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Donut
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 11476
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 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmurtry86 wrote: | | Donut wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: | | Donut wrote: | | Well this is over. An undeserving sper champion and a disgusting effort by 49ers. |
Undeserving? They went on the road and beat the #1 and #2 seeds in the AFC and are about to knock off the consensus #1 team in the NFC
The Ravens might be unlikeable, but this is one of the strongest and best post-season runs of the past decade. They absolutely deserve to be champions |
They got helped by the refs to get into the playoffs. They have all the PEDs happening. Add in the fact they're dirty and despicable makes it harder.
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Helped by the refs - silly conspiracy talk
All the PED's - Ok, but so did the Pats so I guess they would have been "undeserving" as well.
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| mcmurtry86 wrote: | | Jacoby Jones might be a mediocre WR but he's a better kick returner than anyone the Pats have had in years and is a better #3 WR than the Pats have had in awhile as well. |
Doesnt he tend to drop kicks a decent amount? I'm hoping Demps will provide the big time KRer ability. |
He has had issues with fumbles and drops, this is true. I'm not counting on Demps for anything but maybe he can be their explosive element on KR. |
Honestly I'd say ATL and SF were more deserving. Though i think GB got shafted baddly because they should've been at home(though you may consider that a ref conspiracy(probably not because it blatant bad call and review wrong)).
Though i Jones really much better than Hobbs was? Maybe its me just looking back more positively on Hobbs than most but I dont remember him fumbling much and he was a good returner. As for Demps I always liked him and think he can contribute on STs next yr.
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| dhunt2402 wrote: | You're like the patron saint of roster bubble players  |
Adopt a Patriot: Ras I Dowling |
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Tzimisce
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 40626
Location: Slowly coming to terms with the inevitable
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mcmurtry86
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 16198
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Frank Gore is going to be one of those guys who is criminally underrated 10-15 years from now (he already is and history will probably forget him even more) |
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Tzimisce
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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Location: Slowly coming to terms with the inevitable
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Sciz
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 12835
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Tzimisce wrote: | | Seeing Pollard leave Moss wide open made me smile. |
There are maybe three safeties in the NFL who can hit hard, have the size to get away with hitting hard, and aren't liabilities in coverage.
Bernard Pollard is not one of those safeties.
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Richter
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 9319
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmurtry86 wrote: | | Richter wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: | | Richter wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: | | Donut wrote: | | Well this is over. An undeserving sper champion and a disgusting effort by 49ers. |
Undeserving? They went on the road and beat the #1 and #2 seeds in the AFC and are about to knock off the consensus #1 team in the NFC
The Ravens might be unlikeable, but this is one of the strongest and best post-season runs of the past decade. They absolutely deserve to be champions |
I know you'll argue this until you're blue in the face, and I haven't watched the game, so I can't comment on this particular performance, but there hasn't been a really deserving champion in years. The postseason is a joke now, or as one astute writer put it, the "fetishization of small sample sizes". Any crap team can amble in, get hot and win with how watered down the league is now. Nobody in their right mind thinks the Ravens are the best team this year, or that the Giants were last year, but that's not what the Lombardi represents at this point, anyway. |
Who is/was more deserving than Baltimore? Not New England. Not Denver. I'm struggling to see a team that could have won the Super Bowl that wouldn't have qualified as a "crap team" in your book.
The days of dominant teams steamrolling the league on a regular basis are gone. The only teams that come close to that are the 2007 Patriots who choked away their season and the 2004 Patriots who weren't even the best team in the AFC that year.
If the Ravens hold on (and that's starting to look shaky), they will absolutely be deserving. I don't understand how any team that can run the playoff gauntlet they have and win the Super Bowl (if that happens) can be considered undeserving. There isn't a single team in this year's playoffs that would have been a "deserving" champ by the criteria you set forth. |
There's no such thing as a playoff gauntlet any more. Denver and New England were both better teams. If the postseason convinces you otherwise, we'll simply never see eye to eye on the matter. |
The Steelers were better than the Patriots in 2004. They beat the Pats head to head and had a better record in the regular season. Thus, the 2004 Patriots were undeserving by your logic. Right?
Going on the road and better "better teams" is impressive, period. If Denver and the Pats were truly deserving of being called the "best" they would have taken care of business in the playoffs against such an inferior team.
The fact of the matter is the Pats were 0-2 vs Baltimore and looked absolutely awful against them at home in the playoffs. How you can call them a better team is beyond me. If the Pats were 15-1 or something, maybe I could agree. But this is a team that lost to 3 playoff teams in the regular season and dropped an awful game to Arizona.
You have a stronger argument with Denver, but even then their regular season schedule makes their "betterness" questionable. |
If you seriously think one or even two games actually decides anything, I really don't know what to say. What's a better sample size, 16 games or 1? Even if Baltimore has the advantage in the head to head matchup, that doesn't make them the better team overall. You love to point out the Pats' flaws, but did you actually watch the Ravens this season? Way, way more to point out there. You have to actually evaluate teams on the whole of their performance, not just the ones you want to cherry pick. I have no problem with the 49ers if they win, they're a legitimate elite team. If you see an elite team in the Ravens, and not just a team that's been riding an emotional high and playing on a hot streak, I really, really have to wonder what team you've been watching. |
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SFPatsFan
Joined: 31 Oct 2010
Posts: 1941
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| People are going crazy in the streets right now. The Niners are still down and shouldn't real fans be watching the game, not out walking and using their smartphones? |
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Tzimisce
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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Location: Slowly coming to terms with the inevitable
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mcmurtry86
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 16198
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Richter wrote: | | Even if Baltimore has the advantage in the head to head matchup, that doesn't make them the better team overall. |
Oh, so because the Patriots were more talented (I guess that's your argument?) they were more deserving? Does execution and coaching not count? How can the Patriots be so much better to be a "deserving" champion and the Ravens be a "crap team" if they lost to Baltimore twice?
| Quote: | | You love to point out the Pats' flaws, but did you actually watch the Ravens this season? Way, way more to point out there. |
I never said they were a great team. An elite team. Or a team without big flaws
| Quote: | | You have to actually evaluate teams on the whole of their performance, not just the ones you want to cherry pick. |
And the "whole of their performance" includes the post-season does it not? I'd say their wins - against "better" teams (Denver, New England, San Francisco) mean more and are more impressive than the Pats wins against Buffalo, Tennessee or the Jets. But I guess you don't see it that way. Is racking up wins against garbage teams (some of which were barely wins) in some way more impressive than beating top playoff teams?
| Quote: | | I have no problem with the 49ers if they win, they're a legitimate elite team. |
The 11-4-1 49ers are a "legitimate elite team" but the team they are losing to in the Super Bowl - The 10-6 Ravens - are a "crap" team. Yeah, I don't get that. Execution on the biggest stages, against the best teams - to me, that is the mark of a "deserving champion". Either of these teams would be worthy champions in my mind.
| Quote: | | If you see an elite team in the Ravens, and not just a team that's been riding an emotional high and playing on a hot streak, I really, really have to wonder what team you've been watching. |
I don't see an elite team. I don't see the "best" team in terms of talent. I don't see the most well coached team. I do see a team that is IMO deserving of being called Super Bowl Champions.
Calling the Ravens a "crap" team or saying they are undeserving of being a rightful champion is a bridge too far for me.
Like you said, we're probably never going to see eye to eye on this. I don't expect the most talented 53 man roster or best run organization to win the Super Bowl. Any team that makes the playoffs (with double digit wins) and can bring home the Lombardi is a deserving champion in my eyes. If the Pats had won the Super Bowl in 2006, I wouldn't have thought they were undeserving. The 2011 Patriots had huge flaws but I wouldn't have thought them undeserving.
Last edited by mcmurtry86 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:30 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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NinjaZX6R
Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 6785
Location: Columbus, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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last game of the season can't hold anything back
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| Tzimisce wrote: | I accidentally opened this topic while trying to get to the Titus Young topic.
Now I have AIDS.
Thanks a lot, NBT. |
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mcmurtry86
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 16198
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| The 49ers have really hurt themselves by wasting those 2 time outs |
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Richter
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 9319
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmurtry86 wrote: | | Richter wrote: | | Even if Baltimore has the advantage in the head to head matchup, that doesn't make them the better team overall. |
Oh, so because the Patriots were more talented (I guess that's your argument?) they were more deserving? Does execution and coaching not count? How can the Patriots be so much better to be a "deserving" champion and the Ravens be a "crap team" if they lost to Baltimore twice?
| Quote: | | You love to point out the Pats' flaws, but did you actually watch the Ravens this season? Way, way more to point out there. |
I never said they were a great team. An elite team. Or a team without big flaws
| Quote: | | You have to actually evaluate teams on the whole of their performance, not just the ones you want to cherry pick. |
And the "whole of their performance" includes the post-season does it not? I'd say their wins - against "better" teams (Denver, New England, San Francisco) mean more and are more impressive than the Pats wins against Buffalo, Tennessee or the Jets. But I guess you don't see it that way. Is racking up wins against garbage teams (some of which were barely wins) in some way more impressive than beating top playoff teams?
| Quote: | | I have no problem with the 49ers if they win, they're a legitimate elite team. |
The 11-4-1 49ers are a "legitimate elite team" but the team they are losing to in the Super Bowl - The 10-6 Ravens - are a "crap" team. Yeah, I don't get that. Execution on the biggest stages, against the best teams - to me, that is the mark of a "deserving champion". Either of these teams would be worthy champions in my mind.
| Quote: | | If you see an elite team in the Ravens, and not just a team that's been riding an emotional high and playing on a hot streak, I really, really have to wonder what team you've been watching. |
I don't see an elite team. I don't see the "best" team in terms of talent. I don't see the most well coached team. I do see a team that is IMO deserving of being called Super Bowl Champions.
Calling the Ravens a "crap" team or saying they are undeserving of being a rightful champion is a bridge too far for me.
Like you said, we're probably never going to see eye to eye on this. I don't expect the most talented 53 man roster or best run organization to win the Super Bowl. Any team that makes the playoffs (with double digit wins) and can bring home the Lombardi is a deserving champion in my eyes. If the Pats had won the Super Bowl in 2006, I wouldn't have thought they were undeserving. The 2011 Patriots had huge flaws but I wouldn't have thought them undeserving. |
Actually, that raises a good point. What about the 2005 squad? They got jobbed in Denver, but that was not a Super Bowl winning squad anyway. If they had gotten hot and won it, though, I definitely would have considered them undeserving. The point of the whole exercise is to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the current model fails to do so, in my estimation. |
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Sciz
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 12835
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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How do you not attack Ray Lewis inside on those plays?
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Shut up, NBT |
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SFPatsFan
Joined: 31 Oct 2010
Posts: 1941
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmurtry86 wrote: | | The 49ers have really hurt themselves by wasting those 2 time outs |
Kaepernick hurt the 9ers by throwing an uncatchable ball on 4th and Goal. |
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mcmurtry86
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 16198
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Richter wrote: | | mcmurtry86 wrote: | | Richter wrote: | | Even if Baltimore has the advantage in the head to head matchup, that doesn't make them the better team overall. |
Oh, so because the Patriots were more talented (I guess that's your argument?) they were more deserving? Does execution and coaching not count? How can the Patriots be so much better to be a "deserving" champion and the Ravens be a "crap team" if they lost to Baltimore twice?
| Quote: | | You love to point out the Pats' flaws, but did you actually watch the Ravens this season? Way, way more to point out there. |
I never said they were a great team. An elite team. Or a team without big flaws
| Quote: | | You have to actually evaluate teams on the whole of their performance, not just the ones you want to cherry pick. |
And the "whole of their performance" includes the post-season does it not? I'd say their wins - against "better" teams (Denver, New England, San Francisco) mean more and are more impressive than the Pats wins against Buffalo, Tennessee or the Jets. But I guess you don't see it that way. Is racking up wins against garbage teams (some of which were barely wins) in some way more impressive than beating top playoff teams?
| Quote: | | I have no problem with the 49ers if they win, they're a legitimate elite team. |
The 11-4-1 49ers are a "legitimate elite team" but the team they are losing to in the Super Bowl - The 10-6 Ravens - are a "crap" team. Yeah, I don't get that. Execution on the biggest stages, against the best teams - to me, that is the mark of a "deserving champion". Either of these teams would be worthy champions in my mind.
| Quote: | | If you see an elite team in the Ravens, and not just a team that's been riding an emotional high and playing on a hot streak, I really, really have to wonder what team you've been watching. |
I don't see an elite team. I don't see the "best" team in terms of talent. I don't see the most well coached team. I do see a team that is IMO deserving of being called Super Bowl Champions.
Calling the Ravens a "crap" team or saying they are undeserving of being a rightful champion is a bridge too far for me.
Like you said, we're probably never going to see eye to eye on this. I don't expect the most talented 53 man roster or best run organization to win the Super Bowl. Any team that makes the playoffs (with double digit wins) and can bring home the Lombardi is a deserving champion in my eyes. If the Pats had won the Super Bowl in 2006, I wouldn't have thought they were undeserving. The 2011 Patriots had huge flaws but I wouldn't have thought them undeserving. |
Actually, that raises a good point. What about the 2005 squad? They got jobbed in Denver, but that was not a Super Bowl winning squad anyway. If they had gotten hot and won it, though, I definitely would have considered them undeserving. The point of the whole exercise is to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the current model fails to do so, in my estimation. |
Sounds like you're advocating for a playoff-less system. Just let the best team in the AFC face the best team in the NFC.
Any other option (and even that has plenty of flaws) is going to result in just about every champion being "undeserving" due to the role that injuries, luck and matchups play in football.
The Ravens holding on and stopping the 49ers on 4 straight goal-to-go plays with 2 minutes to go in the Super Bowl is impressive and it's tough to imagine the 2012 Pats or Broncos having such a stand.
Last edited by mcmurtry86 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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