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Tommy Kelly a top candidate for release
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Raiiiiidersssss


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys I want off the team next year

Seymour (contract expires, don't resign)
Kelly - Cut
DHB - Cut
McClain - Cut
Huff - Cut
Brisel - Cut?

What overpaid players am I missing?
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G


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sapp got him paid and now it's time to move on...
I'm hoping for 2 new DL in the draft and don't want them picking up yellow habits or stoooppiidd mistakes. I'm ready for the youth movement on Defense. Hoping to trade down and get more picks to make it happen ASAP...Would love Star and Brandon Williams. Even if Bryant resigns.
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daineraider


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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Location: Salt Lake City
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raiiiiidersssss wrote:
Guys I want off the team next year

Seymour (contract expires, don't resign)
Kelly - Cut
DHB - Cut
McClain - Cut
Huff - Cut
Brisel - Cut?

What overpaid players am I missing?


Palmer-restructure or cut after next year
McFadden-play pbs so he isnt overpaid and overrated
Ford-not making that much but always injured so pretty worthless

Just to add a few more. Within 2 years we should have most our dead cap money gone. And if we get rid of these ridiculous contracts that are left we will be in real good cap shape soon. McKenzie has a lot tougher job than everyone thinks. He has a lot to work through to get this team in a situation to be able to compete.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
He really regressed last season and with his contract there's no reason to bring him back. It's time to move on from the Kelly-Seymour duo and move forward with Bryant, Bilukidi, and hopefully a new nose tackle that we acquire this off-season.


That would be us playing him at NT, not regression. He is and always has been a good penetrating DT or possibly a 3-4 end who can get after the QB. In the right system I beleive he could put up great numbers (as evidenced by 14.5 sacks in 2 seasons here), albeit with a few daft and needless penalties thrown in while trying to guess the snap count.

Shame we didn't get a true run stopping DT next to him and allow him to do his thing, we never fully utilised his skills. I'm not sad to see him go but I don't get why some of you guys are so tough on him, he said himself he didn't want to play NT but did it the best he could for the team for which he should be applauded Sad


I disagree with this man. Vehemently. How was he never utilized? He played UT for years. He gave us exactly what he is and the most he'll ever be. A tweener sized UT with strong pass rush and poor gap discipline, minimal leadership and generally undisciplined play capable of flashing great ability on occasion.
It's all there in the games, just watch em. Noone told him to leave his gap. Noone coached him to ride the blocker off the play. Noone told him to stand up straight and not move while the ball carrier ran by.

In 8 years he was never greater than that and it's not due to misuse.

It's the same thing as a guy like Huff. Does anyone believe if these guys were such good players that even if they were in the wrong position that at least they would consistently flash such skill, this forcing the team to reconsider their use? You can pigeonhole a guy in the wrong place for a couple years, maybe even 4 years. But 8 years, and still nothing emerges in them? Come on...

Every defense plays multiple looks all year long. If Kelly, or Huff, or any of the guys like them were so good as players, it would have shown in the look that is the right fit for them. It didn't. They're inconsistent, physically talented, undisciplined, and mediocre footballers. And they're not going to all of a sudden become something more in a different situation, not by scheme change and not here or elsewhere.

But I do agree with what you are saying if you are saying that the team blew it for themselves by not shielding Kelly's flaws and playing to his strengths. That I can agree with. That way you can get more out of the guy you have, for what he is. Problem with that is the defensive personnel we have assembled over the last 10 years is so disparate and ill fit that it's really really hard to come up with looks that hide all of their weaknesses and accent all of their strengths. They were never built together as a unit, only plucked as superior athletes and tossed together. Turns out a man on man beat em individually defense is in fact the best fit for a group like that. And now we see why that's such a terrible drafting and defensive philosophy. In the modern NFL, at best, you can be mediocre trying to physically outsize and outrace the competition. At worst you can be a defensive abomination. Because most other teams can now match you physically, and then beat you cohesively and strategically.


I think we are both on the same wavelength Ghost Smile , perhaps i didn't explain clearly enough..........What i meant was that we failed to consistently put him in situations where his ability to penetrate and cause mayhem in the backfield was accentuated and his weaknesses at gap discipline, holding the point of attack and shooting past the play were somewhat hidden.

We expected him to be a player he was not and then castigated him for not living up to the role he was maladjusted to play. Kelly IMO could have been a great DT in the mold of a Warren Sapp, where they just concentrate on doing wat they do well and other parts of the team are put in place to hide or cover their weaknesses.

You are totally spot on in the reasoninhg why, the team was assembled as individuals and not as cohesive parts, able to work together and become stronger than the sum of their parts, we were always weaker than the sum of the parts because of it.
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Mr.Bob Dobalina


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't think tommy Kelly goes anywhere. He had a poor season last year but is only 31 and has about 2 more good seasons left. He brings a nastiness and toughness to our d. Plus we would be awful thin on the d- line with some unproven players.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Bob Dobalina wrote:
Don't think tommy Kelly goes anywhere. He had a poor season last year but is only 31 and has about 2 more good seasons left. He brings a nastiness and toughness to our d. Plus we would be awful thin on the d- line with some unproven players.


Think again. He brings stupidity and lack of discipline to our defense. And has a big salary that we could easily do without.
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raidr4life


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
He really regressed last season and with his contract there's no reason to bring him back. It's time to move on from the Kelly-Seymour duo and move forward with Bryant, Bilukidi, and hopefully a new nose tackle that we acquire this off-season.


That would be us playing him at NT, not regression. He is and always has been a good penetrating DT or possibly a 3-4 end who can get after the QB. In the right system I beleive he could put up great numbers (as evidenced by 14.5 sacks in 2 seasons here), albeit with a few daft and needless penalties thrown in while trying to guess the snap count.

Shame we didn't get a true run stopping DT next to him and allow him to do his thing, we never fully utilised his skills. I'm not sad to see him go but I don't get why some of you guys are so tough on him, he said himself he didn't want to play NT but did it the best he could for the team for which he should be applauded Sad


I disagree with this man. Vehemently. How was he never utilized? He played UT for years. He gave us exactly what he is and the most he'll ever be. A tweener sized UT with strong pass rush and poor gap discipline, minimal leadership and generally undisciplined play capable of flashing great ability on occasion.
It's all there in the games, just watch em. Noone told him to leave his gap. Noone coached him to ride the blocker off the play. Noone told him to stand up straight and not move while the ball carrier ran by.

In 8 years he was never greater than that and it's not due to misuse.

It's the same thing as a guy like Huff. Does anyone believe if these guys were such good players that even if they were in the wrong position that at least they would consistently flash such skill, this forcing the team to reconsider their use? You can pigeonhole a guy in the wrong place for a couple years, maybe even 4 years. But 8 years, and still nothing emerges in them? Come on...

Every defense plays multiple looks all year long. If Kelly, or Huff, or any of the guys like them were so good as players, it would have shown in the look that is the right fit for them. It didn't. They're inconsistent, physically talented, undisciplined, and mediocre footballers. And they're not going to all of a sudden become something more in a different situation, not by scheme change and not here or elsewhere.

But I do agree with what you are saying if you are saying that the team blew it for themselves by not shielding Kelly's flaws and playing to his strengths. That I can agree with. That way you can get more out of the guy you have, for what he is. Problem with that is the defensive personnel we have assembled over the last 10 years is so disparate and ill fit that it's really really hard to come up with looks that hide all of their weaknesses and accent all of their strengths. They were never built together as a unit, only plucked as superior athletes and tossed together. Turns out a man on man beat em individually defense is in fact the best fit for a group like that. And now we see why that's such a terrible drafting and defensive philosophy. In the modern NFL, at best, you can be mediocre trying to physically outsize and outrace the competition. At worst you can be a defensive abomination. Because most other teams can now match you physically, and then beat you cohesively and strategically.
I agree every defense plays multiple looks all year long except this defense. For years our defense was man to man single high deep safety four man rush, so honestly who knows what these guys could have been in more diverse defenses.
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NickButera


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see McKenzie gutting the team without the right pieces to replace them with. If you look at who, as of right now, is in danger of leaving:

Defensive backfield:
Hanson, Spencer, Giordano, Mitchell, (Adams and Francies are RFA's)

Then you've also got Barnes and Coop on the line, Myers and Goodson on the offensive side of the ball.

Wheeler, Shaugnessy, Andre Carter, Bryant, and Gaither on the defensive front. - That's most of our defensive front.

(I may have overlooked something, but this is the list I'm looking at now)

Obviously a lot of these guys are easily replaceable on the cheap, and a good chunk we'll resign here in the next month. However you add onto that the fact that Seymour is gone, and you have holes all over the team.

Cap cuts are going to be determined on who we're able to retain within this next month. Reggie has a ton of positions to fill and while he does need to do a cap cut or 2 to save money, I can't see him creating more major holes to fill until he's shored a lot of them up. If we can't retain Carter, Bryant and Shaughnessy (or don't want to)... I can't see McKenzie cutting Kelly right away.

On a side note, add into this the fact that rumors say we're discussing what to do with Palmer.... in light of all these holes and cap cuts, I can't see us letting him go at this point in time either. But I'm just thinking out loud here.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickButera wrote:

Cap cuts are going to be determined on who we're able to retain within this next month. Reggie has a ton of positions to fill and while he does need to do a cap cut or 2 to save money, I can't see him creating more major holes to fill until he's shored a lot of them up. If we can't retain Carter, Bryant and Shaughnessy (or don't want to)... I can't see McKenzie cutting Kelly right away.


You raise some good points Nick, but Tommy Kelly doesn't strike me as the model of player Reggie wants to build this franchise around. Bryant, Shaugnessy, Houston seem more like the no-nonsense, hard working, un-flashy types that McKenzie would elect to keep and build around. Kelly has a niche which he could in the right situation be very good at but i just don't see it at this team now...........

I'd be very suprised if Bryant is let go, Bilikidi seems to be liked by the staff and rotation DTs are pretty easy to come by.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk, we're on the same page but then you go on to mention he could have been great if kept in one system or situation. In the modern NFL, having one dimensional ability goes against the definition of great.

Kelly could have been more effectively used by us, but never great. Ever.

raidr4life - I hear you that we played that one look almost exclusively. Still, no game is 60+ plays of only one look. Even in our former defense. And I don't recall anything making Kelly look any better than described. Pass rushing, semi lazy undisciplined UT tweener with poor gap control. That is who he is.

And in the past year where we changed the scheme, even though he played NT, he had his worst year of all.
In my belief, it turns out that guys like him are so poor at football intelligence and skills in general that if you put him in another scheme he disappears. Because the only thing the mishmash of athletes we had and have can play effectively is the simplest "defense for dummies" that is possible. It's what happens when you don't draft football players. They're simply not professional in their ability to play football, and all that entails beyond lifting weights and running sprints, and that type of physical work.


How many guys do we have to cut and see signed to other teams to finally figure this out. None of them - NONE - are going on to have a beautiful renaissance on another team. Because they're just not that good. It's happened over and over and over. Guys leave, and play exactly as they played here.
In fact, I'd say with a guy like Asomugha we actually DID put him in the best position possible. The dude cannot excel in anything but the defense we used to play. Hes totally average in zone, and every part of his game other man coverage is average at best. He's been exposed for all that in Philly.

Woodson is the only exception. And by his own admittance it is due to the fact that he finally took his work seriously in GB.
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RaiderX


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
According to reports the team could save about $7M by cutting or trading Kelly.



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TiberiusRising


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just read that if we cut McClain after June 1st(or designate probably) we only carry 5.34mil dead money but it can be spread over two years. So our cap savings here would be just over 1.6mil this year if I am calculating correct. If not someone please correct me.
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NickButera


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
NickButera wrote:

Cap cuts are going to be determined on who we're able to retain within this next month. Reggie has a ton of positions to fill and while he does need to do a cap cut or 2 to save money, I can't see him creating more major holes to fill until he's shored a lot of them up. If we can't retain Carter, Bryant and Shaughnessy (or don't want to)... I can't see McKenzie cutting Kelly right away.


You raise some good points Nick, but Tommy Kelly doesn't strike me as the model of player Reggie wants to build this franchise around. Bryant, Shaugnessy, Houston seem more like the no-nonsense, hard working, un-flashy types that McKenzie would elect to keep and build around. Kelly has a niche which he could in the right situation be very good at but i just don't see it at this team now...........

I'd be very suprised if Bryant is let go, Bilikidi seems to be liked by the staff and rotation DTs are pretty easy to come by.


I agree with you on all points. Small point of interest though, Bryant is a free agent. He's going to get interest from other teams and he may want to test the market. We may not have a choice in letting him go if that's what he wants.
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cdUbs14


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickButera wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
NickButera wrote:

Cap cuts are going to be determined on who we're able to retain within this next month. Reggie has a ton of positions to fill and while he does need to do a cap cut or 2 to save money, I can't see him creating more major holes to fill until he's shored a lot of them up. If we can't retain Carter, Bryant and Shaughnessy (or don't want to)... I can't see McKenzie cutting Kelly right away.


You raise some good points Nick, but Tommy Kelly doesn't strike me as the model of player Reggie wants to build this franchise around. Bryant, Shaugnessy, Houston seem more like the no-nonsense, hard working, un-flashy types that McKenzie would elect to keep and build around. Kelly has a niche which he could in the right situation be very good at but i just don't see it at this team now...........

I'd be very suprised if Bryant is let go, Bilikidi seems to be liked by the staff and rotation DTs are pretty easy to come by.


I agree with you on all points. Small point of interest though, Bryant is a free agent. He's going to get interest from other teams and he may want to test the market. We may not have a choice in letting him go if that's what he wants.


True but he may also want to consider playing time when he thinks about another team, he will get a lot more playing time here than somewhere else most likely.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickButera wrote:

On a side note, add into this the fact that rumors say we're discussing what to do with Palmer.... in light of all these holes and cap cuts, I can't see us letting him go at this point in time either. But I'm just thinking out loud here.


Right now I'd be talking to him about restructure (team wants) and what he wants...If he wants to be a part of this and is willing to restructure, then we're good. If not I'd trade him if there are decent offers, if not decent I'd tell him were keeping his services for another year. I think packaging him in a trade down especially if he wants to leave as then maybe he'll sign and trade to another team. I'm think Arizona for a 2nd and if Joeckel is at our pick they'd need a LT and with a package trade of Palmer and #3 for 7/38/71 and their 1st next year would actually be fair value if Palmer is worth a 2nd...
Him and McFadden to the Jets would also work, but they can't afford it at this time.
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