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driftwood


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 6097
Location: Milwaukee
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: team leadership... Reply with quote

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/thrown-into-question-n58fedi-187970011.html

this article came up today (posted in AR's appreciation thread as well)... but i feel there is a significance with this that can bring up more discussion outside of just Rodgers... & i also have a lot to talk about on this topic as well

what i ask of you is to read this article as unbiased as you possibly can (maybe pretend its not about the packers at all if you will). & then share your thoughts.
__________________________________________________________

but first here are mine,

after reading this article it really got me thinking about the type of players & personalities on this team... & the way they have gone about business the last couple seasons (post superbowl)

i for one am very nervous about what the future holds for this team pending certain changes... if you were to ask me 2 years ago what i thought i would have been sky high on the endless possibilities this team could accomplish. fast forward to January 2013 & my tone is very different...

2 embarrassing early exits from the playoffs in as many years have really got me wondering how big the Packers window really is & also what changes must be made to get another trophy in the case under the current regime

now normally these type of articles are written & many times there is no real story, but i think what Rob pointed out in this article is something other writers might be scared to do & that's calling out Rodgers & his leadership... & i think Rob Reischel has a valid question

does this team lack accountability? do they lack leadership from the core players?

this team really doesn't have any outspoken personalities... outside of Finley who we constantly chastise for it... & we assume that Rodgers & Woodson tend to be the guys that the locker room gravitates towards (Woodson specifically with his voice of reasoning type of attitude)

but i ask myself now if that's enough... i feel like maybe the leadership from the players is adequate but i start to question the head coach more than i have in the past...

i think there may be a deeper issue than the fragile personality of Rodgers (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but its something to take into account when things don't go well). i have a friend who is very similar, i like to say hes a 'mental midget' when it comes to any type of criticism/pressure but hes incredibly talented at what he does

i'm personally starting to wonder how fragile our head coaches personality is more than anything (especially how he responds to some valid questions by media members during press conferences)

MM seems to be well liked by his players... seems to be a players coach by all accounts (but not in the 'rah rah' type way)... rather from my perspective i think it has a lot to do with how lenient he is with many of the players especially the veterans... giving maybe a little more freedom than needs to be given.

i remember when he took over & Favre was obviously on the trailing end of his career statistically & physically... but once MM came to town & started doing things his way (buckled down what Mike Sherman let Brett get away with)... & he was able to get Favre's stubbornness in check, #4 went on to have a really really good year ('07)

MM likes to talk about having his 'hand on the pulse' of this team early in his tenure but i'm starting to think he might be losing it a little

i'm actually starting to think he needs to give a big gut check to his self & then the players on this team going into next season (something Rob mentioned in his interview about this article today on the radio)

start holding players (& coaches) accountable on all sides of the ball (not just AR & the offense)... & maybe even take some of the privileges that AR has been granted in this offense away & get a tighter grip on his play-calling

now with this said i certainly don't think someone like Rodgers is becoming a malcontent by any means (hes always seemed to be a little sensitive once we have learned more about him) but that doesn't make him a bad person or even a bad leader... but it does raise question about how much he can handle as far as responsibility of his role as a QB/leader

the type of expectations we put on Rodgers are astronomical, so i wonder what would change if we take some pressure off his shoulders & get back to basics on offense specifically with game planning & play calling (& also get back to basics on defense as well which is another argument)

i have more to add but i already have a wall of text that i don't want to elongate right now, so ill contribute more once others reply.
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smetana34


Joined: 14 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to see that interview with bishop but of all people to interview why the guy who's missed all season?

If I was Rodgers id be a little edgy too. He and clay are the only two who show up every week. Who else can we count in every week? They need some help.
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driftwood


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
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Location: Milwaukee
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smetana34 wrote:
I'd have to see that interview with bishop but of all people to interview why the guy who's missed all season?



they were curious as to how hes rehab was going & how he felt about the upcoming 2013 season... it was a very harmless interview & iirc is still on packers.com (although i really do like bishops attitude when asked some of those questions... really seems like he want to explode next year & take out some aggression which this D needs badly)

smetana34 wrote:


If I was Rodgers id be a little edgy too. He and clay are the only two who show up every week. Who else can we count in every week? They need some help.


its obvious #12 & #52 are the elites players on this team, but that was never in question... & they need some help by the supporting cast i agree... but i think MM can certainly do some stuff to ease things on offense & complicate things lesser for some of the young players that seemingly are heavily relied on for big roles
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General_Bean


Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where were you when I was getting devoured in the "this team lacks fire" thread?

Coulda used you then
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driftwood


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

General_Bean wrote:
Where were you when I was getting devoured in the "this team lacks fire" thread?

Coulda used you then


heh, sometimes i totally miss out on threads
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General_Bean


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but umm I'll add my 2 cents for what it's worth....

After reading the article and thinking about it for a couple days my observations were that this team lacks something that motivates them. Rodgers and Mathews have it personally, but I dont believe the rest of the team sets themselves to that kind of standards. I feel Rodgers tries to get to them in a quiet type of way, but they won't do the work themselves or take personal accountability for their performance.

I'm in the boat for firing Dom not because of this game or years prior, but because the staff should know that even after a 13-3, 15-1 season, bouncing out the first round isn't acceptable and will not be tolerated. call me crazy, but I think accountability needs to be held by the whole organization.
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driftwood


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

General_Bean wrote:
call me crazy, but I think accountability needs to be held by the whole organization.


I agree to a point... i think the accountability needs to specifically come from the coaches & it starts with McCarthy

but i'm unsure of how much someone like TT can really do outside of canning/hiring someone... imo i think TT is best at scouting/drafting/contracting... but i wouldn't think hes the one that would be relied on to send a 'message' & i'm ok with that

now im not saying anyone needs to be fired... i think the coaching staff is fine for right now (another post season meltdown will change my thoughts on that though)

honestly, i just really want to see some accountability held on the players & that starts immediately heading into OTA/camp... i think 2 years removed from winning the Superbowl the message of urgency needs to set in & that message needs to be delivered by McCarthy.

now whether he sends that message by benching players, or limiting reps game time, or being direct with coaches if a group of players aren't performing to par or whatever... he needs to make sure the message direct & he needs to get the players to buy into some type of urgency

i just feel like some of the leashes are getting a little too long & players may be taking advantage of them... but i also feel that some players are becoming complacent & its up tot he coaches to find out who they are & make sure it stops happening

& if the coaches cant get it figured out then that's when i think firings start becoming a possibility

i get that its not easy to go back to the superbowl & i understand that there are 31 other teams (& only a handful of teams realistically have a shot by the time January rolls around)... but i think its still realistic that the packers are in that handful for a little longer yet...

& unfortunately i can only envision them not going back & me being disappointing as a fan knowing that they maybe squandering away some of best equipped years that had at winning multiple championships
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ccecilnosebleed


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking about this quite a bit over the last couple of weeks, more specifically in regards to what Rodgers is doing at the line of scrimmage pre snap than his leadership in general - more of a result of being THE leader.

AR has made it no secret that he prefers to have the ball in his hands when the game is on the line, and would much rather be throwing than handing off. Although he does seem to put emphasis on the value of a running game, I've wondered if some or maybe quite a bit of the issues with play calling aren't directly MM's fault, but instead have a lot to do with the fact that Rodgers has possibly been given too much power with audibles and is making bad calls at the line/checking out of the run. Not to mention I still feel like he was mucho overconfident this season and never seemed to find his rhythm - especially with his deep ball.
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driftwood


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ccecilnosebleed wrote:
I've been thinking about this quite a bit over the last couple of weeks, more specifically in regards to what Rodgers is doing at the line of scrimmage pre snap than his leadership in general - more of a result of being THE leader.

AR has made it no secret that he prefers to have the ball in his hands when the game is on the line, and would much rather be throwing than handing off. Although he does seem to put emphasis on the value of a running game, I've wondered if some or maybe quite a bit of the issues with play calling aren't directly MM's fault, but instead have a lot to do with the fact that Rodgers has possibly been given too much power with audibles and is making bad calls at the line/checking out of the run. Not to mention I still feel like he was mucho overconfident this season and never seemed to find his rhythm - especially with his deep ball.


thats a valid point too... & really hard for fans like us to really know what happens from the time they enter the huddle to when they snap the ball
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Terranimal


Joined: 31 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems to be a common subject on boards right now....

Though at another board it was in regards to fans not being as involved and loud as in past times.

IMO what this team is missing (and fans) is that player that charges everyone up. Rodgers, Matthews, and Woodson are all leaders that lead by doing it on the field.(nothing wrong with that)

But who now is the player that revs everyone up like Wayne Simmons, Gilbert Brown, White, Butler, Favre, and Cullen Jenkins used to do? Bishop did some of it, but was on IR this year. Who is our Ray Lewis currently?

IMO this is what is missing is that player that brings that fire and fires up everyone else to get involved.
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dcerb44


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can one judge the motivation or lack thereof from interviews? We as fans are not privy to what goes on behind closed doors nor how they players actually are. Sure we can project based upon that information but more often than not it wouldn't toe the line with the initial projection. There's always a thread every year that talks about this. I'm not picking on you drift for writing it but it seems silly to associate motivational issues or what goes on behind the scenes without concrete evidence.

driftwood wrote:
i for one am very nervous about what the future holds for this team pending certain changes... if you were to ask me 2 years ago what i thought i would have been sky high on the endless possibilities this team could accomplish. fast forward to January 2013 & my tone is very different...


What tone is that? What changes do you believe need to be made for the future to be brighter in your eyes? We won a Super Bowl recently and the past two years have made the playoffs including a 15-1 regular season record. We're a perennial playoff team and not many other can say the same.

I would like to include a spreadsheet that I had created that documents the offense and defense for the past three regular seasons.

*Number in () indicates league ranking.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/83cma83rlalc3x9/Capture.JPG


Offensively we saw a dip from the previous season but everyone should of seen that coming. Regardless we are still a top 8 offense in the league on average excluding time of possession.

Defensively however is another animal but the stats don't project the big picture either. Last year was terrible, putting it mildly but the injuries we suffered contribute heavily towards that. This past season we saw quite a bit of improvement in spite of another rash of injuries. Our average league ranking in those categories was 12.3 which is damn near playoff caliber despite the adversity they had to overcome.

If you will, the biggest swing was in turnover margin. We went from a +10 in our Super Bowl year to a +24 and dropped this past season to a +7. That makes a big difference in football.

driftwood wrote:
does this team lack accountability? do they lack leadership from the core players?

this team really doesn't have any outspoken personalities... outside of Finley who we constantly chastise for it... & we assume that Rodgers & Woodson tend to be the guys that the locker room gravitates towards (Woodson specifically with his voice of reasoning type of attitude)

but i ask myself now if that's enough... i feel like maybe the leadership from the players is adequate but i start to question the head coach more than i have in the past...


How do we judge if anyone lacks accountability? TT and MM went through and will continue to go through offseason evaluations like any staff. They don't base their decisions off of emotional driven reactions but as history has shown through methodical analysis. We've seen guys get cut or traded who weren't accountable and one in particular took a lot of balls to make. Not to mention, each time I hear a Packer talk they're always talking about what they need to do to get better. Rodgers will often say he needs to be better. Same goes for some of the defensive guys.

I don't see any reason why we need more outspoken guys on this team? What exactly do you mean by that? Finley gets chastised because he's a moron and it's inherently counter productive to both accountability and morale.

driftwood wrote:
I think there may be a deeper issue than the fragile personality of Rodgers (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but its something to take into account when things don't go well). i have a friend who is very similar, i like to say hes a 'mental midget' when it comes to any type of criticism/pressure but hes incredibly talented at what he does



Rodgers does come across as insensitive at times but like you said doesn't equate to having the ability to lead or not. Leadership shows itself in many forms and often times the great leaders lead by being quiet. Hawk is a prime example of that. Look at how highly the staff holds him. He's a player any coach would love to have. Brings a "blue collared" working attitude everyday, doesn't complain and is reliable. I'll touch more on leadership later in this post.

Reading that article the author brings up the comments by Finley's agent which has no factual basis. It was also an opinion by someone who's not even part of the organization. Same goes with Jenning's sister however I'm not sure why the author even included that one considering it had nothing to do with leadership and sounded like 'sour grapes'. Manning and Brady would not be throwing 5 TD's a game with this cast especially when you consider the drop off in quality of the line. I won't even address the comments by Shannon. Not only didn't he provide evidence but he aired it in a classless manner. Said more about him than anything else.

Regarding the remarks made while the interview with Bishop was being conducted. Some of those questions were stupid. Maybe Aaron acted poorly there, but maybe not either. It was the end of the season after a bitter defeat before guys have had time to collect themselves and move on. Could he have handled it better, sure. That doesn't however give the author free reign to throw a hissy fit and call out Rodgers and his leadership. So he chides Aaron for those remarks during an interview yet basically does the same thing and releases it to a national audience?

Quote:
but i think MM can certainly do some stuff to ease things on offense & complicate things lesser for some of the young players that seemingly are heavily relied on for big roles


In the OP you stated that everyone needed to be held accountable but this deviates from that original thought. McCarthy shouldn't need to dumb down the playbook for the rookies. They need to study and learn the playbook just like every other player and earn what they are given. Every single fanbase complains about playcalling. Doesn't matter what coach you are or how much you've won. I know older folk who talk about it with Lombardi and constantly running the same plays over and over again. It's a moot point that always gets thrown into a discussion about a coach. Hindsight is always easy after the fact.

General_Bean wrote:
"this team lacks fire"


It's because it's a simply way to try and explain something but doesn't correlate to success. What constitutes a lack of fire to begin with? The "rah rah" type of player such as Lewis? I know another poster listed off names but does anyone know what they all have in common with Rodgers and company? The same amount of Super Bowl wins. That type of personality doesn't mean you'll be better. Look at Schwartz for a perfect example of that. Dude is fired up all the time but it hasn't translated into a successful organization. Sometimes that actually rubs people the wrong way and burns bridges instead of mending the gaps between them.

Furthermore I won't be the only one to say this. I know msmre and Palmy would completely agree with me here. Emotion doesn't win ball games, especially at that level of play. Yea the guys might get pumped up for a few minutes with a great motivation speech but that wears off once the game starts. You become focused on the task at hand. Execution, fundamentals and winning the turnover margin is what equals to constant success in football and that's something we've constantly done. McCarthy has always made sure of that.

If there's guys on this team who struggle to play up their potential because they can't get motivated without a speech or an outspoken player can turn in his Packer helmet and walk the other direction.

Quote:
I'm in the boat for firing Dom not because of this game or years prior, but because the staff should know that even after a 13-3, 15-1 season, bouncing out the first round isn't acceptable and will not be tolerated. call me crazy, but I think accountability needs to be held by the whole organization.


So playoffs are no longer a measure of success? Maybe I just don't get what some fans want. We won't win a title every year and it's asinine to think otherwise. That's always the goal and mindset but you don't re-arrange the chairs on the deck because of it, especially with that kind of success.

We have a damn fine team that we root for and with another offseason and growth we should only be stronger next season. Football is very much and will always be like chess. It's a matches game and unfortunately our last two playoff losses were against teams that just outmatched us. Nothing to be ashamed in that, it happens all the time.


Lombardi had two great quotes about leadership that I've always taken to heart.

Quote:
Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile.


As I said earlier, leadership comes in many ways and often it's the quiet leader who's most profound. Thomas Jefferson; one key example, led an entire country this way. Great leaders find ways to motivate people as everyone is different and doesn't respond the same way. Identifying and capitalizing on those is what separates good leaders from the rest. From everything McCarthy has said since being here you can tell that's how he operates. One style doesn't always work.

I'll leave it with my favorite Lombardi quote because this personifies what leadership is all about. Setting the brazen path that others may follow in your footsteps and reap the rewards.

Quote:
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

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pf9 wrote:
This should definitely be McCarthy's swan song. If we're lucky Bret Bielema will come back to this state and coach the Pack next year.
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CentralFC


Joined: 03 Feb 2011
Posts: 3708
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcerb44 wrote:
How can one judge the motivation or lack thereof from interviews? We as fans are not privy to what goes on behind closed doors nor how they players actually are. Sure we can project based upon that information but more often than not it wouldn't toe the line with the initial projection. There's always a thread every year that talks about this. I'm not picking on you drift for writing it but it seems silly to associate motivational issues or what goes on behind the scenes without concrete evidence.

driftwood wrote:
i for one am very nervous about what the future holds for this team pending certain changes... if you were to ask me 2 years ago what i thought i would have been sky high on the endless possibilities this team could accomplish. fast forward to January 2013 & my tone is very different...


What tone is that? What changes do you believe need to be made for the future to be brighter in your eyes? We won a Super Bowl recently and the past two years have made the playoffs including a 15-1 regular season record. We're a perennial playoff team and not many other can say the same.

I would like to include a spreadsheet that I had created that documents the offense and defense for the past three regular seasons.

*Number in () indicates league ranking.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/83cma83rlalc3x9/Capture.JPG


Offensively we saw a dip from the previous season but everyone should of seen that coming. Regardless we are still a top 8 offense in the league on average excluding time of possession.

Defensively however is another animal but the stats don't project the big picture either. Last year was terrible, putting it mildly but the injuries we suffered contribute heavily towards that. This past season we saw quite a bit of improvement in spite of another rash of injuries. Our average league ranking in those categories was 12.3 which is damn near playoff caliber despite the adversity they had to overcome.

If you will, the biggest swing was in turnover margin. We went from a +10 in our Super Bowl year to a +24 and dropped this past season to a +7. That makes a big difference in football.

driftwood wrote:
does this team lack accountability? do they lack leadership from the core players?

this team really doesn't have any outspoken personalities... outside of Finley who we constantly chastise for it... & we assume that Rodgers & Woodson tend to be the guys that the locker room gravitates towards (Woodson specifically with his voice of reasoning type of attitude)

but i ask myself now if that's enough... i feel like maybe the leadership from the players is adequate but i start to question the head coach more than i have in the past...


How do we judge if anyone lacks accountability? TT and MM went through and will continue to go through offseason evaluations like any staff. They don't base their decisions off of emotional driven reactions but as history has shown through methodical analysis. We've seen guys get cut or traded who weren't accountable and one in particular took a lot of balls to make. Not to mention, each time I hear a Packer talk they're always talking about what they need to do to get better. Rodgers will often say he needs to be better. Same goes for some of the defensive guys.

I don't see any reason why we need more outspoken guys on this team? What exactly do you mean by that? Finley gets chastised because he's a moron and it's inherently counter productive to both accountability and morale.

driftwood wrote:
I think there may be a deeper issue than the fragile personality of Rodgers (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but its something to take into account when things don't go well). i have a friend who is very similar, i like to say hes a 'mental midget' when it comes to any type of criticism/pressure but hes incredibly talented at what he does



Rodgers does come across as insensitive at times but like you said doesn't equate to having the ability to lead or not. Leadership shows itself in many forms and often times the great leaders lead by being quiet. Hawk is a prime example of that. Look at how highly the staff holds him. He's a player any coach would love to have. Brings a "blue collared" working attitude everyday, doesn't complain and is reliable. I'll touch more on leadership later in this post.

Reading that article the author brings up the comments by Finley's agent which has no factual basis. It was also an opinion by someone who's not even part of the organization. Same goes with Jenning's sister however I'm not sure why the author even included that one considering it had nothing to do with leadership and sounded like 'sour grapes'. Manning and Brady would not be throwing 5 TD's a game with this cast especially when you consider the drop off in quality of the line. I won't even address the comments by Shannon. Not only didn't he provide evidence but he aired it in a classless manner. Said more about him than anything else.

Regarding the remarks made while the interview with Bishop was being conducted. Some of those questions were stupid. Maybe Aaron acted poorly there, but maybe not either. It was the end of the season after a bitter defeat before guys have had time to collect themselves and move on. Could he have handled it better, sure. That doesn't however give the author free reign to throw a hissy fit and call out Rodgers and his leadership. So he chides Aaron for those remarks during an interview yet basically does the same thing and releases it to a national audience?

Quote:
but i think MM can certainly do some stuff to ease things on offense & complicate things lesser for some of the young players that seemingly are heavily relied on for big roles


In the OP you stated that everyone needed to be held accountable but this deviates from that original thought. McCarthy shouldn't need to dumb down the playbook for the rookies. They need to study and learn the playbook just like every other player and earn what they are given. Every single fanbase complains about playcalling. Doesn't matter what coach you are or how much you've won. I know older folk who talk about it with Lombardi and constantly running the same plays over and over again. It's a moot point that always gets thrown into a discussion about a coach. Hindsight is always easy after the fact.

General_Bean wrote:
"this team lacks fire"


It's because it's a simply way to try and explain something but doesn't correlate to success. What constitutes a lack of fire to begin with? The "rah rah" type of player such as Lewis? I know another poster listed off names but does anyone know what they all have in common with Rodgers and company? The same amount of Super Bowl wins. That type of personality doesn't mean you'll be better. Look at Schwartz for a perfect example of that. Dude is fired up all the time but it hasn't translated into a successful organization. Sometimes that actually rubs people the wrong way and burns bridges instead of mending the gaps between them.

Furthermore I won't be the only one to say this. I know msmre and Palmy would completely agree with me here. Emotion doesn't win ball games, especially at that level of play. Yea the guys might get pumped up for a few minutes with a great motivation speech but that wears off once the game starts. You become focused on the task at hand. Execution, fundamentals and winning the turnover margin is what equals to constant success in football and that's something we've constantly done. McCarthy has always made sure of that.

If there's guys on this team who struggle to play up their potential because they can't get motivated without a speech or an outspoken player can turn in his Packer helmet and walk the other direction.

Quote:
I'm in the boat for firing Dom not because of this game or years prior, but because the staff should know that even after a 13-3, 15-1 season, bouncing out the first round isn't acceptable and will not be tolerated. call me crazy, but I think accountability needs to be held by the whole organization.


So playoffs are no longer a measure of success? Maybe I just don't get what some fans want. We won't win a title every year and it's asinine to think otherwise. That's always the goal and mindset but you don't re-arrange the chairs on the deck because of it, especially with that kind of success.

We have a damn fine team that we root for and with another offseason and growth we should only be stronger next season. Football is very much and will always be like chess. It's a matches game and unfortunately our last two playoff losses were against teams that just outmatched us. Nothing to be ashamed in that, it happens all the time.


Lombardi had two great quotes about leadership that I've always taken to heart.

Quote:
Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile.


As I said earlier, leadership comes in many ways and often it's the quiet leader who's most profound. Thomas Jefferson; one key example, led an entire country this way. Great leaders find ways to motivate people as everyone is different and doesn't respond the same way. Identifying and capitalizing on those is what separates good leaders from the rest. From everything McCarthy has said since being here you can tell that's how he operates. One style doesn't always work.

I'll leave it with my favorite Lombardi quote because this personifies what leadership is all about. Setting the brazen path that others may follow in your footsteps and reap the rewards.

Quote:
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.


Wausau East > DC Everest Wink

But really, great write up here. Nothing more can really be added at this point.
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I'd argue Jordy is probably around the 30th-40th best receiver in the NFL, maybe 50th.
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dcerb44


Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wausau East > DC Everest Wink

But really, great write up here. Nothing more can really be added at this point.[/quote]

East grad? I scoff at that notion though, have the bling to back it up. Wink

Funny enough though the woman is an East grad and we go back and forth all the time with it especially during the season. To be fair though, the program has been down for the past few years so it's ok to laugh now. Not the dominate program I was part of that's for sure.
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pf9 wrote:
This should definitely be McCarthy's swan song. If we're lucky Bret Bielema will come back to this state and coach the Pack next year.
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General_Bean


Joined: 07 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcerb44 wrote:

General_Bean wrote:
"this team lacks fire"


It's because it's a simply way to try and explain something but doesn't correlate to success. What constitutes a lack of fire to begin with? The "rah rah" type of player such as Lewis? I know another poster listed off names but does anyone know what they all have in common with Rodgers and company? The same amount of Super Bowl wins. That type of personality doesn't mean you'll be better. Look at Schwartz for a perfect example of that. Dude is fired up all the time but it hasn't translated into a successful organization. Sometimes that actually rubs people the wrong way and burns bridges instead of mending the gaps between them.

Furthermore I won't be the only one to say this. I know msmre and Palmy would completely agree with me here. Emotion doesn't win ball games, especially at that level of play. Yea the guys might get pumped up for a few minutes with a great motivation speech but that wears off once the game starts. You become focused on the task at hand. Execution, fundamentals and winning the turnover margin is what equals to constant success in football and that's something we've constantly done. McCarthy has always made sure of that.

If there's guys on this team who struggle to play up their potential because they can't get motivated without a speech or an outspoken player can turn in his Packer helmet and walk the other direction.

Quote:
I'm in the boat for firing Dom not because of this game or years prior, but because the staff should know that even after a 13-3, 15-1 season, bouncing out the first round isn't acceptable and will not be tolerated. call me crazy, but I think accountability needs to be held by the whole organization.


So playoffs are no longer a measure of success? Maybe I just don't get what some fans want. We won't win a title every year and it's asinine to think otherwise. That's always the goal and mindset but you don't re-arrange the chairs on the deck because of it, especially with that kind of success.

We have a damn fine team that we root for and with another offseason and growth we should only be stronger next season. Football is very much and will always be like chess. It's a matches game and unfortunately our last two playoff losses were against teams that just outmatched us. Nothing to be ashamed in that, it happens all the time.


What I believe constitutes a "fire" person is when Ross fumbles a football and someone calls the team over and tells them there's plenty of football left in this game. All I saw was a depleted hopeless team out there running all over the place like a peewee football team. There's 1 thing to lose a game that we should've won (think a midseason game against a team with a losing record), but the playoffs you'd figure they'd try to keep up. Flat out embarrassed and someone has to be held accountable. You say "these things happen", well It's been 2 years in a row. Should we keep with the "we should be happy with making the playoffs" attitude? I know it's not easy, but I expect a better performance.

and yes, the playoffs are a measure of success, some teams would give alot to get there. But when you expect this team to compete in championships or superbowls every year because you feel we have the roster to do so, being embarrassed in back to back divisional rounds is a let down of a season. I also expect the players to feel the same way. So I apologize if just making the playoffs isn't exactly good enough, plenty of teams have eras where they make it and have nothing to show for it. All that's left is a scorned memory of the past.

**Edit** I mean you make great points and I know nothing about what's going on within the organization. I do get a bit over dramatic and just would like to see the Pack compete in these games.
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Last edited by General_Bean on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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driftwood


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 6097
Location: Milwaukee
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcerb44 wrote:
How can one judge the motivation or lack thereof from interviews? We as fans are not privy to what goes on behind closed doors nor how they players actually are. Sure we can project based upon that information but more often than not it wouldn't toe the line with the initial projection. There's always a thread every year that talks about this. I'm not picking on you drift for writing it but it seems silly to associate motivational issues or what goes on behind the scenes without concrete evidence.


i honestly have no idea what goes on behind the scenes & unfortunately only have interviews & other writers experience to base my opinions on (you kind of narrowed it down in the rest of your quoted responses too)...

but with that said, sometimes the writers don't always have agendas & the input they have holds way more weight than any of us fans can speak for

so i took this article & tried to dig a tad deeper


also i want to clarify... there is nothing wrong with this team talent wise IMO (injuries took a toll & hurt, along with other random things)... were very fortunate to have a perennial playoff team & im not complaining about that

the main thing I wanted to pick on was the difference of this team playing in January as opposed to playing in February...

there are very few NFL fan bases that have had it better than us for the past 20'ish years... but i feel like this current team has the ability to be in a category all by themselves if they can get another 1 or 2 titles in the next handful of years

call me greedy, but i want this team to maximize as best they can on a opportunity while they are at a peak & feel the last 2 years have sort of been wasted in a way
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