Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

2013 Offseason Waiver/Release Wire
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 17, 18, 19  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Kansas City Chiefs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
OILCHIEFS


Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
DT58_lives_on wrote:
I'm having real issues with the "fair market value" concept.

1. He's a veteran starter, who has proven he can lead a team, and not cost then Games.

2. We the people, and fans of the Chiefs haves no idea what else was on the table for the niners.

3. The market was extremely skewed inn favor of the 49ers after the combine.

I would say the market could easily have been what we gave up. Now do I like it, of course not, i think everyone on this board thought it'd take no more than a third...but I think a lot changed after the combine.


4. Trades the previous 5ish years involving QBs of somewhat similar skills/situations



I'm assuming you mean the trades like Kolb. The only difference is that Smith was very mediocre until the Niners were a good team. Smith is 29 at the time of trade and Kolb was 26 IIRC.

The value was about the same for the trade. Obviously the Cards we're hoping for the potential but got it wrong.

Now if Smith ends up being one of the bigger reasons for the Niners turn around and comes here and shows that, then I will be the first to say i was wrong and give credit to Dorsey for the value. However from the total body of work and the age of Smith (Topped out in most cases at this age), I dont think it was good value.

Essentially we didn't pay a premium for potential because he is what he is at this point IMO. So when the Niners have a few key guys to sign, i feel we could have waited out longer. Why make that offer right now?


I understand we don't know what fully goes on, but until more information rises about it, I don't love the value. Just so everyone knows, I think A.Smith was the best QB available this off season, but i'm thinking of it fully on the business side of value maximization.


Hopefully that gives you some insight on what I'm thinking. If you guys dont agree lemme know!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rearviewmirror


Moderator
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 18721
Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kolb wasn't proven for full seasons. Alex has proven to be solid for 2 full seasons (last half of '10, all of 11, all of 12 to injury) Kolb played several good games. Cassel play a decent full season with the best offense ever. Palmer obviously most proven, but hadn't played football for 1/2 season + the lockout, and he'd been getting progressively worse by the time he was traded.
_________________

les paul wrote:
There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RVM/DT,
My issue is not with Alex Smith. He is a huge upgrade over Matt Cassel. I am glad we made an attempt to upgrade the position after the debacle of last year. Unless we extend Smith this is a short term solution to a long term problem. He is 28, so he could be here for much longer than just two years. He does have some injury concerns.

Again, my issue is not with Smith. I do feel that atleast on the outside looking in, we jumped a little too quickly in trading for Smith and didn't try to play our hand a little longer. Dorsey didn't help when he indicated there weren't any quarterbacks worth the #1 pick (or something to that affect).

The 49ers really needed to part ways with Smith. He has been a good teammate and while not happy with losing the starting job, he hasn't let it become a team distraction. But the fact remains the team could not afford to keep Smith in a lockerroom that needed to become Kaepernicks. We didn't even wait closer to March 12th and get the 49ers to atleast consider that Smith could be on the books for the next two years at $9 million per. And of course we don't know the details of what other teams were interested enough to make any serious offers.

There was talk that Oakland could have been interested. They would have to do some real salary cap juggling to fit his contract in - not to mention create alot of dead money by cutting Carson Palmer. Also, they didn't even have a 2nd round pick.

Does anyone believe that another team was offering anything close to a first round pick? We offered a tremendously valuable pick and as I have mentioned, Dorsey comes from an organization that is well known for making good use of the draft to build a consistently competitive team.

I just want to have a team that makes shrewd, smart, calculated moves and builds us into a consistently competitive team. Will Dorsey do that? I hope so! I do!

Again, I don't dislike Smith at all. A definite upgrade over Cassel. Is he a top-tier starter? Not sure. I just think we folded too quickly at the table and I have a feeling we jumped and ended giving up more than we would have needed to if we would have played our hand a little better. That's all. Just an opinion.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rearviewmirror


Moderator
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 18721
Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
RVM/DT,
My issue is not with Alex Smith. He is a huge upgrade over Matt Cassel. I am glad we made an attempt to upgrade the position after the debacle of last year. Unless we extend Smith this is a short term solution to a long term problem. He is 28, so he could be here for much longer than just two years. He does have some injury concerns.

Again, my issue is not with Smith. I do feel that atleast on the outside looking in, we jumped a little too quickly in trading for Smith and didn't try to play our hand a little longer. Dorsey didn't help when he indicated there weren't any quarterbacks worth the #1 pick (or something to that affect).

The 49ers really needed to part ways with Smith. He has been a good teammate and while not happy with losing the starting job, he hasn't let it become a team distraction. But the fact remains the team could not afford to keep Smith in a lockerroom that needed to become Kaepernicks. We didn't even wait closer to March 12th and get the 49ers to atleast consider that Smith could be on the books for the next two years at $9 million per. And of course we don't know the details of what other teams were interested enough to make any serious offers.

There was talk that Oakland could have been interested. They would have to do some real salary cap juggling to fit his contract in - not to mention create alot of dead money by cutting Carson Palmer. Also, they didn't even have a 2nd round pick.

Does anyone believe that another team was offering anything close to a first round pick? We offered a tremendously valuable pick and as I have mentioned, Dorsey comes from an organization that is well known for making good use of the draft to build a consistently competitive team.

I just want to have a team that makes shrewd, smart, calculated moves and builds us into a consistently competitive team. Will Dorsey do that? I hope so! I do!

Again, I don't dislike Smith at all. A definite upgrade over Cassel. Is he a top-tier starter? Not sure. I just think we folded too quickly at the table and I have a feeling we jumped and ended giving up more than we would have needed to if we would have played our hand a little better. That's all. Just an opinion.


You seemed a lot more upset and depressed over this than this explanation entails. Your attitude seemed to be depressed and legitimately hurt over it and indicated more than just hating the value. If you've softened clearly I understand, it just shocked me that you were that down. I honestly can't see Dorsey and Reid being stupid enough to bid against themselves. If they gave up this much (and again the deal isn't official so we don't know for sure) then my bet would be they had to do it and they really like Alex Smith.
_________________

les paul wrote:
There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
OILCHIEFS


Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
RVM/DT,
My issue is not with Alex Smith. He is a huge upgrade over Matt Cassel. I am glad we made an attempt to upgrade the position after the debacle of last year. Unless we extend Smith this is a short term solution to a long term problem. He is 28, so he could be here for much longer than just two years. He does have some injury concerns.

Again, my issue is not with Smith. I do feel that atleast on the outside looking in, we jumped a little too quickly in trading for Smith and didn't try to play our hand a little longer. Dorsey didn't help when he indicated there weren't any quarterbacks worth the #1 pick (or something to that affect).

The 49ers really needed to part ways with Smith. He has been a good teammate and while not happy with losing the starting job, he hasn't let it become a team distraction. But the fact remains the team could not afford to keep Smith in a lockerroom that needed to become Kaepernicks. We didn't even wait closer to March 12th and get the 49ers to atleast consider that Smith could be on the books for the next two years at $9 million per. And of course we don't know the details of what other teams were interested enough to make any serious offers.

There was talk that Oakland could have been interested. They would have to do some real salary cap juggling to fit his contract in - not to mention create alot of dead money by cutting Carson Palmer. Also, they didn't even have a 2nd round pick.

Does anyone believe that another team was offering anything close to a first round pick? We offered a tremendously valuable pick and as I have mentioned, Dorsey comes from an organization that is well known for making good use of the draft to build a consistently competitive team.

I just want to have a team that makes shrewd, smart, calculated moves and builds us into a consistently competitive team. Will Dorsey do that? I hope so! I do!

Again, I don't dislike Smith at all. A definite upgrade over Cassel. Is he a top-tier starter? Not sure. I just think we folded too quickly at the table and I have a feeling we jumped and ended giving up more than we would have needed to if we would have played our hand a little better. That's all. Just an opinion.




Exactly what I was trying to say! Nicfre just makes it muh clearer! Thank you!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
nicfre2011 wrote:
RVM/DT,
My issue is not with Alex Smith. He is a huge upgrade over Matt Cassel. I am glad we made an attempt to upgrade the position after the debacle of last year. Unless we extend Smith this is a short term solution to a long term problem. He is 28, so he could be here for much longer than just two years. He does have some injury concerns.

Again, my issue is not with Smith. I do feel that atleast on the outside looking in, we jumped a little too quickly in trading for Smith and didn't try to play our hand a little longer. Dorsey didn't help when he indicated there weren't any quarterbacks worth the #1 pick (or something to that affect).

The 49ers really needed to part ways with Smith. He has been a good teammate and while not happy with losing the starting job, he hasn't let it become a team distraction. But the fact remains the team could not afford to keep Smith in a lockerroom that needed to become Kaepernicks. We didn't even wait closer to March 12th and get the 49ers to atleast consider that Smith could be on the books for the next two years at $9 million per. And of course we don't know the details of what other teams were interested enough to make any serious offers.

There was talk that Oakland could have been interested. They would have to do some real salary cap juggling to fit his contract in - not to mention create alot of dead money by cutting Carson Palmer. Also, they didn't even have a 2nd round pick.

Does anyone believe that another team was offering anything close to a first round pick? We offered a tremendously valuable pick and as I have mentioned, Dorsey comes from an organization that is well known for making good use of the draft to build a consistently competitive team.

I just want to have a team that makes shrewd, smart, calculated moves and builds us into a consistently competitive team. Will Dorsey do that? I hope so! I do!

Again, I don't dislike Smith at all. A definite upgrade over Cassel. Is he a top-tier starter? Not sure. I just think we folded too quickly at the table and I have a feeling we jumped and ended giving up more than we would have needed to if we would have played our hand a little better. That's all. Just an opinion.


You seemed a lot more upset and depressed over this than this explanation entails. Your attitude seemed to be depressed and legitimately hurt over it and indicated more than just hating the value. If you've softened clearly I understand, it just shocked me that you were that down. I honestly can't see Dorsey and Reid being stupid enough to bid against themselves. If they gave up this much (and again the deal isn't official so we don't know for sure) then my bet would be they had to do it and they really like Alex Smith.


It was more shock and disbelief because I have been really looking forward to the drafting leverage of having a high second round pick in a draft that IMO figures to be better in that range than even at the top of the first round as far as overall talent goes. I was pretty upset because I just didn't see the market being overwhelming for Smith, and certainly not that early in the game. I was just more upset over the idea that we jumped right into the mix and I was honestly expecting to see a more equitable deal for Smith if we went for him. Again, Smith is a huge upgrade over Cassel, I can definitely appreciate that.

Again, it all comes down to bargaining - and I would have liked to have seen Dorsey play a little more hardball and if that meant letting the 49ers dangle a little bit, then I was ok with that. Again, make them think about the idea of keeping Smith for $9 million per year for the next two years and having a natural issue in the lockerroom and potentially impact Kaepernick's growth. There is no way the 49ers would have kept Smith on the roster. No way. That was a classic smokescreen IMO. So again, I didn't see the market as super hot for Smith.

I support Smith, Dorsey, and Reid and couldn't think of not doing so - I guess I just had expectations that this new regime could work some magic obviously missing from the last one. I still have nightmares of the complete incompetence of the last regime and when I saw this trade go down and the reports of the high compensation package, I couldn't help but worry if maybe Dorsey and Reid would be more of the same, just a different set of characters.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rearviewmirror


Moderator
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 18721
Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also of the opinion that you can completely disregard any hope that SF would have released him. I'm sure they had more trade partners than just us, and even so, Kaep's salary plus Alex's plus their 3rd QBs is probably still way way less than most teams QB total salaries. I highly doubt if they had no trade partners they would cut a guy proven to be that good of a backup. It's still a business and whether Alex would like it or he signed the contract with em. You just don't cut a QB that good no matter what. I have no doubt that the 49ers were never ever scared they would be "forced" to carry Alex's contract.

Also, think of this with deal being Done Alex can get playbook, meet teammates, etc. right away. That's important IMO. Means Alex can probably come in to OTA's knowing most the playbook (if not all).
_________________

les paul wrote:
There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
I'm also of the opinion that you can completely disregard any hope that SF would have released him. I'm sure they had more trade partners than just us, and even so, Kaep's salary plus Alex's plus their 3rd QBs is probably still way way less than most teams QB total salaries. I highly doubt if they had no trade partners they would cut a guy proven to be that good of a backup. It's still a business and whether Alex would like it or he signed the contract with em. You just don't cut a QB that good no matter what. I have no doubt that the 49ers were never ever scared they would be "forced" to carry Alex's contract.


RVM, I think you are missing the point. I am not talking as much about the salary or combined salaries of the quarterbacks. I am talking about the fact that they know this needs to be Kaepernick's team. They will now go out and get a "serviceable" veteran - someone with little to no determination to be a starter. Smith is a starting caliber quarterback and I have to feel that they knew that despite him being a high character individual, that he probably wouldn't be a big fan of standing on the sideline for two more years.

And of course there would be other trade partners. That I do not doubt at all. I never thought they would really consider trading him because I think someone would have stepped up and they wouldn't have had to cut him. They might have ultimately agreed to release him if they couldn't find a decent trade offer largely to give him an opportunity - I see that as being more of an option than the 49ers keeping him.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Diesel2692


Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 2694
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eh I think we overpaid plain and simple. It's been discussed by some football heads. Apparently Reid REALLY likes Smith and his plan since coming to KC was to GET ALEX SMITH. He apparently didn't want to even consider other options, that was the guy he wanted. There were few other teams interested in him but I think we just decided to "overpay" and put SF in a position where they couldn't say no to win his rights now.

It is what it is. Done deal now. All I can say is Reid will have a very short stay in KC if Alex Smith doesn't come out the gates strong in KC. Maybe he should rent and not buy jic lol.

Alex Smith IS a guy who is easy to root for. Hope for our sakes and his that he can be the player everyone thought he was when he was drafted #1 overall.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diesel2692 wrote:
eh I think we overpaid plain and simple. It's been discussed by some football heads. Apparently Reid REALLY likes Smith and his plan since coming to KC was to GET ALEX SMITH. He apparently didn't want to even consider other options, that was the guy he wanted. There were few other teams interested in him but I think we just decided to "overpay" and put SF in a position where they couldn't say no to win his rights now.

It is what it is. Done deal now. All I can say is Reid will have a very short stay in KC if Alex Smith doesn't come out the gates strong in KC. Maybe he should rent and not buy jic lol.

Alex Smith IS a guy who is easy to root for. Hope for our sakes and his that he can be the player everyone thought he was when he was drafted #1 overall.


I am definitely on board with this in hoping that we succeed with Smith and Reid. If that is true and Reid could only see Alex Smith standing against the wall at the dance with a drink in his hand, then I am disappointed at the apparent inflexibility.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rearviewmirror


Moderator
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 18721
Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see we and by we I mean me too (probably mostly me) derailed this thread. Any further Alex talk should move from this thread.


So how about that Cullen Jenkins? Should we go after him?
_________________

les paul wrote:
There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
I see we and by we I mean me too (probably mostly me) derailed this thread. Any further Alex talk should move from this thread.


So how about that Cullen Jenkins? Should we go after him?


About time your mod conscience got to you! LOL

Wink

I think Jenkins could be a very good fit. Familiarity with Reid and Dorsey, plus he would bring atleast a decent pass rushing presence to an end position.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rearviewmirror


Moderator
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 18721
Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:
I see we and by we I mean me too (probably mostly me) derailed this thread. Any further Alex talk should move from this thread.


So how about that Cullen Jenkins? Should we go after him?


About time your mod conscience got to you! LOL

Wink

I think Jenkins could be a very good fit. Familiarity with Reid and Dorsey, plus he would bring atleast a decent pass rushing presence to an end position.


mod's don't have consciences. We are beaten severely until we become entirely emotionless
_________________

les paul wrote:
There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 4831
Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OILCHIEFS wrote:


I'm assuming you mean the trades like Kolb. The only difference is that Smith was very mediocre until the Niners were a good team. Smith is 29 at the time of trade and Kolb was 26 IIRC.

The value was about the same for the trade. Obviously the Cards we're hoping for the potential but got it wrong.

Now if Smith ends up being one of the bigger reasons for the Niners turn around and comes here and shows that, then I will be the first to say i was wrong and give credit to Dorsey for the value. However from the total body of work and the age of Smith (Topped out in most cases at this age), I dont think it was good value.

Essentially we didn't pay a premium for potential because he is what he is at this point IMO. So when the Niners have a few key guys to sign, i feel we could have waited out longer. Why make that offer right now?


I understand we don't know what fully goes on, but until more information rises about it, I don't love the value. Just so everyone knows, I think A.Smith was the best QB available this off season, but i'm thinking of it fully on the business side of value maximization.


Hopefully that gives you some insight on what I'm thinking. If you guys dont agree lemme know!


People have this perception the 49ers had such great talent and Smith was merely a product of that..of course that's true on defense. What about offense, the side that Alex plays on? 49ers ranked 11th in scoring in 2011 with a poor WR core, a poor pass blocking O Line, a good but not great RB that helped the 49ers rank only 19th in ypc. It seems very likely that Alex was one of the bigger reasons for their turnaround.
_________________
49ers Finest wrote:

People just seem to be mad because the chiefs are all of a sudden doing what their fans thought they were capable of
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OILCHIEFS


Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:


I'm assuming you mean the trades like Kolb. The only difference is that Smith was very mediocre until the Niners were a good team. Smith is 29 at the time of trade and Kolb was 26 IIRC.

The value was about the same for the trade. Obviously the Cards we're hoping for the potential but got it wrong.

Now if Smith ends up being one of the bigger reasons for the Niners turn around and comes here and shows that, then I will be the first to say i was wrong and give credit to Dorsey for the value. However from the total body of work and the age of Smith (Topped out in most cases at this age), I dont think it was good value.

Essentially we didn't pay a premium for potential because he is what he is at this point IMO. So when the Niners have a few key guys to sign, i feel we could have waited out longer. Why make that offer right now?


I understand we don't know what fully goes on, but until more information rises about it, I don't love the value. Just so everyone knows, I think A.Smith was the best QB available this off season, but i'm thinking of it fully on the business side of value maximization.


Hopefully that gives you some insight on what I'm thinking. If you guys dont agree lemme know!


People have this perception the 49ers had such great talent and Smith was merely a product of that..of course that's true on defense. What about offense, the side that Alex plays on? 49ers ranked 11th in scoring in 2011 with a poor WR core, a poor pass blocking O Line, a good but not great RB that helped the 49ers rank only 19th in ypc. It seems very likely that Alex was one of the bigger reasons for their turnaround.



We shall see! I hope so!




RVM, I wouldn't mind going after Jenkins. I'm pretty sure he's more of a 1-gap guy. He creates a ton of pressure though! My eagles friend loved Jenkins.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Kansas City Chiefs All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 17, 18, 19  Next
Page 5 of 19

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group