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Should he stay or should he go: Aqib Talib
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goldfishwars wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Canadian_Patriot wrote:
He needs to stay. Arrington needs to go.

and then we need another CB that can compete for a starting spot with Dennard and Talib. If Talib walks, I may walk off a bridge.


Who replaces Arrington?

I think people are really underestimating how hard it is to find a serviceable #3 CB.


I think he's been pretty serviceable as a #3.


I agree. I'd go as far as to day he's a good #3 CB. I'd absolutely bring him back if they can get him for reasonable #3 CB money. I doubt anyone would give him starters $$ but you never know. There are a lot of stupid GM's and a dearth of CB's in the NFL.
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huge proponent of keeping Talib, he really is the identity of our Secondary IMO. People have clamored over DMC's transition to Safety, but I think it's been Talib's ability to make plays on the ball and man up 1-on-1 that was the catalyst for our second half improvement.

Sign him up, offer him a market contract in terms of a Tier 2/3 CB and plug that hole, cos God knows, the Pats can't draft a DB for s***.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
cos God knows, the Pats can't draft a DB for s***.


Dennard and McCourty were both drafted and both played extremely well this year. Asante Samuel worked out pretty well too.
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
cos God knows, the Pats can't draft a DB for s***.


Dennard and McCourty were both drafted and both played extremely well this year. Asante Samuel worked out pretty well too.


McCourty as a CB though, mcmurtry, was pretty dang terrible in Years 2 and 3.

Wheatley, Wilhite, Butler, Dowling, Wilson, Chung, Meriweather ...

If you wade through enough crap, you'll eventually come out with something worthwhile.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
Huge proponent of keeping Talib, he really is the identity of our Secondary IMO. People have clamored over DMC's transition to Safety, but I think it's been Talib's ability to make plays on the ball and man up 1-on-1 that was the catalyst for our second half improvement.
Talib only played in something like 22 of the 36 quarters since he got to NE. Hard to give him too much credit when he wasn't even on the field.
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
Huge proponent of keeping Talib, he really is the identity of our Secondary IMO. People have clamored over DMC's transition to Safety, but I think it's been Talib's ability to make plays on the ball and man up 1-on-1 that was the catalyst for our second half improvement.
Talib only played in something like 22 of the 36 quarters since he got to NE. Hard to give him too much credit when he wasn't even on the field.


It was certainly noticeable when Talib was on the field though. I think Dennard liked playing alongside him too and of course, anything that keeps Arrington from playing outside is a plus, even if it's only for one quarter!
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
cos God knows, the Pats can't draft a DB for s***.


Dennard and McCourty were both drafted and both played extremely well this year. Asante Samuel worked out pretty well too.


McCourty as a CB though, mcmurtry, was pretty dang terrible in Years 2 and 3.

Wheatley, Wilhite, Butler, Dowling, Wilson, Chung, Meriweather ...

If you wade through enough crap, you'll eventually come out with something worthwhile.


What are you talking about? McCourty was excellent as a CB this year.

Wheatley and Butler were total flops, I'll grant you that.

Dowling, we don't know about but it certainly doesn't look good.

Meriweather and Chung weren't huge successes but neither were they total flops.

Including Wilhite, a 4th round pick, is ridiculous.

And Wilson? Tavon Wilson? I'll be the first to say he didn't show a ton this year but writing him off now is absurd.

Here's my problem with what you said - you say the team can't draft DB's. Yet their 2 best DB's this year (over 18 games) were drafted. Yet, their hit/miss ratio on DB's isn't really much different than most teams'.

We have this same issue every year around draft time, people pan the Pats for drafting so many flops. Well, they do. But they also draft a lot of really good players. The thing is, they draft a much higher quantity of players than most teams, so of course they're going to have more flops. DB's, like WR's have really low success rates in the pros. How many teams draft DB's well?

If there is a valid criticism to be found here is that the Pats spend too much draft capital vs. free agency dollars in an exceedingly high variable market (DB's) and that they tend to take chances on guys with injury flags. I think those are far more arguable points than "they can't draft DB's well". Over the last 3 years they've drafted an excellent DB (McCourty) and a very promising CB (Dennard). Tough to criticize that.
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
cos God knows, the Pats can't draft a DB for s***.


Dennard and McCourty were both drafted and both played extremely well this year. Asante Samuel worked out pretty well too.


McCourty as a CB though, mcmurtry, was pretty dang terrible in Years 2 and 3.

Wheatley, Wilhite, Butler, Dowling, Wilson, Chung, Meriweather ...

If you wade through enough crap, you'll eventually come out with something worthwhile.


What are you talking about? McCourty was excellent as a CB this year.

Wheatley and Butler were total flops, I'll grant you that.

Dowling, we don't know about but it certainly doesn't look good.

Meriweather and Chung weren't huge successes but neither were they total flops.

Including Wilhite, a 4th round pick, is ridiculous.

And Wilson? Tavon Wilson? I'll be the first to say he didn't show a ton this year but writing him off now is absurd.

Here's my problem with what you said - you say the team can't draft DB's. Yet their 2 best DB's this year (over 18 games) were drafted. Yet, their hit/miss ratio on DB's isn't really much different than most teams'.

We have this same issue every year around draft time, people pan the Pats for drafting so many flops. Well, they do. But they also draft a lot of really good players. The thing is, they draft a much higher quantity of players than most teams, so of course they're going to have more flops. DB's, like WR's have really low success rates in the pros. How many teams draft DB's well?

If there is a valid criticism to be found here is that the Pats spend too much draft capital vs. free agency dollars in an exceedingly high variable market (DB's) and that they tend to take chances on guys with injury flags. I think those are far more arguable points than "they can't draft DB's well". Over the last 3 years they've drafted an excellent DB (McCourty) and a very promising CB (Dennard). Tough to criticize that.


You don't have to sell me on the Pats Quality/Quantity approach on draft picks. I'm firmly entrenched on that bandwagon. I've fought that battle many times in NFL Gen.

But the thing is we spend HIGH picks on these guys, and lots of them.

I like DMC, I like Dennard (we really pulled a rabbit out the hat there) but when you look at what we've spent on these guys - Dowling, Butler, Chung, Wilson, Meriweather - ALL taken in the Top 50 picks. I guess I just expect better than a 2/7 hit rate on these guys.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
cos God knows, the Pats can't draft a DB for s***.


Dennard and McCourty were both drafted and both played extremely well this year. Asante Samuel worked out pretty well too.


McCourty as a CB though, mcmurtry, was pretty dang terrible in Years 2 and 3.

Wheatley, Wilhite, Butler, Dowling, Wilson, Chung, Meriweather ...

If you wade through enough crap, you'll eventually come out with something worthwhile.


What are you talking about? McCourty was excellent as a CB this year.

Wheatley and Butler were total flops, I'll grant you that.

Dowling, we don't know about but it certainly doesn't look good.

Meriweather and Chung weren't huge successes but neither were they total flops.

Including Wilhite, a 4th round pick, is ridiculous.

And Wilson? Tavon Wilson? I'll be the first to say he didn't show a ton this year but writing him off now is absurd.

Here's my problem with what you said - you say the team can't draft DB's. Yet their 2 best DB's this year (over 18 games) were drafted. Yet, their hit/miss ratio on DB's isn't really much different than most teams'.

We have this same issue every year around draft time, people pan the Pats for drafting so many flops. Well, they do. But they also draft a lot of really good players. The thing is, they draft a much higher quantity of players than most teams, so of course they're going to have more flops. DB's, like WR's have really low success rates in the pros. How many teams draft DB's well?

If there is a valid criticism to be found here is that the Pats spend too much draft capital vs. free agency dollars in an exceedingly high variable market (DB's) and that they tend to take chances on guys with injury flags. I think those are far more arguable points than "they can't draft DB's well". Over the last 3 years they've drafted an excellent DB (McCourty) and a very promising CB (Dennard). Tough to criticize that.


You don't have to sell me on the Pats Quality/Quantity approach on draft picks. I'm firmly entrenched on that bandwagon. I've fought that battle many times in NFL Gen.

But the thing is we spend HIGH picks on these guys, and lots of them.

I like DMC, I like Dennard (we really pulled a rabbit out the hat there) but when you look at what we've spent on these guys - Dowling, Butler, Chung, Wilson, Meriweather - ALL taken in the Top 50 picks. I guess I just expect better than a 2/7 hit rate on these guys.


Right, but you're assuming Dowling and Wilson are total flops. I think it's also a bit disingenuous to qualify Chung as a miss (and I'm no fan of Chung).
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked Dennard coming out of College and so did CP.

I just hope he doesn't have that dreaded 2nd year slump that Devin, Butler, the Wonder Twins and Ras have gone through.
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Canadian_Patriot


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinjaZX6R wrote:
I liked Dennard coming out of College and so did CP.

I just hope he doesn't have that dreaded 2nd year slump that Devin, Butler, the Wonder Twins and Ras have gone through.


Hard to predict something like that. But I'd be shocked if he did. Still jiggling with glee that we were able to draft him in the 7th round, just ludicrous. His best performance's are very much ahead of him.

We've been pretty close to 50/50 with our drafting of secondary players IMO. Lots of misses, but definitely a lot of key contributors as well.

As for the Arrington discussion, I'm by no means an Arrington hater, I just think the kid can't cover. I suppose if he's cheap we can hang on to him as our nickel back, but I'd still rather get a guy that can be competitive with Talib/Dennard and let whoever "loses" out on the top 2 CB spots, play NB, and let Arrington serve as the 4th CB.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canadian_Patriot wrote:
NinjaZX6R wrote:
I liked Dennard coming out of College and so did CP.

I just hope he doesn't have that dreaded 2nd year slump that Devin, Butler, the Wonder Twins and Ras have gone through.


Hard to predict something like that. But I'd be shocked if he did. Still jiggling with glee that we were able to draft him in the 7th round, just ludicrous. His best performance's are very much ahead of him.

We've been pretty close to 50/50 with our drafting of secondary players IMO. Lots of misses, but definitely a lot of key contributors as well.

As for the Arrington discussion, I'm by no means an Arrington hater, I just think the kid can't cover. I suppose if he's cheap we can hang on to him as our nickel back, but I'd still rather get a guy that can be competitive with Talib/Dennard and let whoever "loses" out on the top 2 CB spots, play NB, and let Arrington serve as the 4th CB.


Who is that "guy" though? Any veteran who fits that mold is either going to be a fringe starter and want more money than the Pats can afford or a high pick. Or, it's going to be some other team's version of Arrington.

As it is, I think you're wrong about his ability to cover. He's not great - especially outside - but he's more than serviceable in the slot and is capable of playing well (and capable of playing poorly) outside. He covered Stevie Johnson extremely well this year and did a nice job inside down the stretch.
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Canadian_Patriot


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Canadian_Patriot wrote:
NinjaZX6R wrote:
I liked Dennard coming out of College and so did CP.

I just hope he doesn't have that dreaded 2nd year slump that Devin, Butler, the Wonder Twins and Ras have gone through.


Hard to predict something like that. But I'd be shocked if he did. Still jiggling with glee that we were able to draft him in the 7th round, just ludicrous. His best performance's are very much ahead of him.

We've been pretty close to 50/50 with our drafting of secondary players IMO. Lots of misses, but definitely a lot of key contributors as well.

As for the Arrington discussion, I'm by no means an Arrington hater, I just think the kid can't cover. I suppose if he's cheap we can hang on to him as our nickel back, but I'd still rather get a guy that can be competitive with Talib/Dennard and let whoever "loses" out on the top 2 CB spots, play NB, and let Arrington serve as the 4th CB.


Who is that "guy" though? Any veteran who fits that mold is either going to be a fringe starter and want more money than the Pats can afford or a high pick. Or, it's going to be some other team's version of Arrington.

As it is, I think you're wrong about his ability to cover. He's not great - especially outside - but he's more than serviceable in the slot and is capable of playing well (and capable of playing poorly) outside. He covered Stevie Johnson extremely well this year and did a nice job inside down the stretch.


Well as long as he's not outside, because he's proven incapable of effectively covering #1 and #2 NFL wide outs. Teams with strong slot receivers would beat him like a drum as well. I realize we're talking nickel corners here, and they're obviously not all going to be terrific cover guys, but I'm fed up with seeing Arrington casing guys around outside the numbers. If Talib is healthy and Dennard is out their, sure, we can get by with Arrington inside. But both of those guys missed significant time this season so I don't feel very good about Arrington having to be bumped up the line up in the event someone goes down.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canadian_Patriot wrote:


Well as long as he's not outside, because he's proven incapable of effectively covering #1 and #2 NFL wide outs. Teams with strong slot receivers would beat him like a drum as well. I realize we're talking nickel corners here, and they're obviously not all going to be terrific cover guys, but I'm fed up with seeing Arrington casing guys around outside the numbers. If Talib is healthy and Dennard is out their, sure, we can get by with Arrington inside. But both of those guys missed significant time this season so I don't feel very good about Arrington having to be bumped up the line up in the event someone goes down.


You're still really undervaluing him. He's proven he IS capable of covering #1 and #2 WR's (or do you not feel Stevie Johnson qualifies as such?). As for "strong slot receivers beating him like a drum" - that's true of most nickel CB's. Luckily there are about 5 "strong" slot receivers out there. Arrington - after Talib was brought in and he moved back to the slot - put up some of the best numbers in the NFL for a CB. He's a good slot CB. Period. Not great, and not a guy who you want forced into a long-term outside role. But I don't see many better alternatives out there and the idea that he is easily upgradable as a slot CB is totally crazy IMO.

Who are some guys who would be realistic #3 CB's that you'd prefer?
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Canadian_Patriot


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Canadian_Patriot wrote:


Well as long as he's not outside, because he's proven incapable of effectively covering #1 and #2 NFL wide outs. Teams with strong slot receivers would beat him like a drum as well. I realize we're talking nickel corners here, and they're obviously not all going to be terrific cover guys, but I'm fed up with seeing Arrington casing guys around outside the numbers. If Talib is healthy and Dennard is out their, sure, we can get by with Arrington inside. But both of those guys missed significant time this season so I don't feel very good about Arrington having to be bumped up the line up in the event someone goes down.


You're still really undervaluing him. He's proven he IS capable of covering #1 and #2 WR's (or do you not feel Stevie Johnson qualifies as such?). As for "strong slot receivers beating him like a drum" - that's true of most nickel CB's. Luckily there are about 5 "strong" slot receivers out there. Arrington - after Talib was brought in and he moved back to the slot - put up some of the best numbers in the NFL for a CB. He's a good slot CB. Period. Not great, and not a guy who you want forced into a long-term outside role. But I don't see many better alternatives out there and the idea that he is easily upgradable as a slot CB is totally crazy IMO.

Who are some guys who would be realistic #3 CB's that you'd prefer?


I'm in agreement that he's an okay NB, my problem is that there needs to be another CB on this roster closer to Talib's calibre ahead of Arrington, because that 3rd CB is going to inevitably see time outside when injury's occur and Arrington has for the most part, been brutal outside.

There's a handful of FA's out there this year that can come in and do everything Arrington provides and not be such a liability in coverage.

As for guys I'd like to see here?

DJ Moore
Jerraud Powers
Mike Jenkins

I'd rather see any of those guys here over Arrington. Not saying they are giant upgrades, but I view them all as safer in coverage than Arrington.
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