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khodder


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Joined: 19 Dec 2005
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Location: New New York
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Champ, I beleive you have access to PFF, is there any chance you could provide us with;

Levi in 2011 - Pass blocking snaps, Sacks/Hits/Hurries allowed
Nate in 2012 - Pass blocking snaps, Sacks/Hits/Hurries allowed

Cheers
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DJ_Fka


Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 5154
Location: Brisvegas, Land Down Under
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading stats gets you into trouble.

I love how people who look at stats know what type of team, type of player we have etc.

Potter and Massie took their lumps, got better by the game, as you would hope.

We need guards, not tackles, unless Joeckel is there, exception only this year.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 12375
Location: the Arizona desert
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is the Guard prospects are better around #38 than the Tackles are.

It would make sense to address the position where the talent is richest.

Add Fisher + Warford and we don't have anymore needs on the OL. Let's give our QB's & RB's a chance to succeed.

Keim said he wants our OL to be more physical so there you go. Solid depth with Potter/Kelemete...
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khodder


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Joined: 19 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJ_Fka wrote:
Reading stats gets you into trouble.

I love how people who look at stats know what type of team, type of player we have etc.

Potter and Massie took their lumps, got better by the game, as you would hope.

We need guards, not tackles, unless Joeckel is there, exception only this year.


The only reason we don't need a Left Tackle is because Levi Brown is serviceable. Nate Potter was a good short term stop gap. But his deficiencies in the running game are not made up for with plus pass blocking. Real nice guy to keep around considering his contract and ability for a backup. But not a long term starter at all.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weren't you just touting Potter as a long term answer? I don't think it's fair to label Levi as serviceable until we see it. Still overweight and slow-footed. He'll be 29 next season coming off a full year being injured.

Oh and he makes 6.5M next season. Just sayin'...
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
Weren't you just touting Potter as a long term answer? I don't think it's fair to label Levi as serviceable until we see it. Still overweight and slow-footed. He'll be 29 next season coming off a full year being injured.

Oh and he makes 6.5M next season. Just sayin'...


1 - Maybe, but I have gone back and watched 4 games in the past few days (Had a long weekend here) and Nate is not impressive at all.

2 - 29 is not old
3 - He may be slow footed, but is still a better pass blocker than Nate Potter
4 - He is one of the best run blocking Left Tackle's in the National Football League
5 - 6.5M is not an ugly figure more than you would like, but when he is the best LT option a team has and he is a neutral cut, you hang on to him and you play him.
6 - "Not fair to label Levi Serviceable until we see it." We have seen it, for the past 5 years we have seen it. Look how our entire line fell apart without Levi. We upgraded at RT, our C and LG was the same, we made a lateral move at RG and without Levi the offensive line, mostly in the run blocker, but also in pass blocking fell right off the map.

We need to get off the back of a guy who is a solid player at the LT spot just because we picked him 5th overall. Take draft position out of it. Ignore where he was drafted; Levi is a top 20 Left Tackle in the NFL, serviceable.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Weren't you just touting Potter as a long term answer? I don't think it's fair to label Levi as serviceable until we see it. Still overweight and slow-footed. He'll be 29 next season coming off a full year being injured.

Oh and he makes 6.5M next season. Just sayin'...


1 - Maybe, but I have gone back and watched 4 games in the past few days (Had a long weekend here) and Nate is not impressive at all.

2 - 29 is not old
3 - He may be slow footed, but is still a better pass blocker than Nate Potter
4 - He is one of the best run blocking Left Tackle's in the National Football League
5 - 6.5M is not an ugly figure more than you would like, but when he is the best LT option a team has and he is a neutral cut, you hang on to him and you play him.
6 - "Not fair to label Levi Serviceable until we see it." We have seen it, for the past 5 years we have seen it. Look how our entire line fell apart without Levi. We upgraded at RT, our C and LG was the same, we made a lateral move at RG and without Levi the offensive line, mostly in the run blocker, but also in pass blocking fell right off the map.

We need to get off the back of a guy who is a solid player at the LT spot just because we picked him 5th overall. Take draft position out of it. Ignore where he was drafted; Levi is a top 20 Left Tackle in the NFL, serviceable.


We need to see it post-injury. He is below-average in pass-protection no matter what the advanced stats are projecting. If he was put in a spot where his protection could me masked and his run-blocking would be more valuable then I can get on board. If they continue to put him on the opposing team's #1 pass rusher then we're back to square-one.

If we take a Tackle at #7 I see no reason he'll be brought back seeing as how there has been no indication we'd move him inside.
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JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Weren't you just touting Potter as a long term answer? I don't think it's fair to label Levi as serviceable until we see it. Still overweight and slow-footed. He'll be 29 next season coming off a full year being injured.

Oh and he makes 6.5M next season. Just sayin'...


1 - Maybe, but I have gone back and watched 4 games in the past few days (Had a long weekend here) and Nate is not impressive at all.

2 - 29 is not old
3 - He may be slow footed, but is still a better pass blocker than Nate Potter
4 - He is one of the best run blocking Left Tackle's in the National Football League
5 - 6.5M is not an ugly figure more than you would like, but when he is the best LT option a team has and he is a neutral cut, you hang on to him and you play him.
6 - "Not fair to label Levi Serviceable until we see it." We have seen it, for the past 5 years we have seen it. Look how our entire line fell apart without Levi. We upgraded at RT, our C and LG was the same, we made a lateral move at RG and without Levi the offensive line, mostly in the run blocker, but also in pass blocking fell right off the map.

We need to get off the back of a guy who is a solid player at the LT spot just because we picked him 5th overall. Take draft position out of it. Ignore where he was drafted; Levi is a top 20 Left Tackle in the NFL, serviceable.


I'll agree that it makes much more sense to take a kid like Warmack and keep levi rather than taking Fisher and kicking Levi to the curb and still having no solution at guard.

Don't get me wrong, would still take Fisher but you see where I'm going.

If we wanted to go cheap and young, we could sport something like this...

Levi, Potter, Sendlein, Warmack, Massey

A lot of options, but regardless, I am not as prone to ditch Levi as I once was especially after the OT nightmare we faced this season. Could be worse than having Potter and Brown as options at LT.
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LuckyNumber11


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that Potter fits our system better. Levi is slow, way slow. At least we know that Potter will get in front of the guy every play for his quickness. Levi, a great run blocker, doesn't pass block worth anything. Potter has a plus 1 on Levi as far as pass blocking goes which is why I like Potter over Levi
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apollo14000


Joined: 07 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
I believe that Potter fits our system better. Levi is slow, way slow. At least we know that Potter will get in front of the guy every play for his quickness. Levi, a great run blocker, doesn't pass block worth anything. Potter has a plus 1 on Levi as far as pass blocking goes which is why I like Potter over Levi


While Potter has an edge over Levi as a pass protector, Levi has a HUGE edge over Potter as a run blocker. Overall, Levi is the better LT. But he's also expensive and coming of an injury so I hope Keim makes the right call on this one.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
I believe that Potter fits our system better. Levi is slow, way slow. At least we know that Potter will get in front of the guy every play for his quickness. Levi, a great run blocker, doesn't pass block worth anything. Potter has a plus 1 on Levi as far as pass blocking goes which is why I like Potter over Levi


Yet we are left with this; Levi allowed 56 QB (11.5 Sacks) pressures in 16 games last season. Nate Potter allowed at least 24 (7 sacks) in 6 starts plus the Green Bay game.

In terms of end product Nate is no better at protecting the Quarterback than Levi was.
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Boise&cards Fan


Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give me two great guards and some decent talks and I'll be happy.
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stchamp98


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Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question with Potter is can he develop into a league average or better LT? We know Levi can't, his developmental days are pretty well over. If Potter can, he has to be given serious consideration.
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apollo14000


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
The question with Potter is can he develop into a league average or better LT? We know Levi can't, his developmental days are pretty well over. If Potter can, he has to be given serious consideration.


That was Potter's main flaw coming out of college and a big reason why he dropped. Physically, there's just not a lot of potential there. He doesn't have the frame to add a lot more weight and strength, his athleticism is just ok, and he relies a lot of technique but that can only get you so far.

You also have to consider the type of scheme we run. I'm sure Potter would make a decent to good pure zone blocking LT but that's not what we run here so he's at a disadvantage.

I don't mean to bash Potter. Let's face it. He was a steal in the 7th round and if we got that kind of value with every late pick we'd be a very deep team.
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iRobot


Joined: 17 Nov 2011
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Location: Mesa, AZ
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@PFF
Arizona's Bobby Massie led the NFL in sacks allowed with 13, but none of them came in the final 8 games

Part of the reason why the staff has to not be too concerned over the right side at tackle..
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