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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

copeland wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
They have a history of not investing in the DT position. That's fairly obvious. When a player at DT's price rises, we've never liked to pay it. Wolfes been out biggest investment at the position in years, and I don't see another big investment this year.

It's a theory I have, time will tell if there's anything to it, I just don't think they see it as the need that the fan base sees it as. I don't agree with it, I still think DT is a high priority need, I'm just trying to put myself in their mind - and I don't see them investing heavily in the DT position this offseason. Again, just a theory I'm running with for this mock, not one I necessarily agree with, but wanted to use some tendencies I'be noticed from our front office.

In other words AK I don't think me and you have a different perspective when it comes to DT, but I have a hunch our front office sees it different from the majority of the fan base - and that's been that way for years as we've invested one early pick in what seems like ages at the position.


I think if you separate the Elway regime from prior history you'll notice quite a difference.

Year 1 they went after DT pretty heavy with Warren and Bunkley. Didn't work out so well.

Year 2 they beef up Vic sign Bannan and add Wolfe and Siliga. I guess my feeling is the Elway regime is giving the position quite a bit of attention.


Agree with this.
I think the reason some get the impression they haven't given it alot of attention, is because the FO hasn't made it a point to go get a big name DT in FA, or moved up to get a great prospect in the draft.
Here again, the interior line has improved markedly over the last couple years.
If they want to improve it, they need put alot of thought into moving up or spend alot of money in FA. I don't think they will do either, and with good reason. It's a solid team throughout, they just need to decide where they want to improve it, and that could be, with a few acceptions, any position.
I hope they keep stacking the team with solid talent, making good use of the draft picks, and taking a calculated risk on a player(via draft or FA) here and there. Just my thoughts
.


Thats why I keep thinking we'll be drafting as close to BPA as we have in decades. We could use an upgrade in lots of places, but don't have needs so dire anywhere as to force a "reach" at any position.

An amazing position to be in considering the train wreck we were just a few years ago. Elway and Co just need to keep doing what they're doing. We'll be jsut fine.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, I like your draft. Looks like your top 3 would probably be pretty rapid contributers.
Don't like your 5th pick though. We've already got 7 Safeties including Carter and 2 PS guys. I can't see two rookies coming in and making the team.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why doesn't anyone like Big Vick? I thought everyone liked Big Vick. It is better than a Little Vick, isn't it?
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jsthomp2007 wrote:
Why doesn't anyone like Big Vick? I thought everyone liked Big Vick. It is better than a Little Vick, isn't it?


I like Vickerson. Just trying to put myself in the mind of Elway & co. and this has been a franchise that hasn't invested money at the position. They look for value at the position. Maybe Vickerson priced himself out of Denver's preferred price range at the position?
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champ+jay+al=SB


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
jsthomp2007 wrote:
Why doesn't anyone like Big Vick? I thought everyone liked Big Vick. It is better than a Little Vick, isn't it?


I like Vickerson. Just trying to put myself in the mind of Elway & co. and this has been a franchise that hasn't invested money at the position. They look for value at the position. Maybe Vickerson priced himself out of Denver's preferred price range at the position?


He's a 30 yr old who just had his best season....you think he is gonna command a price that is too high?
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ+jay+al=SB wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
jsthomp2007 wrote:
Why doesn't anyone like Big Vick? I thought everyone liked Big Vick. It is better than a Little Vick, isn't it?


I like Vickerson. Just trying to put myself in the mind of Elway & co. and this has been a franchise that hasn't invested money at the position. They look for value at the position. Maybe Vickerson priced himself out of Denver's preferred price range at the position?


He's a 30 yr old who just had his best season....you think he is gonna command a price that is too high?


He's not going to go for some insane contract but Relative to what Denver likes to pay defensive tackles probably yes. I think there's a plug and play attitude when it comes to paying money for that position. I don't know why, just a pattern through the years. We bring tackles in on discount/good value, when they show they're worth more (usually they don't) but when we do we've let them walk. Investing an early 2nd is the most expensive acquisition we've had at the DT position in over 10 years. That trend of trying to find value rather than pay a high price for DT's has been prevalent now through 3 regimes.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but there's definite evidence of it. Yes we've brought guys in, but they're always brought in cheap, and often boom/bust type acquisitions that we find at low value.

Recent examples:
Bannan - calls Colorado home. He's here cheaper because its where he wants to be
Buckley - former first round pick, had one good year, brought here for super cheap and all that was was the coaches/front office trying a revival project. Once he proved he could play at a good level (and was due more money) we cut ties.
Ty Warren - if he didnt have the injury problems do you think he'd be as cheap as we signed him for? No way. Another low risk high reward, boom or bust attempt at extreme value.
Brandon Mebane - it was Denver vs Seattle, and the contract Mebane signed was not out of our price range, it was a very good deal for Seattle, what 5 years $22 million? We drove bidding up to around $72 million for Charles Johnson, a DE, I believe that same year, so there's proof money was available. No Mebanes not worth Charles Johnson money, but the point is, we could have driven that price up more.

I question whether this franchise has ever allocated large sums of money for the DT position. I haven't seen it in the last ten years.

Remember, it's not something I agree with. I would spend on re-signing Vickerson... I would have kept bidding on Mebane. I'd spend more money on the position than Pat Bowlen cares to. Just saying there's a definite pattern of this franchise avoiding big commitments at the DT position, and it has spanned multiple regimes. I hope we give Wolfe the money he'll command when it's his turn to get paid. Maybe drafting a good player at DT will make us more flexible in spending to keep him.

Oh by the way, this hunch of mine may have potential to be placed in the "I was wrong thread." Kind of hope I end up taking it there.
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champ+jay+al=SB


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally understand where you are coming from. I get it. I just can't see Vick getting paid more than a couple million per year if even that so I personally would be surprised to see Denver not pony that up. And I am sure he wants to stay in Denver.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ+jay+al=SB wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
jsthomp2007 wrote:
Why doesn't anyone like Big Vick? I thought everyone liked Big Vick. It is better than a Little Vick, isn't it?


I like Vickerson. Just trying to put myself in the mind of Elway & co. and this has been a franchise that hasn't invested money at the position. They look for value at the position. Maybe Vickerson priced himself out of Denver's preferred price range at the position?


He's a 30 yr old who just had his best season....you think he is gonna command a price that is too high?


Nobody likes 30 year old Big Vick? There are plenty of people who like 30 year old Vick, especially 30 year old Big Vick. I mean, Big Vick probably needs a big deck (for his house), and big decks cost money, so Big Vick needs big money, to pay for big decks.
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primetime714


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like this mock. I think the idea of getting Bennett for LDE and moving Wolfe inside to UT would be fantastic as it would improve the pass rush from the base D (especially when Von is dropping into coverage) while maintaining a strong run defense. The only question I have is can the Broncos afford to give Bennett the long term deal he deserves and will get without having to part with guys that will need to be signed in the future. With new contracts needed in the next couple years for Von, Decker, Thomas, Woodyard, Walton, and Beadles can the Broncos really afford everyone? If not who do you part with? I suppose if the team is willing to drop Doom or Champ in a year or two it might work, but they might have to do that anyway for Miller. I think the Bennett signing could work, but it would be risky. Also given the overwhelming need for pass rushers around the league I could see the bidding on him getting pretty ridiculous.

I also agree with the perspective that there's a very good chance the Broncos won't invest in Vickerson. Last year the thought of not bringing Bunkley back seemed ridiculous to almost all of us. Also if you track Fox and JDR their history has shown that they've let a lot of DT's walk and haven't spent a lot of money or high draft picks at the position. Additionally Elway has publicly stated the positions that he views as a priority and DT is not one of them. I think this is a position the team wants to be financially responsible at and would be ok relying on inexpensive veterans (Bannan) and young under-the-radar types (Siliga, Unrein, Jackson). Also Wolfe with an offseason to bulk up could provide an upgrade to Vickerson. In short I think this is a very realistic approach to the position.

As for the draft. I like Minter in the first. I'm worried about how he'll do in pass coverage in the pros, but with Trevathan the team can take him out in nickel situations. Frederick is a good fit for the interior line and a good eventual replacement to Kuper. The team needs another run blocker inside and Kuper just hasn't been up to task even when healthy. Not a huge fan of Williams as I don't see him as an upgrade over Carter/Adams, but its not a terrible pick. Blake is a solid pick. Jefferson at this point would be a GREAT pick, but despite the issues you've described I still don't see him falling this far. That said even if he did its not the type of guy the Broncos have been drafting lately as they've put high value on character (team captains with good work ethic). I don't see Michael still being there in the 7th either.

Overall though great job, one of the best mocks I've seen.
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7DnBrnc53


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Soliai Reply with quote

For what it's worth, didn't the Broncos make a run at Paul Soliai of the Dolphins last year?
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primetime714


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Soliai Reply with quote

7DnBrnc53 wrote:
For what it's worth, didn't the Broncos make a run at Paul Soliai of the Dolphins last year?


Yes and the Dolphins offered more. Same story with Mebane and Bunkley. Point being that there is a common tale of the Broncos placing a lower value on DT's than the rest of the league. This is exactly the reason why there's a pretty good chance they let Vickerson walk.

A guy like Bannan is likely back because he played well and probably won't ask for more money. Vickerson on the other hand is looking at probably his last real shot at a decent long term deal. He'll take if it comes from someone other than Denver and the Broncos will let him go if he gets a more a lucrative offer elsewhere. That said Elway was the one to give Vickerson his last deal so I could definitely see him staying on something similar to the last deal he signed (without the paycut he took this year).
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kansas bob


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:
kansas bob wrote:
You are going to let Vick and Koppen walk and resign Bannan? I surely don't understand that one. I disagree with your off season moves. This is a very deep DL class and you managed to avoid them all?

For backup interior OLman you usually want a guy that can play OG also. Koppen can't and I dont think he has. But Koppen at this point is not a good C and Walton should be an upgrade(and hopefully he learned ffrom Koppen because he's a smart OL just physically declined).

I'd be shocked if Jefferson fell to the 5th. And Vickerson I think if someone overpays he's gone but if the price is right I think he'll be resigned.

How do you know that Walton will be a better C when he comes back than Koppen is? He wasn't when he was hurt? Why do you think they brought Koppen in?
Why is it that if anyone disagrees with you they are "belly aching"? We have a right to our opinion also. There is a lot of Bronco knowledge on this site, pay attention and you may learn something. lol
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broncosfan07


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kansas bob wrote:
Donut wrote:
kansas bob wrote:
You are going to let Vick and Koppen walk and resign Bannan? I surely don't understand that one. I disagree with your off season moves. This is a very deep DL class and you managed to avoid them all?

For backup interior OLman you usually want a guy that can play OG also. Koppen can't and I dont think he has. But Koppen at this point is not a good C and Walton should be an upgrade(and hopefully he learned ffrom Koppen because he's a smart OL just physically declined).

I'd be shocked if Jefferson fell to the 5th. And Vickerson I think if someone overpays he's gone but if the price is right I think he'll be resigned.

How do you know that Walton will be a better C when he comes back than Koppen is? He wasn't when he was hurt? Why do you think they brought Koppen in?
Why is it that if anyone disagrees with you they are "belly aching"? We have a right to our opinion also. There is a lot of Bronco knowledge on this site, pay attention and you may learn something. lol
Koppen was only brought in because Walton and Blake went down, the only 2 players capable of playing Center. Koppen was in no way better than Walton at any point in the season.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kansas bob wrote:
Donut wrote:
kansas bob wrote:
You are going to let Vick and Koppen walk and resign Bannan? I surely don't understand that one. I disagree with your off season moves. This is a very deep DL class and you managed to avoid them all?

For backup interior OLman you usually want a guy that can play OG also. Koppen can't and I dont think he has. But Koppen at this point is not a good C and Walton should be an upgrade(and hopefully he learned ffrom Koppen because he's a smart OL just physically declined).

I'd be shocked if Jefferson fell to the 5th. And Vickerson I think if someone overpays he's gone but if the price is right I think he'll be resigned.

How do you know that Walton will be a better C when he comes back than Koppen is? He wasn't when he was hurt? Why do you think they brought Koppen in?
Why is it that if anyone disagrees with you they are "belly aching"? We have a right to our opinion also. There is a lot of Bronco knowledge on this site, pay attention and you may learn something. lol

Walton was a better C last yr. I've watched majority of Koppen's career and his last TC he was dreadful. He had a decent yr but he is bad against big NT and physically isn't where he used to be. Mentally extremely intelligent C but physically he has lost his quickness and strength. I personally like Walton and imo has been one of the more underrated Bronco players. I think Walton should come back strong and continue to improve. There's a reason Koppen was Walton's backup.
I dont know what you're talking about if the belly aching comment was directed at me?

broncosfan07 wrote:
kansas bob wrote:
Donut wrote:
kansas bob wrote:
You are going to let Vick and Koppen walk and resign Bannan? I surely don't understand that one. I disagree with your off season moves. This is a very deep DL class and you managed to avoid them all?

For backup interior OLman you usually want a guy that can play OG also. Koppen can't and I dont think he has. But Koppen at this point is not a good C and Walton should be an upgrade(and hopefully he learned ffrom Koppen because he's a smart OL just physically declined).

I'd be shocked if Jefferson fell to the 5th. And Vickerson I think if someone overpays he's gone but if the price is right I think he'll be resigned.

How do you know that Walton will be a better C when he comes back than Koppen is? He wasn't when he was hurt? Why do you think they brought Koppen in?
Why is it that if anyone disagrees with you they are "belly aching"? We have a right to our opinion also. There is a lot of Bronco knowledge on this site, pay attention and you may learn something. lol
Koppen was only brought in because Walton and Blake went down, the only 2 players capable of playing Center. Koppen was in no way better than Walton at any point in the season.
Koppen was on the roster prior to Walton's injury. Wasn't Blake struggling w/ snapping in TC?
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Koppen > than J.D. Walton. Perhaps J.D. can backup or make a run at another position along the OL.
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