not to run Weeden obviously, but to keep Richardson going forward towards the LOS on his carries as opposed to laterally in the shotgun. Keeps T-Rich an I-Form type runner, while allowing Weeden to be in the Gun.
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StewieRules


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And save the meaningless stats...how many of the yards were in catch-up or garbage time? How many of those games did we win?


Ah, so stats only mean something when it's your point to prove. TDs, yards thrown and QB ratings don't matter, except when you want them to?

And I LOVE this "garbage time" idea - seen it before too - as if players aren't supposed to make plays because the game may seem out of reach? So the better plan is to think "OK, Benjamin's got his man beat on the long post but we're down by 2 TDS with only 2 min to go ....no need to throw it then..."

That makes a lot of sense, as does the uber-literal interpretation of what he aims for when he targets an open wideout. So he'd never throw to a timed spot?

Ridiculous.

You personally don't like the guy, say you don't - but don't cherry pick to create the illusion of impartial observation. And last time I checked, it is a team game - so loses, as well as wins, have many factors. Weeden being a rookie in a system not suited for him was one of them ... but there are numerous others as well. THAT is why we don't have many wins.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StewieRules wrote:
Quote:
And save the meaningless stats...how many of the yards were in catch-up or garbage time? How many of those games did we win?


Ah, so stats only mean something when it's your point to prove. TDs, yards thrown and QB ratings don't matter, except when you want them to?

And I LOVE this "garbage time" idea - seen it before too - as if players aren't supposed to make plays because the game may seem out of reach? So the better plan is to think "OK, Benjamin's got his man beat on the long post but we're down by 2 TDS with only 2 min to go ....no need to throw it then..."

That makes a lot of sense, as does the uber-literal interpretation of what he aims for when he targets an open wideout. So he'd never throw to a timed spot?

Ridiculous.

You personally don't like the guy, say you don't - but don't cherry pick to create the illusion of impartial observation. And last time I checked, it is a team game - so loses, as well as wins, have many factors. Weeden being a rookie in a system not suited for him was one of them ... but there are numerous others as well. THAT is why we don't have many wins.


I don't like the player at all and haven't since he was picked.

But his lack of field vision is common knowledge, a given, to anyone who has watched him play:

"Weeden, who turns 30 in October, has the big arm to run coordinator Norv Turner's downfield attack, but needs better accuracy and field vision."

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/02/breaking_down_the_cleveland_br.html
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StewieRules


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? A rookie in an infinitely more complicated (some would say overly so at least with Holmgren's version) offensive system along with two rookie WRs struggling at times with "field vision"...... how does THAT happen ....
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DaWg_LB.


Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 4609
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StewieRules wrote:
Quote:
And save the meaningless stats...how many of the yards were in catch-up or garbage time? How many of those games did we win?


Ah, so stats only mean something when it's your point to prove. TDs, yards thrown and QB ratings don't matter, except when you want them to?

And I LOVE this "garbage time" idea - seen it before too - as if players aren't supposed to make plays because the game may seem out of reach? So the better plan is to think "OK, Benjamin's got his man beat on the long post but we're down by 2 TDS with only 2 min to go ....no need to throw it then..."

That makes a lot of sense, as does the uber-literal interpretation of what he aims for when he targets an open wideout. So he'd never throw to a timed spot?

Ridiculous.

You personally don't like the guy, say you don't - but don't cherry pick to create the illusion of impartial observation. And last time I checked, it is a team game - so loses, as well as wins, have many factors. Weeden being a rookie in a system not suited for him was one of them ... but there are numerous others as well. THAT is why we don't have many wins.


I will Stewie on this one......sounds like a lot of hate....folks are going nuts because our rookie QB didnt light the leauge on FIRE this year.....well I got news for some folks....WEEDEN IS ROOKIE QB....his Numbers were comporable to luck...except he was responsible for 7 LESS turnovers than Luck was...add in the fact that luck started off with not only a vet team, but what many would argue as better coaching...as well as a HOF WR AND the top two TE's in the draft.....vs B.Weed who had Shurmer as his coach (fitting Weeden into trying play the WCO....stupid) and staring on an offense that started 7 other (Little, Gordon, Mack, Schwartz, Pinkston, Mericic and Richardson) players with less than 3 years experience (and 4 rookies).....Luck MARGINALLY better numbers (better win-loss true...then I say strength of schedule couple with playing in a [inappropriate/removed] (refering to a Domestic House Cat here) Division...then you argue another point....LOL...then we go round and around)....Russel Wilson...ok put B.Weed on a playoff team with a top 5 rusher and top 3 D.....RG3 has inflated numbers from running a Gimmeky offense....which also got him his 2nd major reconstruct (on his knee) in 3 years and featured throwing a bunch of screens and shovel passes...

I'm just saying...put Weeden in thoes situations and see what happens and see what happens.....start RGIII on an offense with 7 other 2nd year starters.....Luck did not perform as well as some people would have you believe....
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JCBrowns21


Joined: 16 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
JCBrowns21 wrote:
Usually when we used the shotgun it was 3rd &long or late in the game. Defenses were a little softer and there were more receiving options in 3 and 4 receiver sets. I wouldn't read too much into this.


That is what he ran in college opposed to Shurmur's offense, which is the point of the discussion.


No, the thread talks about the WCO, but the stat is about being under center. They're not the same thing. My point was we use the shotgun on 3rd down and late in the game so I would expect almost EVERY QB's numbers to be better in Shotgun than under center. That's part of the reason it is so prevalent in college.

The stats shown don't tell me anything about the WCO. Many teams run the WCO and use heavy shotgun, Green Bay is one example. My understanding is the WCO is more about timing and precision, not being under center.
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StewieRules wrote:
Really? A rookie in an infinitely more complicated (some would say overly so at least with Holmgren's version) offensive system along with two rookie WRs struggling at times with "field vision"...... how does THAT happen ....


Apparently some think the guy never completed a pass, or broke several Browns rookie QB records.

He missed open receivers about once a game while throwing 517 passes for 3385 yards, and he has bad "field vision"? Really? How the hell did he do that then?

Could it be that he, like any rookie, needs to improve his field vision (as well as other QB skills)..but it wasn't really that bad to begin with?
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roger murdock


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make all the excuses you want for Weeden, he was still outplayed by basically every single successful recent rookie Qb, all of which were 7 to 9 years younger than him, and there is no worse starting Qb in the league that is older than him.
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roger murdock


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make all the excuses you want for Weeden, he was still outplayed by basically every single successful recent rookie Qb, all of which were 7 to 9 years younger than him, and there is no worse starting Qb in the league that is older than him.
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roger murdock wrote:
Make all the excuses you want for Weeden, he was still outplayed by basically every single successful recent rookie Qb, all of which were 7 to 9 years younger than him, and there is no worse starting Qb in the league that is older than him.


What excuse did anyone make for Weeden?

I mean, other than the excuses a few make for their biased opinions, like "stats don't mean anything", "situations don't mean anything", and “broken rookie records don't mean anything".

So who was making excuses again?
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
roger murdock wrote:
Make all the excuses you want for Weeden, he was still outplayed by basically every single successful recent rookie Qb, all of which were 7 to 9 years younger than him, and there is no worse starting Qb in the league that is older than him.


What excuse did anyone make for Weeden?

I mean, other than the excuses a few make for their biased opinions, like "stats don't mean anything", "situations don't mean anything", and “broken rookie records don't mean anything".

So who was making excuses again?


Everybody and their brother except a few posters in this forum see major flaws in his game.

He recently admitted he didn't provide enough leadership last year.

His oh so impressive stats are like those of a guy who hits 20 Hrs in baseball, whiffs 200 times and ends up with about 70 RBI.

Big deal.

We didn't win games with, and sometimes lost them because of, Weeden.

Let's see who they bring in and let the competition begin.
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fatpig


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shurmur's WCO didn't benefit anyone on offense. Weeden had to force short passes through tight windows. he also didn't get much help from the run game as Trent was injured and underwhelming for most of the games.

Weeden should have thrown out of the shotgun more. he shouldn't have been under center on a play-action short crossing route on third down.
i'm not saying Weeden impressed the hell out of me but i'm not ready to give up on him. Chud/Norv's offense will cater to his strengths - down field passing.

on a side note... i'm relieved to see the Eagles signed Vick. that whole Lombardi/Banner/Vick to cleveland conspiracy had me worried there
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