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ugLymayNe


Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 12358
Location: Wisconsin
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDN40 wrote:
Money aside - which is a deal breaker hands down - our secondary is not the problem. Not Williams, Sheilds, Woodson, Revis or Superman can cover for 6 seconds every pass play. Whether it be by DL or OLB or smoke and mirrors, we need to sack the quarterback. Its pretty much that simple.

Trivia - Who are Cary Williams and Cory Graham ?


People who pay attention to more than just the Packers know that answer...not that hard...Laughing

Trivia - What team is top 5 QB sacks?


The problem with this defense seems to be staying healthy at key positions, ILB, and in my opinion Capers gets too cute some times. Don't get me wrong - he doesn't deserve to get fired - but if I see a DB blitz with a mismatch in coverage vs a good QB again I might go irate(see Hawk covering Vernon Davis down the seam in the playoffs). Getting Bishop back will do wonders, and so will Perry and Worthy with a year of experience under their belts.
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byzr


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 3063
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

persiandud wrote:
byzr wrote:
Pack4life7 wrote:
The more I think about this, the more Thompson needs to get on the phone and get this done.

1. We are going to be picking 24th or later as long as Aaron is our QB and TT is our GM. We are a contender already but clearly the D is lacking something. Revis is an elite talent right now and the only shut down CB in the NFL. I see no way of us acquiring this kind of talent short of trading tons of picks to move up in the draft to get a prospect that could A. Miss or B. take 2-3 years to develop into what we need.

2. Revis is the cheapest he will ever be right now coming off of an ACL tear. 1st and a 3rd can get it done for the best player in the league at his position. Who else can you say that about?

3. He is going to want to get paid which is where it gets tricky factoring in Rodgers and Matthews extensions but I think we can find a way to make this work.

We are a player away from the Super Bowl IMO and Revis is that player. San Fran isn't getting any worse and I think we need this.


Revis hasn't been getting the Jets to the superbowl the past couple years. He's just one player if we get some impact players on the d-line Williams, Shields, and Hayward will be looking like studs!!!


you think the price to get him is cheap. what about the price to keep him after he has another shut down year and his contract isn't up to his standard. there are rumors he wants QB money and that's TO crazy. he's just to much of head case IMO to be a Packer.


Mark Sanchez.


my point is that one player isn't going to get us anywhere. we've got enough elite guys on our team. we need the depth and good not great players. adding Revis hamstrings us into either losing some of our upcoming FAs or depleting our depth.
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2Bigby0


Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 626
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

persiandud wrote:
2Bigby0 wrote:
If it's not broken, why fix it? Our secondary is young and ascending. Tramon is still rock solid. Shields, Hayward and House all have the arrow pointing up. I see no reason why we would acquire Revis when we have pressing issues on this team.

As for John Jenkins, he's the guy I want really badly on our defense. I just don't see him slipping past Indy at 24. But who knows what can happen during the draft? He's the 4th ranked interior D-Lineman and it could happen.


LOL. Tramon hasn't played like a Pro Bowler since he got paid. Does he care anymore? Doesn't care about tackling, doesn't care about covering Crabtree. You can point to how he did well against Brandon Marshall, but I didn't see him on an island. Tramon MAYBE...maybe cracks the top ten in cornerbacks in this league.

Revis is the only shutdown corner in the NFL. Doesn't even need safety help. Our secondary would be sooooooooooo nasty


Who says Tramon will even be our #1 CB this year? There is an open competition at CB this year. Maybe it's Hayward and maybe it's Shields... Maybe competition brings out the best in Tramon.

Williams wasn't All-Pro this year and it certainly wasn't his best season either. But he's rock solid. In the NFL, if your CB's are needed to be tacklers on a consistent basis, your defense is in trouble no matter who is playing corner for you.

Who is to say Revis is the player he was 2 seasons ago? It's a big risk for the guy.
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TheGreatZepp


Joined: 27 Jan 2010
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Location: Brookfield, WI
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2Bigby0 wrote:
Williams wasn't All-Pro this year and it certainly wasn't his best season either. But he's rock solid. In the NFL, if your CB's are needed to be tacklers on a consistent basis, your defense is in trouble no matter who is playing corner for you.
I can't agree with this. There have been so many great defenses that relied on physical tackling corners. Being a fan of an NFC North team should make one particularly keen as Winfield, Tillman and Woodson were all among the best corners in the game and could tackle like linebackers. Strong corners allow for so much scheme and play flexibiity and add a factor to the defense's physical toughness.
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2Bigby0


Joined: 02 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreatZepp wrote:
2Bigby0 wrote:
Williams wasn't All-Pro this year and it certainly wasn't his best season either. But he's rock solid. In the NFL, if your CB's are needed to be tacklers on a consistent basis, your defense is in trouble no matter who is playing corner for you.
I can't agree with this. There have been so many great defenses that relied on physical tackling corners. Being a fan of an NFC North team should make one particularly keen as Winfield, Tillman and Woodson were all among the best corners in the game and could tackle like linebackers. Strong corners allow for so much scheme and play flexibiity and add a factor to the defense's physical toughness.


It's a completely different style of defense. In the Tampa 2, that's how your corners must play. That being said, you're comparing Tramon Williams to three great cornerbacks. Few have the all around talents of Woodson, Winfield and Tillman. Again, Tramon is a starting caliber corner in the NFL. We should be relying on our secondary to make plays through the air and our front seven to take care of the ground game. That's how defenses are successful.
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deathstar


Joined: 06 Jun 2012
Posts: 561
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tramon has not been rock solid. Last year he played like just a guy - who couldn't tackle.

And to the guy who thinks corners shouldn't be relied on to tackle - say that to San Francisco.
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2Bigby0


Joined: 02 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deathstar wrote:
Tramon has not been rock solid. Last year he played like just a guy - who couldn't tackle.

And to the guy who thinks corners shouldn't be relied on to tackle - say that to San Francisco.


San Francisco's corners are not relied on to make tackles. Their linebackers are.

Do our corners miss more tackles? Sure, but they make just as many tackles as the 49ers corners do.

Our front seven is the problem, not our secondary.
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Kampman74


Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if we were to do it, what would it cost?

A first and a second? Then cutting Tramon and Woodson probably to free up money. I guess I actually wouldn't mind doing, mostly cause it is not going to happen. Laughing Laughing But think of the trickle down effect, Capers is free to move his safeties around more cause of Revis shuting down one guy. Crabtree gave us a lot of problems in the playoff game, imagine taking him out the game. That's it one less guy to worry about by getting one play. That buys time for Clay to get more sacks and more defenders in the box to stop the run. Heck with Shields and Heyward you might only need one safety.
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TheGreatZepp


Joined: 27 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kampman74 wrote:
Well if we were to do it, what would it cost?

A first and a second? Then cutting Tramon and Woodson probably to free up money. I guess I actually wouldn't mind doing, mostly cause it is not going to happen. Laughing Laughing But think of the trickle down effect, Capers is free to move his safeties around more cause of Revis shuting down one guy. Crabtree gave us a lot of problems in the playoff game, imagine taking him out the game. That's it one less guy to worry about by getting one play. That buys time for Clay to get more sacks and more defenders in the box to stop the run. Heck with Shields and Heyward you might only need one safety.
Crabtree isn't THAT good. We shouldn't need a Revis calibur corner to shut him down. There's only a handful of receivers that are on that highest tier.
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2Bigby0


Joined: 02 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreatZepp wrote:
Kampman74 wrote:
Well if we were to do it, what would it cost?

A first and a second? Then cutting Tramon and Woodson probably to free up money. I guess I actually wouldn't mind doing, mostly cause it is not going to happen. Laughing Laughing But think of the trickle down effect, Capers is free to move his safeties around more cause of Revis shuting down one guy. Crabtree gave us a lot of problems in the playoff game, imagine taking him out the game. That's it one less guy to worry about by getting one play. That buys time for Clay to get more sacks and more defenders in the box to stop the run. Heck with Shields and Heyward you might only need one safety.
Crabtree isn't THAT good. We shouldn't need a Revis calibur corner to shut him down. There's only a handful of receivers that are on that highest tier.


Crabtree is that good. He proved it over the course of the season and he's proved it in the postseason. This was a big year for Crabtree and he's solidified himself at the number one target in San Francisco. A very good offense at that as well.
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TheGreatZepp


Joined: 27 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2Bigby0 wrote:
TheGreatZepp wrote:
Kampman74 wrote:
Well if we were to do it, what would it cost?

A first and a second? Then cutting Tramon and Woodson probably to free up money. I guess I actually wouldn't mind doing, mostly cause it is not going to happen. Laughing Laughing But think of the trickle down effect, Capers is free to move his safeties around more cause of Revis shuting down one guy. Crabtree gave us a lot of problems in the playoff game, imagine taking him out the game. That's it one less guy to worry about by getting one play. That buys time for Clay to get more sacks and more defenders in the box to stop the run. Heck with Shields and Heyward you might only need one safety.
Crabtree isn't THAT good. We shouldn't need a Revis calibur corner to shut him down. There's only a handful of receivers that are on that highest tier.


Crabtree is that good. He proved it over the course of the season and he's proved it in the postseason. This was a big year for Crabtree and he's solidified himself at the number one target in San Francisco. A very good offense at that as well.
What does he do so well that puts him in that tier of receivers?
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deathstar


Joined: 06 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2Bigby0 wrote:
deathstar wrote:
Tramon has not been rock solid. Last year he played like just a guy - who couldn't tackle.

And to the guy who thinks corners shouldn't be relied on to tackle - say that to San Francisco.


San Francisco's corners are not relied on to make tackles. Their linebackers are.

Do our corners miss more tackles? Sure, but they make just as many tackles as the 49ers corners do.

Our front seven is the problem, not our secondary.


I guess we disagree, then. Any good defense needs corners who can clean up a play that gets strung out. SF's corners are expected to do that as much as anyone else on their defense. This is 2013 - the game is played from sideline to sideline.
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persiandud


Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 906
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crabtree has played like a top tier receiver this year. And some of the best WRs in the league are in our division. That being said, we've swept our division 2 years in a row. The reason I find Revis appealing is just as Kampman74 has mentioned above; negating the other team's best receiver and using that one extra DB for run support/blitzing/etc. Capers is known for his creative zone blitzes and any extra flexibility is a huge plus. Our safeties could be Woodson/Burnett/McMillian/draft pick next year. Not an elite bunch, but when you can commit more of those guys to get their hands dirty it makes your defense much better (they fit the mold as well, which is why I want a rangy safety with great coverage skills in the draft). The Jets have been in the top ten in total defense the past 4 years and the advantage Revis gives them cannot be understated.

Speaking of run support...I believe that any good run defense has to have a certain mentality. And when anyone, secondary included, doesn't commit to getting physical it's hard to maintain that mentality. Tramon isn't a complete CB I'd say. I think he has great man coverage skills, but sometimes you have to hit people. As a segue....Revis is a lot better in run support. He's not great, but he's good. As for what I'd give the Jets...a first and Tramon. I think that's fair.

But who am I kidding, this is TT we're talking about.
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2Bigby0


Joined: 02 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreatZepp wrote:
2Bigby0 wrote:
TheGreatZepp wrote:
Kampman74 wrote:
Well if we were to do it, what would it cost?

A first and a second? Then cutting Tramon and Woodson probably to free up money. I guess I actually wouldn't mind doing, mostly cause it is not going to happen. Laughing Laughing But think of the trickle down effect, Capers is free to move his safeties around more cause of Revis shuting down one guy. Crabtree gave us a lot of problems in the playoff game, imagine taking him out the game. That's it one less guy to worry about by getting one play. That buys time for Clay to get more sacks and more defenders in the box to stop the run. Heck with Shields and Heyward you might only need one safety.
Crabtree isn't THAT good. We shouldn't need a Revis calibur corner to shut him down. There's only a handful of receivers that are on that highest tier.


Crabtree is that good. He proved it over the course of the season and he's proved it in the postseason. This was a big year for Crabtree and he's solidified himself at the number one target in San Francisco. A very good offense at that as well.
What does he do so well that puts him in that tier of receivers?


85 Rec 1105 Yds 9 touchdowns.

Played consistently and produced with two seperate quarterbacks.

Competed against Manningham, Moss, and VD for targets on a run first team.

Had the 49ers passed more, Crabtree would have had an even bigger season. Make no mistake about it, Crabtree is a top flight receiver in the league.
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TheGreatZepp


Joined: 27 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2Bigby0 wrote:
TheGreatZepp wrote:
2Bigby0 wrote:
TheGreatZepp wrote:
Kampman74 wrote:
Well if we were to do it, what would it cost?

A first and a second? Then cutting Tramon and Woodson probably to free up money. I guess I actually wouldn't mind doing, mostly cause it is not going to happen. Laughing Laughing But think of the trickle down effect, Capers is free to move his safeties around more cause of Revis shuting down one guy. Crabtree gave us a lot of problems in the playoff game, imagine taking him out the game. That's it one less guy to worry about by getting one play. That buys time for Clay to get more sacks and more defenders in the box to stop the run. Heck with Shields and Heyward you might only need one safety.
Crabtree isn't THAT good. We shouldn't need a Revis calibur corner to shut him down. There's only a handful of receivers that are on that highest tier.


Crabtree is that good. He proved it over the course of the season and he's proved it in the postseason. This was a big year for Crabtree and he's solidified himself at the number one target in San Francisco. A very good offense at that as well.
What does he do so well that puts him in that tier of receivers?


85 Rec 1105 Yds 9 touchdowns.

Played consistently and produced with two seperate quarterbacks.

Competed against Manningham, Moss, and VD for targets on a run first team.

Had the 49ers passed more, Crabtree would have had an even bigger season. Make no mistake about it, Crabtree is a top flight receiver in the league.
ok so we're playing the stats game...
Calvin Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Demaryius Thomas
Vincent Jackson
Dez Bryant
Reggie Wayne
Wes Welker
Roddy White
A.J. Green
Julio Jones
Steve Smith
Marques Colston
Brian Hartline
Eric Decker
Victor Cruz
Greg Jennings
Jordy Nelson
Percy Harvin
Stevie Johnson
Dwayne Bowe
Jeremy Maclin
Hakeem Nicks


That's without...
Pierre Garcon
Cecil Shorts
Justin Blackmon
Mike Wallace
DeSean Jackson
Santonio Holmes
James Jones
Miles Austin
Antonio Brown
Sidney Rice
Santana Moss
Nate Washington
Brandon Lloyd
Torrey Smith
Anquan Boldin
Mike Williams

A lot of receivers can be productive, I refuse to believe a 1,000 yds and 10 td's stat line is what makes a receiver great.

There are at minimum 20 WR's that are more difficult to defend for a variety of reasons then Crabtree. If you feel you need Revis to contain a top 30? wide receiver there really is no hope for defenses.
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