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Rtnldave's mock 1-28-13
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Rtnldave


Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 2861
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
So we should trade Austin for a guy who might be productive in the NFL b/c he was semi-productive in the NCAA against far weaker talent? And you think because Harris and Coale and Beasley might be able to fill the void, we should trade him for poor value?

I'm sorry but I disagree - you're entitled to your opinion as it is your mock offseason, but I would be livid if this went down in real life



So, you would rather keep a WR on the team who is known to miss at least a 3rd of the season thus forcing our hand to play the aforementioned WR's. It isn't a question of might he get injured agian it is when.
And when he does what are you going to do then?

So in all fairness you are saying you would rather hang onto a guy that has pretty significant rade value at this point, that has posted some impresive numbers in the past but has not helped this team get to the next level? A guy who, if his hammies were not so brittle, would have driven to the ball in that game against the NYG and made the 3rd down conversion and we would have been playoff bound that year.

I'm sorry but I disagree. We have to start thinking of some of these guys replacements now. And, although he has been impressive stat wise, we are still no better as a team with his production. I think his value as a trading commodity in a draft that has ample opportunity to help us address our biggest problem is more important than to see if Austin can have another 1,000 yard season and we finish 8-8 again due to an inept O line and D line.
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Football Mensa


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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Location: Texas via Louisiana and I love being Cajun...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
Really not a fan of any of it from trades to FA to draft.

Austin is worth more than a 4th, Byrd isn't that good and Hamlin's is meh


You would be lucky to get a 4th for Austin.


Then don't freaking trade him - but thanks for your random opinion


Why not ? He doesn't play that much . He was an undrafted guy who somewhat made it. Maybe there's a 4th rounder in this years draft who could do better. He offers an occasional big play but I prefer steady over the occasional.

LOL @ random opinion. Humor me some more.


Does he have injury issues? Yes. But he also is one of the most productive WRs in the game when healthy. In fact he's done what only 2 WRs in NFL History have done in a 16 game period - but you in your infinite wisdom think some 4th round prospect will be better day 1?


Denarius Moore was a 5th rounder and Rod Streater was undrafted rookie in 2012. Both start for the Raiders and considerably cheaper than Austin. Austin has more catches and more yards but he had way, way more targets too. Streater in fact averaged more per catch than Austin by a little. Either one of those guys playing the number 2 wr opposite Dez would produce as much as Austin.

It's not that I hate Austin. I think he is inconsistent. When he is on he is a fabulous wr. He should be able to do more than he does and isin't worth what he is being paid. At some point Dallas needs to fix their salary cap situation and signing guys like Austin to such huge contracts is one of the reasons they are in the position they are in.

Austin will be 29 in June and Spencer is already 29. We haven't won squat with these guys. Fans talk about Garrett changing the culture in Dallas...well aren't these guys part of that culture ?
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Dboys88-82


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think you can use any part of the raiders passing game as an arguement. I want to be nothing like the raiders.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rtnldave wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
So we should trade Austin for a guy who might be productive in the NFL b/c he was semi-productive in the NCAA against far weaker talent? And you think because Harris and Coale and Beasley might be able to fill the void, we should trade him for poor value?

I'm sorry but I disagree - you're entitled to your opinion as it is your mock offseason, but I would be livid if this went down in real life



So, you would rather keep a WR on the team who is known to miss at least a 3rd of the season thus forcing our hand to play the aforementioned WR's. It isn't a question of might he get injured agian it is when.
And when he does what are you going to do then?

So in all fairness you are saying you would rather hang onto a guy that has pretty significant rade value at this point, that has posted some impresive numbers in the past but has not helped this team get to the next level? A guy who, if his hammies were not so brittle, would have driven to the ball in that game against the NYG and made the 3rd down conversion and we would have been playoff bound that year.

I'm sorry but I disagree. We have to start thinking of some of these guys replacements now. And, although he has been impressive stat wise, we are still no better as a team with his production. I think his value as a trading commodity in a draft that has ample opportunity to help us address our biggest problem is more important than to see if Austin can have another 1,000 yard season and we finish 8-8 again due to an inept O line and D line.


3rd of the season? He missed 6 games in 3 seasons

If he gets injured then you use the backups that you are suggesting we start anyway... why is it better to use your backups all season then have a much more talented player? To have that extra $3.5m? Okay - but what you get back better make up for that loss somewhere else and it's not. I mean you replaced him with a backup RB...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
I dont think you can use any part of the raiders passing game as an arguement. I want to be nothing like the raiders.


They play on a team that has been run worse than Dallas. Those two wr's can play. Palmer blows. Imagine either one of those guys in Dallas.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Football Mensa wrote:
Dboys88-82 wrote:
I dont think you can use any part of the raiders passing game as an arguement. I want to be nothing like the raiders.


They play on a team that has been run worse than Dallas. Those two wr's can play. Palmer blows. Imagine either one of those guys in Dallas.


Let me know when they put up 1713yards and 12 TDs in a 16 game period
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Football Mensa


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
Dboys88-82 wrote:
I dont think you can use any part of the raiders passing game as an arguement. I want to be nothing like the raiders.


They play on a team that has been run worse than Dallas. Those two wr's can play. Palmer blows. Imagine either one of those guys in Dallas.


Let me know when they put up 1713yards and 12 TDs in a 16 game period


Yet he couldn't make the catch we most needed vs the Giants a couple of years ago. Dallas is a team full of players with lipstick stats and nothing to show for it.
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MaddHatter


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Football Mensa wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
Dboys88-82 wrote:
I dont think you can use any part of the raiders passing game as an arguement. I want to be nothing like the raiders.


They play on a team that has been run worse than Dallas. Those two wr's can play. Palmer blows. Imagine either one of those guys in Dallas.


Let me know when they put up 1713yards and 12 TDs in a 16 game period


Yet he couldn't make the catch we most needed vs the Giants a couple of years ago. Dallas is a team full of players with lipstick stats and nothing to show for it.


Okay then - great argument - Miles has never had a clutch catch adn the entire team is full of chokers. Why don't we just fire the entire team, field a bunch of vet min guys for a few years, then start over? Obviously this choking thing is contagious and has infected everyone.
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GeneralDissaray


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
GeneralDissaray

There is more than just age,production, and personality considered when making a trade for a receiver. A couple other things that should be considered are injury history and contract. Two things not in Austins favor. Not saying its impossible to get a 4th for Austin or anything just saying these are other factors as well. Its a lot easier to give away a 4th for a potentially good receiver when his contract is relatively cheap.

Also you made brandon lloyd's stats look bad. which i guess they were at that point, but that can largely be contributed to poor quarterback play on the part of orton. He was four games into the season when he was traded and the season before he caught 77 passes for 1448 yards and 11 touchdowns. Thats where his value came from.


I didn't make anything look bad or great. The Rams traded for Lloyd at a low point. Do you think if he had close to 70 catches for 1400 yards and double digit td's that season, Denver would have traded him for near nothing?
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Rtnldave


Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 2861
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
Dboys88-82 wrote:
I dont think you can use any part of the raiders passing game as an arguement. I want to be nothing like the raiders.


They play on a team that has been run worse than Dallas. Those two wr's can play. Palmer blows. Imagine either one of those guys in Dallas.


Let me know when they put up 1713yards and 12 TDs in a 16 game period


Yet he couldn't make the catch we most needed vs the Giants a couple of years ago. Dallas is a team full of players with lipstick stats and nothing to show for it.


Okay then - great argument - Miles has never had a clutch catch adn the entire team is full of chokers. Why don't we just fire the entire team, field a bunch of vet min guys for a few years, then start over? Obviously this choking thing is contagious and has infected everyone.


Are you quite certain about the 6 games in 3 seasons? That seems a bit off to me. Dont have time to check it.

Point is, if we develop another guy now, we don't have to worry about him getting older or slower sooner or getting hurt again with his hamstrings. Sooner or later Hat, we have to start developing younger players and move on from some of the vets.

Again, this is all hypothetical. But you are living up to your username! Wink
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Football Mensa


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="MaddHatter"]
Football Mensa wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
Football Mensa wrote:
Dboys88-82 wrote:
I dont think you can use any part of the raiders passing game as an arguement. I want to be nothing like the raiders.


They play on a team that has been run worse than Dallas. Those two wr's can play. Palmer blows. Imagine either one of those guys in Dallas.


Let me know when they put up 1713yards and 12 TDs in a 16 game period


Yet he couldn't make the catch we most needed vs the Giants a couple of years ago. Dallas is a team full of players with lipstick stats and nothing to show for it.


Okay then - great argument - Miles has never had a clutch catch adn the entire team is full of chokers. Why don't we just fire the entire team, field a bunch of vet min guys for a few years, then start over? Obviously this choking thing is contagious and has infected everyone.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

I don't have a problem with the way u feel about Austin. I just happen to disagree . We aren't getting the production we should for the money he is being paid.
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GeneralDissaray


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rtnldave wrote:
You may already have 2 players on the team that can rotate and match Austin's production in Harris and Coale or even Beasley. If Hanna comes on this year he may help in that department.


Wow. You'd make a scary GM. I think we can get rid of Witten, because Hanna looked good making 3 catches in one game, and we have 3 other rookie free agent TE's. Harris had 17 total catches. That's about 1 per game. Austin is 6'2" and runs a 4.47 40. Those other guys are all under 6 foot, and don't run near as fast, plus they are slot receivers, not an outside receiver.

Austin has averaged the following over the past four years:
65 rec 970 yds 7.75td
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, I get it. He is producing big numbers. But what are we winning as a team? You don't trade Bryant because he is too young and hasn't peaked. He hasn't had a chance to compete for a title like Romo, Ware, Witten, Austin have.

In 1989 we had a similar situation. A team that was going nowhere and had 1 really good player. Herschel Walker. When Johnson traded him I was livid! I thought, how could you give away our BEST player????!!!!

But I soon realized that a player with big numbers on a team with many holes and no titles is a recipee for mediocrity.

You act like I'm saying get rid of him. I'm saying of the vets we have, we have to begin moving some while they have trade value. We need a younger O line and D line. We can draft multiple picks at these positions PLUS a #2 WR and a #2 RB. We have to do some horse trading and sacrificing. Now you KNOW we are not moving Romo, Ware or Witten. So who is left that will garner a decent pick.

If we are going to let two 1st round picks walk away with absolutley nothing to show for it (Jenkins and Jones) then we better begin to make it up in other areas like UDFA players that can garner us SOMETHING.

I just think this year's draft is too deep at our biggest positions of need not to do everything possible to get as many young, quality players as we can. ESPECIALLY if we are going to try to make a run with aging vets like Romo, Witten and Ware. We cannot wait 2 more years to build a 2 lines (offense and defense) thru the draft. We have to do it now.

The Austin thing was a small cog in a big offseason plan. It seems to be the only thing anyone is concerned with.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rtnldave wrote:
Look, I get it. He is producing big numbers. But what are we winning as a team? You don't trade Bryant because he is too young and hasn't peaked. He hasn't had a chance to compete for a title like Romo, Ware, Witten, Austin have.

In 1989 we had a similar situation. A team that was going nowhere and had 1 really good player. Herschel Walker. When Johnson traded him I was livid! I thought, how could you give away our BEST player????!!!!

But I soon realized that a player with big numbers on a team with many holes and no titles is a recipee for mediocrity.

You act like I'm saying get rid of him. I'm saying of the vets we have, we have to begin moving some while they have trade value. We need a younger O line and D line. We can draft multiple picks at these positions PLUS a #2 WR and a #2 RB. We have to do some horse trading and sacrificing. Now you KNOW we are not moving Romo, Ware or Witten. So who is left that will garner a decent pick.

If we are going to let two 1st round picks walk away with absolutley nothing to show for it (Jenkins and Jones) then we better begin to make it up in other areas like UDFA players that can garner us SOMETHING.

I just think this year's draft is too deep at our biggest positions of need not to do everything possible to get as many young, quality players as we can. ESPECIALLY if we are going to try to make a run with aging vets like Romo, Witten and Ware. We cannot wait 2 more years to build a 2 lines (offense and defense) thru the draft. We have to do it now.

The Austin thing was a small cog in a big offseason plan. It seems to be the only thing anyone is concerned with.


You are trading Austin fora 4th - that doesn't even compare to the Walker trade.

You want to advocate trading Ware for that type of a package and we can talk - at this point you're just dumping our #2 WR for a backup RB
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Rtnldave wrote:
Look, I get it. He is producing big numbers. But what are we winning as a team? You don't trade Bryant because he is too young and hasn't peaked. He hasn't had a chance to compete for a title like Romo, Ware, Witten, Austin have.

In 1989 we had a similar situation. A team that was going nowhere and had 1 really good player. Herschel Walker. When Johnson traded him I was livid! I thought, how could you give away our BEST player????!!!!

But I soon realized that a player with big numbers on a team with many holes and no titles is a recipee for mediocrity.

You act like I'm saying get rid of him. I'm saying of the vets we have, we have to begin moving some while they have trade value. We need a younger O line and D line. We can draft multiple picks at these positions PLUS a #2 WR and a #2 RB. We have to do some horse trading and sacrificing. Now you KNOW we are not moving Romo, Ware or Witten. So who is left that will garner a decent pick.

If we are going to let two 1st round picks walk away with absolutley nothing to show for it (Jenkins and Jones) then we better begin to make it up in other areas like UDFA players that can garner us SOMETHING.

I just think this year's draft is too deep at our biggest positions of need not to do everything possible to get as many young, quality players as we can. ESPECIALLY if we are going to try to make a run with aging vets like Romo, Witten and Ware. We cannot wait 2 more years to build a 2 lines (offense and defense) thru the draft. We have to do it now.

The Austin thing was a small cog in a big offseason plan. It seems to be the only thing anyone is concerned with.


You are trading Austin fora 4th - that doesn't even compare to the Walker trade.

You want to advocate trading Ware for that type of a package and we can talk - at this point you're just dumping our #2 WR for a backup RB


I would be open to that as well. Actually, that is my 1st option for this offseason. As for dumping him for a backup RB, you could look at it that way. I see us stocking up on picks and having some flexibility. I also see us opening a window for another WR to develop. It can't be that difficult. I mean, we sign Robinson for 1 year, he was kicked all around the league before that and look what he did for us numbers wise. His production here netted him a hefty contract so I'm not too worried about replacing Austins production if a guy like Robinson could come in off another team's practice squad (practically) and produce.
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