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Where will Ware rank All-Time when it's all said and done?
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Where will Ware rank at the end of his Career
1st Ballot HOFer and GOAT, ahead of LT
15%
 15%  [ 2 ]
1st Ballot HOFer and Elite, behind LT though
69%
 69%  [ 9 ]
HOFer and Elite, but not 1st Ballot and behind LT
15%
 15%  [ 2 ]
Kevin Greene / Derrick Thomas level
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 13

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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Where will Ware rank All-Time when it's all said and done? Reply with quote

This thread in NFL Gen got me thinking about Ware (interestingly enough he's not even an option....) and how he'll finish his career and where he might rank at the end of the day.

I think the consensus #1 Pass Rusher / OLB is typically Lawrence Taylor, and obviously flipping to the T-2 this season could impact that, but up till now he has always been the man that Ware was compared to, whether it was by Bill Belichick, Randy White, or Bob Lilly.

So let's explore that comparison - as I personally think Ware has a great shot at taking over the throne that LT has sat upon for the last decade+.

  • Ware will be 31 when the season starts. After turning 31, LT only recorded 18 sacks the rest of his career.

  • Ware has been statistically proven to be better vs. the Run and in Coverage than LT was.

  • LT revolutionized the position and benefited from a 3-4 DE that had 15.5 sacks one year and 12 sacks another year in front of him - he rarely saw multiple blockers and faced far less complex schemes and much longer passes.

  • Taylor finished his career with 132.5 sacks - Ware currently sits at 111 and needs only 21.5 more sacks to surpass LT while having played 4 fewer seasons. Add in the 9.5 from LT's rookie season that didn't get counted and you're looking at 31 sacks in 4 seasons, or just over 7 per year.

  • You could argue that Sacks aren't the best measure of pressure, which is fair. Ware had 56 hurries in 2009, 20 more than the next best player. He added another 100 hurries the past two seasons, ranking 2nd in that metric in both years. And while Taylor forced 33 fumbles in his career, Ware is already at 32.

  • Sack rates are significantly lower now than they were in the ’80s. From ’84 to ’89, the league average sack rate was roughly 8.3%, compared to just 6.6% over the past six seasons. Holding pass attempts equal, there are only 4 sacks in today’s game for every 5 sacks during Taylor’s prime. More advanced blocking schemes, shorter passing routes, rules changes, and a host of other factors have simply made sacks less common in today’s NFL.

  • Of course, that’s holding pass attempts equal. But this paragraph might surprise you. From ’84 to ’89, the Giants faced 3,278 pass attempts in the 88 games in which Taylor played. Remember, those Giants teams generally were very good, winning 67% of those games and sporting an excellent rush defense. As a result, New York’s opponents passed frequently, and often in obvious passing situations. It’s true that teams generally pass more often in modern times, but the Cowboys the last six years have faced 3,515 pass attempts. As a result, Taylor’s Giants (37.25) faced more pass attempts per game during his prime than did the Cowboys of 2006 to 2011 (36.6 pass attempts per game).


Assuming that Ware can get even just 3 more years of production before retiring (seems extremely likely barring serious injury), he should easily surpass LT in every metric of pass rushing, run defending, and coverage. That leaves only the legendary/mythical perception that often accompanies players after they retire, awards given out by the Media/Fans (All-Pro / Pro Bowl), and a Ring.

Thoughts?
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Football Mensa


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia on Joe Gibbs.

Quote:
Gibbs is credited with inventing the single back, double or triple tight end set. He used it to neutralize Hall of Fame linebacker Lawrence Taylor, realizing that to successfully block him with a running back was impossible; an extra tight end and a tackle were required as well. The extra tight end provided additional protection for the quarterback.


When coaches invent offenses to neutralize a defender you can't give said defender any higher praise. Gibbs is also credited with using more athletic ot's because of Taylor.

Taylor had an ability to motivate his team as a vocal leader. Ware has never been vocal. You would see Taylor on the sideline emploring his teammates to play harder. I don't ever see Ware doing anything like this. Taylor was intense and emphatic with his sideline speeches again I don't ever see Ware do this.

Taylor's team won superbowls. Ware has one playoff victory in his career. Like I have said before lots of Dallas players on the current team have lipstick stats but nothing to show for it. Ware is one of those players. He might end up with better stats than Taylor but I take Taylor all day every day. Ware is Derrick Thomas like though Ware will be a first ballot hall of famer because of the hype these days.

And regarding pass attempts I think that is a little misleading. Dallas has been soft for a number of years and teams have been able to close them out by running when they need to.
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me227


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think at the end of the day, the only thing that will keep Ware from passing LT, is the legend of LT. I think Ware will pass him in Sacks but the legend of LT(great play, Thiesman injury, off the field activities, etc) will keep people from putting him above LT.

By the way the reason he wasn't included in the poll...
Quote:
Out of the players under 30 listed in the poll, who do you think is the most likely to be the greatest player of all time at their position when it's all said and done?

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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

me227 wrote:

By the way the reason he wasn't included in the poll...
Quote:
Out of the players under 30 listed in the poll, who do you think is the most likely to be the greatest player of all time at their position when it's all said and done?


Ahh - reading 101 - haha - darn that qualifier - I saw the 30 but missed the "under" and since he's 30 till June or July I assumed he should have been included. Thanks
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why just put him up against LT, because I think Reggie White ranks higher than Ware as well as LT.

Ware is a HOF player, but LT and Reggie White revolutionized their positions. You can throw whatever stats you want to throw out there, but Ware has had twice the oppurtunities to get to the QB as LT did in his day.
Plus who knows how many sacks that guys like Deacon Jones had in his day since sack wasn't even a stat back then. That's why I take stats with a grain of salt comparing one era to another.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckwild wrote:

Ware is a HOF player, but LT and Reggie White revolutionized their positions. You can throw whatever stats you want to throw out there, but Ware has had twice the oppurtunities to get to the QB as LT did in his day.
Plus who knows how many sacks that guys like Deacon Jones had in his day since sack wasn't even a stat back then. That's why I take stats with a grain of salt comparing one era to another.


Try reading - I've already proven that statement false

And there's more to being a great OLB/DE than just rushing the passer

And as I pointed out in the OP, I used LT b/c he's often considered the GOAT at the 3-4OLB position that Ware spent his entire career playing up till now.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Football Mensa wrote:
Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia on Joe Gibbs.

Quote:
Gibbs is credited with inventing the single back, double or triple tight end set. He used it to neutralize Hall of Fame linebacker Lawrence Taylor, realizing that to successfully block him with a running back was impossible; an extra tight end and a tackle were required as well. The extra tight end provided additional protection for the quarterback.


When coaches invent offenses to neutralize a defender you can't give said defender any higher praise. Gibbs is also credited with using more athletic ot's because of Taylor.

Taylor had an ability to motivate his team as a vocal leader. Ware has never been vocal. You would see Taylor on the sideline emploring his teammates to play harder. I don't ever see Ware doing anything like this. Taylor was intense and emphatic with his sideline speeches again I don't ever see Ware do this.

Taylor's team won superbowls. Ware has one playoff victory in his career. Like I have said before lots of Dallas players on the current team have lipstick stats but nothing to show for it. Ware is one of those players. He might end up with better stats than Taylor but I take Taylor all day every day. Ware is Derrick Thomas like though Ware will be a first ballot hall of famer because of the hype these days.

And regarding pass attempts I think that is a little misleading. Dallas has been soft for a number of years and teams have been able to close them out by running when they need to.


There's no denying LT revolutionized the position and teams had to react to it b/c they hadn't seen it prior, but they're using those same things today along with far stronger/complicated schemes against Ware.

LT vocal leadership I can't speak to - never was on the field or in the locker room with him. Same for Ware - sounds pretty weak though.

Taylor's team won more, but they were also STACKED teams. Putting team accomplishments on 1 player is asinine, especially when it's not even a QB. Terrible argument.

Not even going to try and understand how your last statement is relevant since I addressed it pretty thoroughly in the OP and proved that if they rushed the QB the same amount of times and faced the same number of passes per game, that Ware would be ahead of LT, even in today's NFL with stronger and faster OTs, more complicated schemes, and teams who are familiar with players like Ware.
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Baixis


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't know if I could put Ware ahead of LT. I do think he will blow him away in the stat categories, but LT ALWAYS had one thing that Ware has NEVER had - and that was his mean-streak attitude that, to me at least, just personifies a great defensive player (like Ray Lewis). I have always liked my great offensive players to be more humble and quiet (they do get all the glory, so no need for much extra attitude), but I have always liked my defensive players with some swagger and meanness and craziness (Singletary's eyes!). Ware has just never had that quality. I believe his stats will be the greatest (especially if we now put him at WDE and just let him go for the next 3-5 years!), but, in my mind at least, I don't think he'll ever be the greatest.
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's difficult to compare sacks since sacks were not an official statistic until 1982. As such, LT's sacks in his rookie season are not included in his "official" total.

Second, LT's second season was cut short by 7 games due to the players' strike.

As others have mentioned, LT revolutionized the OLB position. He's the main reason why players like Derrick Thomas, Kevin Greene, Clay Matthews, Demarcus Ware, and many others are playing today. This cannot be ignored.

LT was also an excellent run defender. I think you're overly underestimating his ability in this area. His all-around game allowed him to impact games like no other defensive player of his generation. While Ware is an excellent OLB, he hasn't had the same dominating impact on games like LT did.

At the end of the day, I think Ware makes the HOF. I'm not quite sure he's a first ballot guy just yet. He needs to win a DPOY and the team needs to have post-season success. Otherwise, I see him getting in, but being behind LT.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
It's difficult to compare sacks since sacks were not an official statistic until 1982. As such, LT's sacks in his rookie season are not included in his "official" total.


He had 9.5 and I accounted for that above

Quote:
Second, LT's second season was cut short by 7 games due to the players' strike.


How many of Ware's seasons were cut short or should have been due to injuries? Not to mention he lost a full offseason to his own lockout right as a new DC joined the staff to implement his scheme

Quote:
As others have mentioned, LT revolutionized the OLB position. He's the main reason why players like Derrick Thomas, Kevin Greene, Clay Matthews, Demarcus Ware, and many others are playing today. This cannot be ignored.


Revolutionizing something doesn't make you the GOAT - otherwise Hutson woudl be #1 and not Rice or Moss

Quote:
LT was also an excellent run defender. I think you're overly underestimating his ability in this area. His all-around game allowed him to impact games like no other defensive player of his generation. While Ware is an excellent OLB, he hasn't had the same dominating impact on games like LT did.


Actually I'm not - a Pro-Football-Reference and New York Times writer backs it up and - if anything - he would be biased FOR LT.

Quote:
At the end of the day, I think Ware makes the HOF. I'm not quite sure he's a first ballot guy just yet. He needs to win a DPOY and the team needs to have post-season success. Otherwise, I see him getting in, but being behind LT.


So for him to be the GOAT, in your mind, it requires the media to anoint him as such and for him to play on a good team?
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
He had 9.5 and I accounted for that above


Then you have to be clear and say that LT had 142 sacks when accounting for the 9.5 sacks.

Quote:
How many of Ware's seasons were cut short or should have been due to injuries? Not to mention he lost a full offseason to his own lockout right as a new DC joined the staff to implement his scheme


That's an awful rebuttal. In addition to missing 7 games due to the strike, LT missed 15 other games due to injury. And you could also use the same argument for LT - how many games did he play while injured? Just a really poor argument.

Quote:
Revolutionizing something doesn't make you the GOAT - otherwise Hutson woudl be #1 and not Rice or Moss


No it doesn't, but he was a dominant player. IMO, he was a more dominant player than Ware, week-in, week-out.

Quote:
Actually I'm not - a Pro-Football-Reference and New York Times writer backs it up and - if anything - he would be biased FOR LT.


Because a writer works for the NYT doesn't mean he is biased towards ex-Giants. Another poor rebuttal and sorry excuse. I watched LT a lot, having lived in the area when he played. He was an excellent run defender. Ware is, too.

Quote:
So for him to be the GOAT, in your mind, it requires the media to anoint him as such and for him to play on a good team?


LT is a three-time DPOY winner. He was also the AP NFL MVP winner in 1986. Really, the best rebuttal you have is to criticize the media? You can do better than that.

And like I said, LT dominated games - not just one or two games but game after game after game. His impact is greater than his stats.

Ware is a great player, but he's not at the same level as LT, and he doesn't dominate games every week. It's the one critique I have of Ware - that inability to take over games - and many games - like some of the greatest defensive players of all-time. He'll have a couple of great games, but there are times where he does disappear.

There's nothing wrong with Ware being put behind LT because LT was a special athlete and a really special player. He's one of the 2 or 3 best defensive players of all time. Ware, by the time he retires, will likely be considered among the top-20 to -25 defensive players of all-time.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:

That's an awful rebuttal. In addition to missing 7 games due to the strike, LT missed 15 other games due to injury. And you could also use the same argument for LT - how many games did he play while injured? Just a really poor argument.


Sorry but am I supposed to make up for the games he missed due to a strike? I mean it was a ridiculous argument int he first place. He missed part of a season due to a lockout - how do you even measure that over the course of an entire career?

We look at sacks per pass attempt which takes that out of the equation and Ware is ahead, we look at their play against the run, and Ware is ahead, and we look at their play in coverage and again Ware is ahead.

Those few games missed are lost in the grand scheme and I have no clue why you'd bring it up when discussing careers.

Quote:
No it doesn't, but he was a dominant player. IMO, he was a more dominant player than Ware, week-in, week-out.


Perception - numbers suggest otherwise. More hurries, more pressure, more forced fumbles, more sacks, more TFL's, etc.

Quote:
Because a writer works for the NYT doesn't mean he is biased towards ex-Giants. Another poor rebuttal and sorry excuse. I watched LT a lot, having lived in the area when he played. He was an excellent run defender. Ware is, too.


So then argue that - don't claim I'm biased or under rating him - and I'll take the educated opinion of a very well regarded writer who has worked for one of the more respected sites on the internet as pretty decent perspective, especially when the facts back it up.

Quote:
LT is a three-time DPOY winner. He was also the AP NFL MVP winner in 1986. Really, the best rebuttal you have is to criticize the media? You can do better than that.


Why didn't Ware win it already? B/c Media chose to give it to a lesser player on a better team.

Quote:
And like I said, LT dominated games - not just one or two games but game after game after game. His impact is greater than his stats.


That sounds like that "legend" status that we already discussed. Forget all the games he was shutout and remember random plays where you perceived domination - and as the years pass the legend grows and he becomes almost mythical

Quote:
There's nothing wrong with Ware being put behind LT because LT was a special athlete and a really special player. He's one of the 2 or 3 best defensive players of all time. Ware, by the time he retires, will likely be considered among the top-20 to -25 defensive players of all-time.


I'm not saying he will be, but that he is on pace to in all regards other than perception
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia on Joe Gibbs.

Quote:
Gibbs is credited with inventing the single back, double or triple tight end set. He used it to neutralize Hall of Fame linebacker Lawrence Taylor, realizing that to successfully block him with a running back was impossible; an extra tight end and a tackle were required as well. The extra tight end provided additional protection for the quarterback.


When coaches invent offenses to neutralize a defender you can't give said defender any higher praise. Gibbs is also credited with using more athletic ot's because of Taylor.

Taylor had an ability to motivate his team as a vocal leader. Ware has never been vocal. You would see Taylor on the sideline emploring his teammates to play harder. I don't ever see Ware doing anything like this. Taylor was intense and emphatic with his sideline speeches again I don't ever see Ware do this.

Taylor's team won superbowls. Ware has one playoff victory in his career. Like I have said before lots of Dallas players on the current team have lipstick stats but nothing to show for it. Ware is one of those players. He might end up with better stats than Taylor but I take Taylor all day every day. Ware is Derrick Thomas like though Ware will be a first ballot hall of famer because of the hype these days.

And regarding pass attempts I think that is a little misleading. Dallas has been soft for a number of years and teams have been able to close them out by running when they need to.


There's no denying LT revolutionized the position and teams had to react to it b/c they hadn't seen it prior, but they're using those same things today along with far stronger/complicated schemes against Ware.

Quote:
Not really. Walsh used the wco to neutralize the 3-4 just like today.



LT vocal leadership I can't speak to - never was on the field or in the locker room with him. Same for Ware - sounds pretty weak though.

Quote:
Did you ever attend a Giants training camp with Taylor and one with Ware ? I have. Ray Charles could see the difference. Weak = you got nothing better to say.


Taylor's team won more, but they were also STACKED teams. Putting team accomplishments on 1 player is asinine, especially when it's not even a QB. Terrible argument.

Quote:
Simms and Hostetler each one a superbowl. I guess your qb comment is asinine. The d carries those teams. Taylor was the undisputed leader of that team. Is Ware the same for Dallas ?



Not even going to try and understand how your last statement is relevant since I addressed it pretty thoroughly in the OP and proved that if they rushed the QB the same amount of times and faced the same number of passes per game, that Ware would be ahead of LT, even in today's NFL with stronger and faster OTs, more complicated schemes, and teams who are familiar with players like Ware.

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buckwild


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MH, Why do you beraid people to death with stats to prove your point rather than agree to disagree. We all have our own opinions, and just because they don't agree with yours doesn't make us wrong.

Debate is exchanging ideas to come to a conclussion on a particular topic, and not trying to prove your right and the rest of us are wrong.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckwild wrote:
MH, Why do you beraid people to death with stats to prove your point rather than agree to disagree. We all have our own opinions, and just because they don't agree with yours doesn't make us wrong.

Debate is exchanging ideas to come to a conclussion on a particular topic, and not trying to prove your right and the rest of us are wrong.


I don't berate people, I simply hold you accountable for your words. You claimed that Ware had twice as many sack opportunities as LT which was completely and utterly false and even talked about in the OP which you apparently didn't bother to read.

Don't exchange your ideas if you're not going to bother reading others.
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