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Why Jon Hankins is the right choice for Saints at 15:
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Raves


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Raves, you're taking this FAR too personal. Put on your big boy pants, I don't like Hankins as a prospect, you'll survive. If you don't like Matt Elam as a prospect, that's fine and I agree he has some flaws that need I be fixed. You seriously need to stop getting so [inappropriate/removed] when people don't like OSU players, it's getting REAL old.


It could be any player, it just so happens this one is Ohio State. Really the only issue I have with Elam is he's prone to making boneheaded mistakes more than most causing penalties with how he plays the game, it's a flaw only because it extends drives, if this was back in the 60's he'd be an exceptional safety with no flaws in his game.

Now you talk about his flaws, I've agreed to some, he's not the greatest with his hands, could definitely use some more pass rushing moves, but when you say things that are incorrect then I'll defend him, whether he was an Ohio State player or a Florida player, or an Alabama player. If people remember correctly I was a HUGE fan of drafting Terrance Cody and he had legit weight issues and conditioning issues, not these made up ones you have for Hankins.

Is Hankins a player that could use some development? Definitely, as evidenced by those scouting reports he needs to work on using his hands better as well as developing more pass rushing moves instead of just a spin that's great for run stuffing but not great to rush the passer and they even suggested two moves in there that could be utilized by him with some coaching that would allow him to be a better pass rusher. But what both articles did say is he's a huge body that requires double teams due to his massive strength, has a surprising first step that keeps teams from pushing the LOS forward, even when he's doubled so he's at least keeping the point of the attack, and often collapses teh pocket. That's a lot more than we can expect from Bunkley.

Everyone thinks that every players we draft should be able to get 10 sacks, 10 interceptions, never let up a completion etc, but that's just unrealistic. What Hankins does do is he allows us to have a player that in a 3-4 that at NT will require double teams, will not get pushed back much like Bunkley did a majority of the year even in single blocking, and will let our outstanding young OLBs and DEs that prompted the move to a 3-4 more than anything else, and by that I mean Jordan, Hicks, Galette, and Tez as I think Payton saw how disruptive all 4 can be when on the field and they were best suited to put Jordan and Hicks at DE with Tez and Galette at OLB, especially with Tez' actual linebacker experience letting him drop back in coverage as well much like Shaun Phillips did when he was paired with Shawn Merriman.

I do still see a hole at NT, I think Bunkley will be average at best and Hankins plus several others from this draft could come in and be a much better option, as well as ILB next to Lofton. I think Hawthorne will be effective there this year, if we get a big body to take up blockers, but Hawthorne complained about having to deal with offensive lineman this year and he was signed to play the WLB not SLB position, WLB typically runs around lineman not shed them, so we need someone that will be more effective at shedding blockers as well as dropping back in coverage. That's not to mention the help we need in the secondary with 1 CB position, and possibly both safeties.

In the secondary there are few rookies that will be able to come in and start effectively, in the front 7 there are a couple.

At NT I like Hankins, I also like the guy from Southern Methodist but I fear he might end up a least 1st mid 2nd rounder by draft time as there are several teams looking for quality NTs in this draft and us changing to a 3-4 doesn't help that matter.

If we look to go ILB I really like Ogletree from Georgia, but I fear he's going to be a late 1st round pick as well. If we try Tez at ILB, which I think goes against what Payton wanted when making the decision to move to a 3-4 line-up, I feel that Jarvis Jones would be great in the 2nd or with a trade back into the late 1st round area, I think taking him in the early to mid 1st for a guy that might not play more than his first contract is a huge risk for the team overall. At that point I think we would be best suited to look at a guy like Ansah who has a lot of the same similarities as Aldon Smith, one real year of production, ridiculous athleticism, and would also be able to be drafted in a trade back.

If we are looking at the secondary I'll be honest I'm not really sold on any of the CBs to come in and start from day 1, including Dee Milliner. He's a great player, but I think we'll basically have to give him a pass for the first half of the season while he adjusts. Secondary wise I do like Matt Elam at SS quite a bit, even with his flaw of being overly aggressive, to the point where he knocked out his own teammate, but I like that out of him at the same time as well as his ability to cover. Personally I feel the secondary would be best filled with veterans rather than rookies considering how much young talent we've invested in lately that might just need the right leader. Remember our best year was when we kicked the wheels on Darren Sharper who set records.

Whether we draft Hankins or not will be decided on draft day, but I'm willing to admit his actual flaws, not all the ones you decide to list whether or not they are real. I think Hankins would help the team, but I'm not stuck on drafting him either.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on a phone so I'm not reading all that right now but I didn't "make up" his conditioning issues. OSU forced him to lose what? 60 pounds? And his weight had consistently fluctuated, I'm not an OSU fan and I've even hear about it. I'm done talking about this. Done. We've gone over everything 50 times.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
I'm on a phone so I'm not reading all that right now but I didn't "make up" his conditioning issues. OSU forced him to lose what? 60 pounds? And his weight had consistently fluctuated, I'm not an OSU fan and I've even hear about it. I'm done talking about this. Done. We've gone over everything 50 times.


His weight hasn't fluctuated, look at each year's total, it's consistently dropped. They had him him drop 60 lbs to have a scholarship for Ohio State and since then he's continually dropped weight down to his current 320/330 weight this season. If nothing else that shows a consistent pattern of working hard and accepting the fact he has to be in shape.

You can also argue that any player when given millions of dollars will become lazy. Yet many on this board want the LSU DE twins but their coach called them out for being lazy and selfish... wouldn't millions of dollars do the same for them? After his TRUE FRESHMAN year which he started, no coach has ever complained about Hankin's conditioning.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just praying Dion Jordan falls to 15. He has All-Pro written all over him.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
I'm just praying Dion Jordan falls to 15. He has All-Pro written all over him.



What scares me about Jordan is the fact that he was asked to be in coverage so much at Oregon. I still agree with out that he's got the skill set and potential but I don't see him coming in day one and being this feared pass rusher in the NFL.

I think due to what Oregon asked him to do Jordan's development as a pass rusher has been stunted a bit. I think he is extremely athletic and has a powerful punch for his size but it's not like he's a former DE like Aldon Smith was coming from college.

Maybe Jordan will eventually be what we both expect but I hope people understand that if we draft him there will be a developmental process with him and he's not going to tear up the NFL like Smith did. When Smith came out his pass rush game was about as developed as it could get.

Jordan is still an elite prospect though...

Don't know if you heard this yet there Harp but the word is a lot of NFL scouts are putting Jordan, Mingo and Ansah's potential ahead of the production of a guy like Moore, saying Moore isn't an elite athlete like the others.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that highly benefits a guy like Jordan actually, most of these 4-3 DEs that switch to OLB have zero coverage ability and are strictly zone coverage guys. Dion can come in and drop into zone, man up with TEs and develop his pass rush moves as well. He's going to be a monster from day 1.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
I think that highly benefits a guy like Jordan actually, most of these 4-3 DEs that switch to OLB have zero coverage ability and are strictly zone coverage guys. Dion can come in and drop into zone, man up with TEs and develop his pass rush moves as well. He's going to be a monster from day 1.


Oh I agree that it will benefit him, Also remember he's only played defense for a couple seasons so far (was a TE) but he will need to develop his pass rush but once he does, LOOK OUT!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
I think that highly benefits a guy like Jordan actually, most of these 4-3 DEs that switch to OLB have zero coverage ability and are strictly zone coverage guys. Dion can come in and drop into zone, man up with TEs and develop his pass rush moves as well. He's going to be a monster from day 1.


Oh I agree that it will benefit him, Also remember he's only played defense for a couple seasons so far (was a TE) but he will need to develop his pass rush but once he does, LOOK OUT!

I think Galette will offer a good pass rush whole Jordan develops some moves but I can see him getting 10 sacks his rookie year on athleticism alone.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
I think that highly benefits a guy like Jordan actually, most of these 4-3 DEs that switch to OLB have zero coverage ability and are strictly zone coverage guys. Dion can come in and drop into zone, man up with TEs and develop his pass rush moves as well. He's going to be a monster from day 1.


Oh I agree that it will benefit him, Also remember he's only played defense for a couple seasons so far (was a TE) but he will need to develop his pass rush but once he does, LOOK OUT!

I think Galette will offer a good pass rush whole Jordan develops some moves but I can see him getting 10 sacks his rookie year on athleticism alone.


Im all for the Saints landing a playmaker at 15... I don't think this defense 34 or 43 cannot afford to pass up a guy that can be a game changer!

I really don't care... DE, DT, NT, ILB, OLB, DB

Just give me a playmaker!
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you guys probably know by now.. I really like Dion Jordan. I will hate it so much if they pass on him and he's there.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:
As you guys probably know by now.. I reallylione Dion Jordan. I will hate it so much if they pass on him and he's there.


It's one thing to say, "this is who I want the Saints to take" but Its' something else entirely to talk about who you feel the Saints will take".

No specific position but everytime I hear a "so called" expert talk about what the Saints biggest need is they always talk about how the Saints have No one on defense that teams have to gameplan for... No difference maker or game changer.

I'm sure with the switch to the 34 the Saints are hoping Wilson, Galette, Jordan or Hicks can develop into that type of player but I doubt the Saints put all there hopes in it. I expect the Saints to target an athletic specimen at 15. I don't think they mind if some development is needed because they have guys onboard that can start and bring the rookie along slowly.

In this draft there are a number of those athletic freaks like...

Demontre Moore, Texas A&M
Barkevious Mingo, Louisiana State
Dion Jordan, Oregon
Ezekiel Ansah, BYU
Jarvis Jones, Georgia

Each one of these guys are special athletes and I expect the Saints to land one at 15.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Raves wrote:
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013jhankins.php

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/1/25/3915020/johnathan-hankins-2013-nfl-draft-scouting-report

Posted more than one link as I wanted it to be backed up. As you can see pretty much backs up more what we think than you think Harper. Sure his hands need work, but that's a DL coach's job. You use what he has already and then give him some better coaching he'll be a BJ Raji/Vince Wilfork/Pat Williams type for us.

The difference is, your biased and I'm not. I don't know why you're getting so offended, I just think Hankins is a project and I don't want a project. We're a win now team and I think a dominant OLB is much more of a need than a NT with some major flaws, Hankins in all honesty is practically identical to Jonathan Sullivan coming out. Conditioning flaws, bad hand usage and relies too much on his legs. I don't even want to touch Hankins, we're not going to agree on this so lets just agree to disgree instead of going in circles over and over again.


Hey Harp, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just because you don't agree or whatever doesn't mean you should attack that person. This "my way or the highway" and " I got to get in the last word" attitude just simply sucks. This is a major reason I don't post more on here. I just don't feel the need to get into these petty arguments.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcvoodoo wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Raves wrote:
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013jhankins.php

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/1/25/3915020/johnathan-hankins-2013-nfl-draft-scouting-report

Posted more than one link as I wanted it to be backed up. As you can see pretty much backs up more what we think than you think Harper. Sure his hands need work, but that's a DL coach's job. You use what he has already and then give him some better coaching he'll be a BJ Raji/Vince Wilfork/Pat Williams type for us.

The difference is, your biased and I'm not. I don't know why you're getting so offended, I just think Hankins is a project and I don't want a project. We're a win now team and I think a dominant OLB is much more of a need than a NT with some major flaws, Hankins in all honesty is practically identical to Jonathan Sullivan coming out. Conditioning flaws, bad hand usage and relies too much on his legs. I don't even want to touch Hankins, we're not going to agree on this so lets just agree to disgree instead of going in circles over and over again.


Hey Harp, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just because you don't agree or whatever doesn't mean you should attack that person. This "my way or the highway" and " I got to get in the last word" attitude just simply sucks. This is a major reason I don't post more on here. I just don't feel the need to get into these petty arguments.

Wait... What? Point out where I attacked him and where I showcased a my way or the highway attitude. I said he's biased with OSU players, hell willingly admit that and I said lets stop this argument and agree to disagree. Did you even read our posts? Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: I am in agreement with you, worm Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
In all honesty, looking at how this roster stacks up for a 34 I kinda wanna see how our current players pan out...

Jordan & Hicks on the ends should become a staple of the defense.
Bunkley has the ability to hold his own at NT.
Galette & Wilson could be terrors on the edge.
Lofton & Hawthorne seems like a stout tandem inside.

It's actually the secondary where my questions come in and I'd love to see a major shake up here. I know a lot of fans wanna see a pass rusher or nose tackle selected with that 15th pick but my personal preference is to trade down for picks and then select either a safety or cornerback. I really don't care which, just the one the new DC covets.

As I look at the front seven I'm comfortable going into next season giving these players there shot in this scheme but the back end I honestly don't feel comfortable with any of these guys!

Greer is aging and battles injuries the last few seasons.
Robinson is talented but extremely inconsistent!
White is young but in no way am I ready to call him a starting NFL corner.
Harper is way over paid and can't cover anything anymore.
Jenkins has all the talent in the world but his mental lapses and shoody tackling cost games.

I just can't find it to trust any of these guys... I think we need to start an overhaul in this secondary.

Desmond Trufant
Jonathan Banks
Kenny Vaccaro
Matt Elam
Eric Reid
Jonathan Cyprien
David Amerson

I don't care, I think any of them could help us... I just see our secondary as our biggest concern. Trust me, I get the want of the next Aldon Smith but who knows what Wilson and Galette will become in this scheme. Maybe we already have the next big thing at OLB but I doubt any of these cats in this secondary make the big jump next season.


I also think that the existing talent up front for a 34 defense will be more sufficient than the secondary will be. I too, think that trading down and picking up a second and later third (we trade our earlier third rounder) is the way to go. I would love to have Trufant and perhaps a safety as well, such as Cyprien who might be there in the late third round.
With the second rounder, I would seek an LOT such as Aboushi or Long. I do think Bushrod may be too expensive and I did not consider him to be elite, only competent.
The key for a NT is to have a push. I can see Hicks spending some time there, especially in passing downs. There may be some affordable free agent DE's much cheaper than Will Smith available as well this offseason.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: I am in agreement with you, worm Reply with quote

MPjeffryred wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
In all honesty, looking at how this roster stacks up for a 34 I kinda wanna see how our current players pan out...

Jordan & Hicks on the ends should become a staple of the defense.
Bunkley has the ability to hold his own at NT.
Galette & Wilson could be terrors on the edge.
Lofton & Hawthorne seems like a stout tandem inside.

It's actually the secondary where my questions come in and I'd love to see a major shake up here. I know a lot of fans wanna see a pass rusher or nose tackle selected with that 15th pick but my personal preference is to trade down for picks and then select either a safety or cornerback. I really don't care which, just the one the new DC covets.

As I look at the front seven I'm comfortable going into next season giving these players there shot in this scheme but the back end I honestly don't feel comfortable with any of these guys!

Greer is aging and battles injuries the last few seasons.
Robinson is talented but extremely inconsistent!
White is young but in no way am I ready to call him a starting NFL corner.
Harper is way over paid and can't cover anything anymore.
Jenkins has all the talent in the world but his mental lapses and shoody tackling cost games.

I just can't find it to trust any of these guys... I think we need to start an overhaul in this secondary.

Desmond Trufant
Jonathan Banks
Kenny Vaccaro
Matt Elam
Eric Reid
Jonathan Cyprien
David Amerson

I don't care, I think any of them could help us... I just see our secondary as our biggest concern. Trust me, I get the want of the next Aldon Smith but who knows what Wilson and Galette will become in this scheme. Maybe we already have the next big thing at OLB but I doubt any of these cats in this secondary make the big jump next season.


I also think that the existing talent up front for a 34 defense will be more sufficient than the secondary will be. I too, think that trading down and picking up a second and later third (we trade our earlier third rounder) is the way to go. I would love to have Trufant and perhaps a safety as well, such as Cyprien who might be there in the late third round.
With the second rounder, I would seek an LOT such as Aboushi or Long. I do think Bushrod may be too expensive and I did not consider him to be elite, only competent.
The key for a NT is to have a push. I can see Hicks spending some time there, especially in passing downs. There may be some affordable free agent DE's much cheaper than Will Smith available as well this offseason.


Actually in the majority of the 3-4 schemes, the key for a NT is to not get pushed off the LOS. Basically to take up 2 guys and stay at the LOS and if possible push back into the backfield.
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