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| Where will Ware rank at the end of his Career |
| 1st Ballot HOFer and GOAT, ahead of LT |
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15% |
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| 1st Ballot HOFer and Elite, behind LT though |
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69% |
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| HOFer and Elite, but not 1st Ballot and behind LT |
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15% |
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| Kevin Greene / Derrick Thomas level |
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0% |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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Football Mensa
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 621
Location: Texas via Louisiana and I love being Cajun...
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| buckwild wrote: | MH, Why do you beraid people to death with stats to prove your point rather than agree to disagree. We all have our own opinions, and just because they don't agree with yours doesn't make us wrong.
Debate is exchanging ideas to come to a conclussion on a particular topic, and not trying to prove your right and the rest of us are wrong. |
Hatter isn't capable of just leaving it at a disagreement. Opinions will never be changed by a good debate. The debate is what should be fun then both shake hands and walk away still insisting each is correct. Nothing wrong with that. Hatter can't stand to be challenged on his opinion with out taking shots. It's his m.o.. He is incapable of having a discussion. It's a pissing contest with him.
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 46945
Location: ROH Class of 14
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Football Mensa wrote: | | buckwild wrote: | MH, Why do you beraid people to death with stats to prove your point rather than agree to disagree. We all have our own opinions, and just because they don't agree with yours doesn't make us wrong.
Debate is exchanging ideas to come to a conclussion on a particular topic, and not trying to prove your right and the rest of us are wrong. |
Hatter isn't capable of just leaving it at a disagreement. Opinions will never be changed by a good debate. The debate is what should be fun then both shake hands and walk away still insisting each is correct. Nothing wrong with that. Hatter can't stand to be challenged on his opinion with out taking shots. It's his m.o.. He is incapable of having a discussion. It's a pissing contest with him. |
Not even a month and you think you know my m.o.? You haven't even began to debate with me. I've sat here and debated with the best on the forum and seen pages fill up with points and counter points on an argument that can't be won - I've become friends with rivals like Shockey and Art V from those debates. Don't step in if you're not willing to back it up and actually spend the time to have a debate.
Posting a few words and snide comments isn't a debate - counter the OP and then we can talk.
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Football Mensa
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 621
Location: Texas via Louisiana and I love being Cajun...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| MaddHatter wrote: | | Football Mensa wrote: | | buckwild wrote: | MH, Why do you beraid people to death with stats to prove your point rather than agree to disagree. We all have our own opinions, and just because they don't agree with yours doesn't make us wrong.
Debate is exchanging ideas to come to a conclussion on a particular topic, and not trying to prove your right and the rest of us are wrong. |
Hatter isn't capable of just leaving it at a disagreement. Opinions will never be changed by a good debate. The debate is what should be fun then both shake hands and walk away still insisting each is correct. Nothing wrong with that. Hatter can't stand to be challenged on his opinion with out taking shots. It's his m.o.. He is incapable of having a discussion. It's a pissing contest with him. |
Not even a month and you think you know my m.o.? You haven't even began to debate with me. I've sat here and debated with the best on the forum and seen pages fill up with points and counter points on an argument that can't be won - I've become friends with rivals like Shockey and Art V from those debates. Don't step in if you're not willing to back it up and actually spend the time to have a debate.
Posting a few words and snide comments isn't a debate - counter the OP and then we can talk. |
Your m.o. is the same. You did the same thing with the Austin debate because you disagreed. Plenty of posters in here will conversate even with others disagreeing. You don't. You can't. It's shot after shot after shot. I back up my comments. Still at the end of the day it's ok with me if we still disagree just like I said on Dave's post when Austin came up. I don't go hunting the next thread to throw another dart.
Then again maybe you're just a child if not try being a little more grownup when someone disagrees.
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 46945
Location: ROH Class of 14
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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You're welcome to disagree - but I'm not going to say "here's my argument, but I like you're argument, you're a nice guy so let's shake hands and agree to disagree" - I'm going to make my case, I'm going to counter yours, and look for you to do the same. It's a freaking football forum, not a tea party - I'm not afraid of ruffling feathers and don't get offended when others disagree.
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Football Mensa
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 621
Location: Texas via Louisiana and I love being Cajun...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| MaddHatter wrote: | | You're welcome to disagree - but I'm not going to say "here's my argument, but I like you're argument, you're a nice guy so let's shake hands and agree to disagree" - I'm going to make my case, I'm going to counter yours, and look for you to do the same. It's a freaking football forum, not a tea party - I'm not afraid of ruffling feathers and don't get offended when others disagree. |
You don't have to like the counter argument. Make your case and leave out the snarky comments that come with it and debate it like a grown man. It's a lot more fun to debate that way. It will usually get more posters involved when they know they don't have to get in a pissing contest. Which broadens everyones perspectives and gives them a chance to re evaluate their own opinion.
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 46945
Location: ROH Class of 14
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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So did you have a counter argument or were you just quoting my post for fun?
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TheStarStillShines
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 8974
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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The NFL Network ranked Taylor the #3 player of all-time. To rank Ware ahead of Taylor would mean he's a top-3 player all-time - or at least a top-10 player all-time. Do you believe that, MH? Heck, Ware isn't even a top-3 player of his generation.
And so you went with one writer to back things up and you use stats, but stats don't tell the whole story especially considering that Ware has had many more opportunities to rush the QB than Taylor.
During Taylor's career, the pass-run ratio went from a low of 51.17:48.83 to a high of 54.89:45.11 (1993). The highest discrepancy also occurred during LT's last season.
During Ware's career, the ratios are:
Low: 54.85:44.15
High: 57.10:42.90
So while you use a stat like "sack percentage", you conveniently left out number of sack opportunities. Teams are passing far more today than ever before, so sacks and pressures will naturally go up.
And if you're argument is solely based on stats, then we should consider Kerry Collins as the #12 QB of all-time, ahead of notable QBs like Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, Jim Kelly, Steve Young, and Y.A. Title. Stats have their limitation, especially when comparing over different eras. Also, how stats are gathered and what constitutes a tackle to a pressure, etc. are not consistent over time let alone across games.
Ware is a great player, but IMO he's not at the level of Lawrence Taylor.
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Football Mensa
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 621
Location: Texas via Louisiana and I love being Cajun...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| MaddHatter wrote: | | So did you have a counter argument or were you just quoting my post for fun? |
You're m.o. will never change...
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Desperado82
Joined: 20 Feb 2010
Posts: 37655
Location: Somewhere in the middle
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Football Mensa wrote: | | MaddHatter wrote: | | So did you have a counter argument or were you just quoting my post for fun? |
You're m.o. will never change... |
Gents, take it to PM or just ignore each other in the future.
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 46945
Location: ROH Class of 14
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Do I think Ware is currently a top 10 all time player? No - but that can easily change with a few more years, especially if he hits 20 sacks a second time.
And I gave you the exact numbers of passes they each faced - the run:pass ratio doesn't really matter when they're facing nearly identical number of passes.
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TheStarStillShines
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 8974
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ware will probably end up in the top-3 of OLBs all-time, assuming he can stay healthy. He could very well end up being the most productive OLB of all-time in terms of sacks. However, to me, to be considered the GOAT at one position means that player has to truly transcend his piers and all those before him. I just can't put Ware above Taylor because Taylor simply dominated games. I don't see that same dominating presence in Ware than Taylor.
Again, determining who is the GOAT goes beyond the numbers. For instance, many consider Joe Montana to be the greatest QB of all-time although many other QBs have better and more impressive stats. It's the same thing with people arguing that Romo is the best QB in Dallas Cowboys' history. Stats are great, but being recognized by your peers as the best and winning championships help cement one's legacy.
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 46945
Location: ROH Class of 14
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Football Mensa wrote: | | MaddHatter wrote: | | So did you have a counter argument or were you just quoting my post for fun? |
You're m.o. will never change... |
Seriously??? You quoted me and posted nothing here but I'm the bad guy? Whatever dude.
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TheStarStillShines
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 8974
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Football Mensa wrote: | | MaddHatter wrote: | | So did you have a counter argument or were you just quoting my post for fun? |
You're m.o. will never change... |
MH is one of the biggest homers on this board. He'll go at lengths to defend Cowboys' players. That's fine since we need people like that, but I can understand the frustration.
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WizardHawk
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 15659
Location: Hawkeye State
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Game has changed too much to even compare LT and Ware. Ware will end up being a 1st ballot HOFer and mentioned among the best at his position.
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TheStarStillShines
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 8974
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| WizardHawk wrote: | | Game has changed too much to even compare LT and Ware. Ware will end up being a 1st ballot HOFer and mentioned among the best at his position. |
I can agree with this.
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