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Stats show WCO was never the best route for Weeden
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Stats show WCO was never the best route for Weeden Reply with quote

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2013/02/statistics_show_west_coast_was.html

Pluto posted about this...

At OkSt, Weeden took the pass out of shotgun nearly every pass. ProFootballFocus said 43percent of Weeden's passes this year were from the shotgon.

Pluto starts going into other facts...

#1 NFL QBs threw out of the shotgun at an avg of 66% of the time
#2 Out of the 39 QBs examined by ProFootballfocus, only Houston's Matt Schaub (39%) threw a lower % of passes from the shotgun than Weeden
#3 Weeden was more effective from the shotgun. From Shotgun, Weeden had a QB rating of 79.1 with 8TDs and 7INTs, where under center it was 67.7 with 6TDs and 10INTs
#4 Weeden threw 73more passes from under center than from Shotgun

Weeden in shotgun: 132-222, 8 TDs, 7 ints., 79.1 rating
Weeden under center: 165-295, 6 TDs, 10 ints., 67.7 rating

Now some stats that could be promising for Weeden and Chud...

#1 In Chud's offense with the Panthers, New threw 79% of his passes from the gun 4th highest. (could be higher if he didnt pull the ball down and run)
#2 Turner and Rivers threw it 77% out of the gun which was 8th highest in the NFL


OK WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN???

Pluto was saying Weeden's strength is standing in the pocket and throwing deep but in the WCO it stresses being under the center and making the quick passes. So right there that is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Also spending so much time under center and throwing quick routes could be the reason he had so many passes knocked down, since he had to set up closer to the defensive linemen and with him throwing so quick lineman know they cant get to him in time to sack him so they throw there hands up. I would love to see all of Weeden's passes that were knocked down and see if they were from the gun or under center to see the real ratio

Its like what caused the Browns to draft Weeden in the first place? It was the work he did at OkSt and how good of a QB he was in college. So why not adapt him to the NFL by putting him in an offense scheme he is familiar at
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to know what every QB's rating is from shotgun as opposed to under center. Statistics really just show that Weeden was bad from the shotgun and even worse under center, I don't find that promising or a reason for optimism at all.
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StewieRules


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see it that way at all - you don't need double digit + improvement for it to not mean improvement. Weeden had some good games, some very good games; I tend to think his progress was there, it just wasn't abnormal, as RG3's was.

Frankly, and I've posted this in the past, he was a bad fit in the WCO - and our WCO was fairly ancient to boot. When I hear coaches say "Oh sure but now he has to get under center most of the time and do a 2.5 mile long play call cause that's the NFL ...blah blah blah .." it makes my butt twitch. These are the same guys who railed against the spread - until NE used it to crush everyone, and its the same mentality that criticized the pistol as a college gimmick until SF showed how effective it could be. They're loathe to try anything new until someone else does and it works and then it's all the rage.

In our case, we should tailor our new vertical game to mimic the no-huddle fast attack Weeden ran so successfully at Ok St - if that means shot gun 80% of the time then so be it. It seems to me that the great coaches all have their philosophies, but they tailor them to suit their talent - Parcells and the wildcat to mask having no real QB, Belichick and the spread for Brady since they had no real RB, SF and the pistol for Kaepernick's unique skill set, etc. Weeden has talent, let's hope Chud & Co design an offense for him, not just around him.
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cattleman78


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Pluto brought up an interesting point on Weeden. His q.b. rating was 11 points higher out of the shotgun. If he used the shotgun 66% like the league average his rating would probably been 7-8 points higher.

Also interesting Pluto said he hears Brown's are looking at off. linemen because they don't know about Pinkston being able to play. I.M.O. Cousins needs to go also. Don't be surprised if we get a guard and an o.t. this off season. The guard might be a starter and the o.t. a solid back up.
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mtmmike


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

personally norv doesnt come here if he feels weeden isnt right
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buno67


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
I'd like to know what every QB's rating is from shotgun as opposed to under center. Statistics really just show that Weeden was bad from the shotgun and even worse under center, I don't find that promising or a reason for optimism at all.


ok whats one thing QBs need to be successful...confidence and rhythm. When you see Tom Brady, Peyon Manning, Drew Brees, and hell Russel Wilson tearing it up at times this season...what were two things you saw from them. Confidence that no matter what happens they were going to come out on top and having a rhyme in the game and their offense that kept them going at a pace. You rarely saw a lot of opposing teams dictate the games with those QBs.

With Weeden, the WCO, and Shurmur is you never saw Weeden having consistent confidence in himself. Getting horrible play calls, jumping back and fourth from undercenter to shotgun, having passes knocked down, WRs dropping passes, and etc killed some confidence. With all that happening you never saw Weeden or the offense getting into a rhythm. They were also off sync at one point or another.

I think having Weeden in the shotgun more, say like 80% of his pass playes. Its going to lead to a more confident Weeden. Why? Because thats why he knows best. He doesnt have to worry about the proper drop back sets and doesnt have to worry about making a quick read. In the shotgun he already knows the proper steps because of the plays he took out of shotgun at OkSt. Being in Shotgun he has a better view of the entire defense, allowing him to break the defense down better as a pre snap read. Now the play is snapped, he makes his read quicker off of what he saw pre-snap allows him to make a quicker decision and a quicker pass. Quick pass means less rush on the QB and lesser reactions by the defenders. Possibly leading to higher success on the play.

So now Weeden is more confident in himself mental prolly leads more confidence in his ability, meaning he can throw better passes. Weeden is a accurate QB, we saw that in college. The one thing we saw different b/w him at OkSt and the Browns wasnt pure physical ability like throwing the ball but the big difference was his mental ability. He looked more mentally stable at OkSt than with the Browns last year. I think not having his confidence threw off some of his mechanics. I feel like him being set in a more comfortable offensive scheme allows him to be more confident in his mental abilities. Which would lead to more confidence in his arm, which would lead to accurate passes on a consistent bases. Returning to his form of being a consistent passer will give the WRs more catchable passes. Now the Wrs are catching the ball more and better leads to having more confident WRs. So right now the Browns have a QB who is confident in himself, which leads to the WRs becoming confident in their own ability. That right there would lead to a better passing attack. A better passing attack opens up the running game.

Im just saying you might not see it but having Weeden passing out of the gun for 75% of his plays could really have a trickle down affect on the entire offense.
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bungleodeon


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was his first year having to deal with being under center, that being said, if he can't learn to play under center he has no future in the NFL, so let's hope those numbers improve (both under center and in the shotgun).
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TeHDruiD


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Opponents often talked about how they knew what was coming just based off of the formation. In the shotgun we likely were running more vertical routes, whereas under center typically it was the shorter stuff they were squating on. He had lapses in judgement, but it doesn't help when defenders see him under center and know a quick route is coming and can sit on it. I feel like Shurmurs system did no one any favors, particularly the QB who had to make miracle throws the majority of the time because the defense knew what was coming

Shurmur had no creativity, he was too embedded in the old school WCO and never adapted to todays game like Reid and McCarthy have been able to do. It's hard for a QB to have success in that situation imo. This is why I'm excited for Chud, he's innovative and creative and that will allow his players to be in positions to succeed and not be stuck with there feet in the mud
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StewieRules


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This ^^^^^
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I have said before, Weeden was a bad pick. Period.

What Shurmur did with him made the pick worse.

But putting him in a shotgun is not going to turn him into a QB who will lead us to the promised land, not in the NFL.

Still a bad pick. Period.
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
As I have said before, Weeden was a bad pick. Period.

What Shurmur did with him made the pick worse.

But putting him in a shotgun is not going to turn him into a QB who will lead us to the promised land, not in the NFL.

Still a bad pick. Period.

What would you do with him if it was up to you? Cut him?
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Dawgpoun8017


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
bruceb wrote:
As I have said before, Weeden was a bad pick. Period.

What Shurmur did with him made the pick worse.

But putting him in a shotgun is not going to turn him into a QB who will lead us to the promised land, not in the NFL.

Still a bad pick. Period.

What would you do with him if it was up to you? Cut him?


prlly burn him at the stake lol
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JCBrowns21


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually when we used the shotgun it was 3rd &long or late in the game. Defenses were a little softer and there were more receiving options in 3 and 4 receiver sets. I wouldn't read too much into this.
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCBrowns21 wrote:
Usually when we used the shotgun it was 3rd &long or late in the game. Defenses were a little softer and there were more receiving options in 3 and 4 receiver sets. I wouldn't read too much into this.


That is what he ran in college opposed to Shurmur's offense, which is the point of the discussion.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
JCBrowns21 wrote:
Usually when we used the shotgun it was 3rd &long or late in the game. Defenses were a little softer and there were more receiving options in 3 and 4 receiver sets. I wouldn't read too much into this.


That is what he ran in college opposed to Shurmur's offense, which is the point of the discussion.


And even then he checked down to receivers or backs short of the 1st down marker, often wasting opportunities to receivers coming open on longer routes.

He sees open targets and even then misses them way more often than not on longer, mostly vertical routes.

He doesn't see space targets coming open are headed to.

At best Weeden is a project with a pretty low ceiling.
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